What are the odds of Sansa and Tyrion ending up together?

[Ser_Patreck]

Yes, but that´s not the problem.

Ser Patreck, my problem with Tyrion is, that he keeps this incident alive by reenacting his marriage with his "first love" and yet doesn´t accept that this was a crime he needs to come to terms with. (And I too put a large portion of the blame on Tywin, but that doesn´t relieve Tyrion of his guilt)

I was merrily identifying myself a lot with Tyrion at that point and though I did hurt some friends in jealousy in my young teens, I couldn´t come to grips with Tyrion´s action towards Tysha, no matter how hard I tried. I see no way to forgive him for that especially since he doesn´t adress his guilt in a proper way, but only in this perverted roleplaying that shows that emotionally he knows ´s convinced that this was his one true love, he betrayed.

And even though he gives the good advise to Jon Snow to accept who he is and make it his strength, he himself is incapable of this. He believes that being a Lannister defines his only value, it´s so sad and such a waste. Of course part of the blame goes to the society of Westeros, but other people in the story are capeable of it and Tyrion with all his abilities should be too.

He does accept that it was a crime. He does accept it was terrible. He doesn't keep thinking about it and analyzing rationally the aspects of it because he's traumatized by the whole experience. He can't een begin to think about it without going into a downward spiral of self-hate mixed with self-pity. That's trauma. Tyrion has never had proper emotional maturing. He has never had proper relationship growing up. This kind of thing only make the problem exponentially worse.

And see, I see a lot of "internet tough guy" in this "Yeah, Tyrion should just develop some self-esteem"-kind of posts. It's not so easy. It's not something you develop, it's not something you just consciously choose and then bam, you're a healthy human being. Tyrion is damaged, and his environment only works towards widening this damage. That thing self-help book use to say that a person is wholly responsible for her own success and if she fails it's because she isn't trying hard enough? It's not only a lie but a counter-productive line of thought. It lays more guilt atop the existing guilt, more failure atop the existing failure. So, no, sorry, but the argument Tyrion should just grow out of it doesn't hold any water.

[Ser_Patreck]

This isn't a shipping thread though. The OP asked the odds of them staying together, based upon evidence from the books.

And I've stated - somewhat facetiously - my beliefs regarding that in the first page of this thread. Here, I was addressing a completely different thing - Someone posted a picture of Tyrion and Sansa's wedding, I posted another I thought was better looking, even if non-canon, and more pleasing to me.

Actually, I and many others have said we have no problem with a non-romantic alliance, despite what you seem to think. The point we are refuting is that this marriage can be successful in any way.

I was talking directly with brashcandy, here. And any non-romantic alliance will have to work through the whole marriage thing. It's not like they can simply forget it. It's an unresolved plot, and if they ever met again, it will be addressed.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

The entire problem is that you seem to consider the slightest mention of Tyrion/Sansa interaction (Even non-romantic) as a personal insult.

Well yes, an insult to my intelligence. :lol:

[Lykos]

Ser_Patreck, I know it´s not an easy process but I don´t see Tyrion having even entered into it. And I would really enjoy seeing a Tyrion redemption arc, but I see no chance for that in only two books and that with the fact that Tyrion has become worse in Dance, with his focus on destroying Cersei instead of healing himself.

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

when he rides in on dragonback and torches the castle at KL where Sansa suffered so much, that'll go a long ways toward him not being seen as one of the hated Lannisters. A Lannister, but less hated, and disassociated from the ones who caused her pain.

And I'm not saying they'd tongue each other real hard in the hallways of the highschool during every break between classes. It wouldn't be about heat. It'd be about LF being on the verge of forcing Sansa into some arranged crap all over again and Tyrion landing on the patio of the castle and saying Not so fast buddy boy, because I see now that you caused this entire war so your scam is up, and Sansa seeing that she's being given a way out, and her taking a leap of faith and getting away from LF, and Tyrion forgetting about where whores go (having been taught by the poignant loss of Penny [to disease] that he does have the capacity to care for someone still) and Sansa sacrificing her childhood dreams of dashing knights in order to do what's best for getting the north back on its feet again in troubled times.

So, Sansa will realize childish dreams by someone flying a dragon and saving her from LF? That doesn't sound right. The hero coming on a fucking dragon to save the damsel right when the villain is about to complete his plan and then they fly away to be happy together does sound like a story. The only difference is ugly dwarf instead of handsome price. If that happens, I really don't see a point to Sansa's entire character arc.

Also, why would Sansa automatically consider Tyrion good for the North? Hating his family doesn't make him good for her. Dany hates the Lannisters, but at this time hates the Starks. So, anti-Lannister isn't necessarily pro-Stark.

