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brashcandy

From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa X

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Terrific analysis LL :)

Highlights for me:

- Loras as a teen idol - he fits that type almost perfectly! And the part about appealing to the developing sexuality of the young, without threatening it was spot on. Total contrast to what Sandor represents. And like all teen idols, once you inevitably get to know them, the shines wears off.

- Sansa doing the ravishing - great detail there. She does have this vision of Loras as being very pure and spotless, almost too good to eat kind of thing going on. Her infatuation with Loras seems to be used as a kind of precursor to her developing more serious sexual longings.

- Concerning your question about her desire to see Loras go slay the monster, I'm not sure if it's quite conflicting with her earlier appeal to Ned to rescue him, but I do appreciate the irony :) I think from Sansa's perspective, Loras has always been the hero; the Hound wins, but she can't fashion him into a knight in shining armor.

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A piece is a pawn essentially, and I think we can all agree that Sansa was a Lannister pawn.

All pawns are pieces, but not all pieces are pawns. MeikoElektra was referring to some very pawn specific symbolism about how they are both the least valuable piece, yet still incredibly important to winning ("The pawns are the soul of chess"). Sansa on the other hand is treated as a "high value" piece that is worth trying to possess and control. In fact in the "Game of Thrones" she's almost opposite of a pawn. She's a piece assigned high worth and fought over because of her status at heir to Winterfell. In reality this is a mirage and she's not as important in the "Game" as she appears. All the players fighting over her miss this fact, just as they miss her actual worthwhile qualities, because they are ones assigned no value in their myopic "Game."

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All pawns are pieces, but not all pieces are pawns. MeikoElektra was referring to some very pawn specific symbolism about how they are both the least valuable piece, yet still incredibly important to winning ("The pawns are the soul of chess"). Sansa on the other hand is treated as a "high value" piece that is worth trying to possess and control. In fact in the "Game of Thrones" she's almost opposite of a pawn. She's a piece assigned high worth and fought over because of her status at heir to Winterfell. In reality this is a mirage and she's not as important in the "Game" as she appears. All the players fighting over her miss this fact, just as they miss her actual worthwhile qualities, because they are ones assigned no value in their myopic "Game."

Yes, it's true, not all pieces are pawns; however, I don't think that just because Sansa was a high valued piece that it means she wasn't a pawn. Based on her experiences in the narrative, it's quite clear that she is treated as a pawn, her freedom restricted and her wishes denied. Her claim is used to exploit her, literally illustrating her value to be pawned off, and even when she imagines herself free of this, she's right back amongst predatory individuals. The analogy to chess might not be an exact fit, but I do believe the symbolic meaning still applies.

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Yes, it's true, not all pieces are pawns; however, I don't think that just because Sansa was a high valued piece that it means she wasn't a pawn. Based on her experiences in the narrative, it's quite clear that she is treated as a pawn, her freedom restricted and her wishes denied. Her claim is used to exploit her, literally illustrating her value to be pawned off, and even when she imagines herself free of this, she's right back amongst predatory individuals. The analogy to chess might not be an exact fit, but I do believe the symbolic meaning still applies.

Well "pawns" and "pawning" are not related words but I understand your point. I'm fine with Sansa being a pawn as a metaphor, my issue was with then looking deeper at a literal pawn on a chessboard and its role and then looking for connections to Sansa there. Just calling a pawn symbolically is fine.

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Thank you so much for this thread and the amazing analyses! I've never given Sansa's development much thought and for a long time believed she was a "boring" character. I'm still working my way through all of the posts here and am stunned.

I really appreciate the analysis of Loras and Willas. Sansa seems to be a torn between the fairy tale in her mind the real world outside. Loras does definitely personify her dream of a gallant knight. Considering him as a teen idol he does have a certain air of inviolability surrounding him. That is, however, rather due to his outer appearance. With Sansa's experiences in KL her perception of knights and their possibilities changes and Willas is probably a good symbol for that. He is crippled which basically turns him into a broken knight. Yet, he seems to be good at heart and Sansa starts realizing the gap between outer and inner appearance. I think that influences her realtionship to other characters in the novels as well.

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Great stuff Lady Lea.

Loras is the personification of everything Sansa loved about songs and knights. He is young, beautiful, talented in tourneys, gallant and flawlessly polite. It’s no surprise that she labels him “a true knight”.

Indeed, Loras has always reminded me of a teen idol. Let’s see what Wikipedia (lol sorry for being lazy, guys) has to say about teen idols:

Well, hey there, Loras! With his boyish looks, wholesomeness, and “courtly love” routine, he is appealing but sexually non-threatening. He is also great at sports (well, those are sports, right?) and very charismatic, and his carefully created persona charms young ladies everywhere, but doesn’t necessarily reflect who he is – Loras, of course, isn’t really into ladies at all, and is in fact a bit of an arrogant, hot-headed little prick. He keeps his sexuality and romance with Renly a secret, so as to not hurt his popularity – coming out isn’t exactly an option in Westeros either.