[Pellaeon]

Just a thought about the marriage: If the only reason would be that Sansa has a plotarmor so she can't marry somebody until the marriage is undone, GRRM could let her wed Lancel and wait with his joining by the warrior sons, there must be more than that

EDIT: I support Ser_Patreck and his arguments

[ElizaMartell]

when he rides in on dragonback and torches the castle at KL where Sansa suffered so much, that'll go a long ways toward him not being seen as one of the hated Lannisters. A Lannister, but less hated, and disassociated from the ones who caused her pain.

And I'm not saying they'd tongue each other real hard in the hallways of the highschool during every break between classes. It wouldn't be about heat. It'd be about LF being on the verge of forcing Sansa into some arranged crap all over again and Tyrion landing on the patio of the castle and saying Not so fast buddy boy, because I see now that you caused this entire war so your scam is up, and Sansa seeing that she's being given a way out, and her taking a leap of faith and getting away from LF, and Tyrion forgetting about where whores go (having been taught by the poignant loss of Penny [to disease] that he does have the capacity to care for someone still) and Sansa sacrificing her childhood dreams of dashing knights in order to do what's best for getting the north back on its feet again in troubled times.

What rubbish. The idea that Sansa needs to stop 'daydreaming' for a perfect knight yet Tyrion somehow deserves some sort for trophy wife for all his 'pain' is more than a bit ridiculous and hypercritical. Let alone the notion that he would somehow be her 'hero' while everyone decries her for not doing enough. I wonder if half the people who have it hard for Tyrion/Sansa even consider how many mindflips one has to do to realise how hypercritical the arguments against Sansa's 'shallowness' is.

[Ser_Patreck]

Well yes, an insult to my intelligence. :lol:

Your intelligence is surprisingly fragile, then. :P

Ser_Patreck, I know it´s not an easy process but I don´t see Tyrion having even entered into it. And I would really enjoy seeing a Tyrion redemption arc, but I see no chance for that in only two books and that with the fact that Tyrion has become worse in Dance, with his focus on destroying Cersei instead of healing himself.

How could he enter this process, tough? Someone who's in the deep abyss doesn't come out of it by herself. Someone has to reach out, pull and prod a bit, open the way, so that the traumatized may being walking with her own feet. Tyrion has no one of the sort. For example, no one knows about the Tysha business enough to go through it with him. Few other people seem to understand his love/hate relationship with with father and sister. Say, Sam, for example, had an horrible father, but he had a loving mother and sisters, and then Jon and Gilly. What did Tyrion have? Bronn? Shae? Penny might be this for him, but she's simply too naive to witness the depths of Tyrion's problems.

I do want Tyrion to have a healing-arc (Not a redemption arc), and I hope he does get one... But for that, we have to be willing to accept he's a damaged person in the first place, and not an immoral ass.

[The Mother of The Others]

anti-Lannister isn't necessarily pro-Stark.

he's Stark-neutral, which is a big step up from the Rock's current stance as a bunch of Stark haters. And don't we all sort of agree that R+L=J is nicely positioned to be the thing that warms Daenerys up to the Starks?

The only difference is ugly dwarf instead of handsome prince.

you got it. that's it. still allows Martin to buck the trend, perhaps even having Tyrion mock the cliche while performing it. I'm coming up with this stuff as we speak, so her character arc would still be meaningful because...................... it's going to take all the bravery and political acumen she's gathered to walk the path ahead and reshape the world, and all her time spent with fakers has prepared her to recognize a real knight in shining armor when she sees one, even if he's not shiny and not a knight and she has to look down instead of up to see him. Whatever. Everybody discounts the possibility, which is why I like it, sort of like how that guy in the ADwD section of the forum has his Heresy topic (x20). But I'm done now.

[Kukushka]

Get over being a Lannister? He is a member of a family that destroyed her own and kept her a prisoner. It's like telling someone that their former kidnapper would be a great love match. Completely unrealistic.

He's a Lannister by name only. He hated his father, he hates his sister, he hated his nephew. He hates all the same people Sansa hates.

And he killed Tywin. To date, he's killed more Lannisters than any Starks have.

So no, it's not like telling someone that their former kidnapper would be a great love match. It's like telling someone that the brother of their former kidnapper - who hates their former kidnapper and has killed one of the greatest forces protected their former kidnapper - would be a good match.Not exactly the same.

EDIT to add: While I was reading the series for the first time and Tyrion and Sansa were married, I thought that they would ally against the Lannisters. Didn't happen, but I do still find it a plausible plotline had Joffrey not died.

[Kittykatknits]

He's a Lannister by name only. He hated his father, he hates his sister, he hated his nephew. He hates all the same people Sansa hates.

And he killed Tywin. To date, he's killed more Lannisters than any Starks have.

So no, it's not like telling someone that their former kidnapper would be a great love match. It's like telling someone that the brother of their former kidnapper - who hates their former kidnapper and has killed one of the greatest forces protected their former kidnapper - would be a good match.Not exactly the same.

Except for when he added the title husband to jailor or when he implied that her treatment was dependent upon Jaime's in her presence - while she was still being beaten, and put Lannister interests above her own rather consistently.

[Lyanna Stark]

About 60-something-%, I'd say.

I wouldn't say I've always wanted to see that, but I'm slowly coming around to the idea...

May I ask you why?

Is this from a Tyrion perspective or a Sansa perspective, or both? What do you think they have in common? What could Sansa offer Tyrion apart from her claim and her looks? What could Tyrion offer her?

How do you, realistically, think they can get over their mutual distrust and the fact that their families have been at eachothers throats? How should Sansa get over that Tyrion married her knowing something bad was most likely going to happen to her brother? And accepting that marriage while she was an underage hostage? (I am talking from Sansa's view here where he promised her at first he was only a little lion and would not savage her, but then agrees to marry her on what looks to her as Tywin's and Cersei's orders.) How do you expect Sansa to become attracted to Tyrion?

I'm honestly interested since I think there is zero interest from Sansa's side towards Tyrion and the interest from Tyrion is based on her looks and her claim: he cares very little for Sansa's personality. With only two novels left, and Tyrion on a different continent, is it feasible to even consider a build up of any type of relationship between these two, what with all the trouble they have to get through to even communicate, let alone build any type of trust or respect.

[Kukushka]

Except for when he added the title husband to jailor or when he implied that her treatment was dependent upon Jaime's in her presence - while she was still being beaten, and put Lannister interests above her own rather consistently.

When HE added the title husband? When did HE do that? I seem to remember that he was being just as coerced as she.

[Ser_Patreck]

May I ask you why?

Is this from a Tyrion perspective or a Sansa perspective, or both? What do you think they have in common? What could Sansa offer Tyrion apart from her claim and her looks? What could Tyrion offer her?

How do you, realistically, think they can get over their mutual distrust and the fact that their families have been at eachothers throats? How should Sansa get over that Tyrion married her knowing something bad was most likely going to happen to her brother? And accepting that marriage while she was an underage hostage? (I am talking from Sansa's view here where he promised her at first he was only a little lion and would not savage her, but then agrees to marry her on what looks to her as Tywin's and Cersei's orders.) How do you expect Sansa to become attracted to Tyrion?

I'm honestly interested since I think there is zero interest from Sansa's side towards Tyrion and the interest from Tyrion is based on her looks and her claim: he cares very little for Sansa's personality. With only two novels left, and Tyrion on a different continent, is it feasible to even consider a build up of any type of relationship between these two, what with all the trouble they have to get through to even communicate, let alone build any type of trust or respect.

Why I believe they have ~60% chance of ending up together, or why I am slowly coming around to it? I'm serious, it'll affect my answer.

[Kittykatknits]

When HE added the title husband? When did HE do that? I seem to remember that he was being just as coerced as she.

Just looked at the text, he was the one that said the vows.

[Lyanna Stark]

When HE added the title husband? When did HE do that? I seem to remember that he was being just as coerced as she.

Was he? Jaime was able to say now, Cersei was able to say now.

Sansa was threatened by Cersei with a beating if she did not comply. Cersei also said that she would be dragged to the altar kicking and screaming if that was what she wanted. Sansa has a beating to look forward to.

What threat did Tywin hold over Tyrion? What beatings did he promise? Did he threaten to disinherit him of Casterly Rock? (Which he already had, btw Tywin thought that was Jaime's).

The threat Tywin used was that maybe he'd try and marry Tyrion to Lollys instead of the 13 year old hostage Sansa Stark.

[Ser_Patreck]

Just looked at the text, he was the one that said the vows.

Surprisingly enough, so did Sansa.

[Lyanna Stark]

Why I believe they have ~60% chance of ending up together, or why I am slowly coming around to it? I'm serious, it'll affect my answer.

Both, I imagine since I assumed they were tied together, but in that case I'd say why I think you are coming around to Sansa and Tyrion as a good match, yes. For either or them. Since you normally have fairly level headed views I'd be very interesting to hear how you can reach this conclusion based on the evidence of what we have seen in the novels so far, using character analysis, themes, etc. and also to somehow get to the point where the hostage situation in which they were joined does not matter any more.

[Lyanna Stark]

Surprisingly enough, so did Sansa.

Yes, after having been threatened by Cersei with a sound beating, as it happens. And may I draw your attention to the fact that Sansa cries straight through the ceremony. It should be obvious from this reading that Sansa is miserable with the situation and believes she has no choice.

Unless you somehow wish to argue that Sansa went ahead with the marriage willingly because she said the vows?

[Kittykatknits]

Surprisingly enough, so did Sansa.

Which one tried to run away? Which one was threatened with being beaten? Which one was the child? Which one had just been dragged there by men who had once beaten her?