LOL. Loras is the Westerosi equivalent of Justin Bieber

Isn’t it funny? Sansa had seen Gregor kill a man only the day before, and the Hound had told him his story just the night before as well. Her reaction at seeing Loras and Gregor prepare themselves for the joust isn’t “Loras will win”, or “I hope Loras will finish him”. She is afraid for Loras. She doesn’t think of him as the hero who could slay the monster but as a fragile thing to be protected.

{snip}

Only a few pages later, though, and she’s watching Ned send Beric Dondarrion and his men to kill Gregor Clegane, denying Loras’ request. Ned says it was because Loras was looking for vengeance and not justice. Sansa thinks it was because Ned’s leg injury “makes him cross”. Now this passage doesn’t make much sense to me:

Only days before she had seen the Mountain throw Loras on the ground and try to kill him, and Loras didn’t stand a chance. She KNEW that the only reason he won the joust was because of a trick, and that he couldn’t withstand Gregor. She even felt afraid for him and asked for Ned to protect him. And now… when Ned WAS protecting him, she wanted Loras to be sent to go after Gregor?? Is this GRRM being inconsistent or was Sansa so wrapped up in a fantasy that she forgets everything that she saw with her own eyes during the tourney to favour the fantasy?

I still think it works with her fantasy because Loras did unhorse Gregor and I don't think she really factors in the trickery there. It is still part of her fantasy.

But what about Loras? Why does HE want to go? He, more than anyone else, knows why he won the joust, and why he wasn’t killed by Gregor at the spot. It’s obvious that the Mountain would kill him during a battle. Does he want revenge so badly? Does he think the Mountain wouldn’t slay a Tyrell? Does he really believe his own pretense of being a knight straight from a song? Or is he just being cocky, like a young Jaime Lannister, thinking he is invincible?

Good questions. I am betting that he would have used some type of trickery again, or maybe he would have gotten a lot of House Tyrell and it's bannersmen behind him so he would be very protected from having to fight Gregor one on one.

Margaery invites Sansa for tea when she arrives at the Red Keep, and sends Loras to fetch Sansa. Keeping up with her tradition to compare every man she meets to Sandor she says they were as different “as a flower from a dog”. And then she gets all adorable like a fangirl again:

Well there isn’t much to look into here but I will say that I sympathise with her sentiments of trying to look cool in front of a boy you like and sounding a little stupid, and thinking “omg he’s touching meee!”.

I was soooo embarassed for her here. Yikes! It was amusing but cringeworthy too.

Margaery dissimulates but Olenna tells her he is older than her (how old, though? If Loras is 17 by this time, and Garlan is older, Willas should be around 21? 22?) and a cripple. Margaery says he has a bad leg but a good heart, and he used to read her stories when she was little, and draw pictures of the stars, he has the best birds in the kingdom. Later we also know that Willas is the one who gave that nice nickname to Garlan, that he is not bitter about his condition as he is friendly with Oberyn and even exchanges letters with him, and that he is quite intelligent and savvy as he predicts the Ironborn’s moves.

I don’t know about you but I am really curious about him. Even Littlefinger can’t find a bad thing to say about him other than “boring”, and I would take that boring over LF’s plots any day. Of course I want Sansa to marry someone she actually loves, but do you think this would have been a total disaster?

You know, the more I think about this the more I wonder if there is something else going on with Willas that the rest of the Tyrells are all hiding. He does sound too good to be true, except for having a bad leg, and I just wonder why if he is so great he hasn't been married already. I wonder if we'll ever find out, but the Tyrells here are really working it and presenting the situation to Sansa in such a way as though everything about it would be perfect - Highgarden is beautiful, Willas likes to read and seems sensitive and intelligent. Just like Loras's armor, on the surface it's all beautiful and sounds ideal but I wonder what the real truth is lying underneath it all.

Does Olenna mean what she says about taking Sansa to Highgarden? Does she truly want to go on with the original plan after Tyrion is taken out of the picture, or is it hogwash and she stopped caring now that Sansa is only the dwarf’s leavings and thus not good enough for Willas?

At first I thought she did want to take Sansa to Highgarden anyway especially as by this time Robb is dead so Sansa's claim to Winterfell is secure as far as they know. But now I'm not so sure because they knew Sansa would be considered a suspect in Joff's death so taking her to Highgarden and having Sansa being seen there would look really bad. Cersei would immediately suspect that the Tyrell's had a hand in killing Joff if Sansa showed up with them in Highgarden (well, she already suspects but the evidence would be a lot more damning against the Tyrells.)

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Thank you so much for this thread and the amazing analyses! I've never given Sansa's development much thought and for a long time believed she was a "boring" character. I'm still working my way through all of the posts here and am stunned.

I really appreciate the analysis of Loras and Willas. Sansa seems to be a torn between the fairy tale in her mind the real world outside. Loras does definitely personify her dream of a gallant knight. Considering him as a teen idol he does have a certain air of inviolability surrounding him. That is, however, rather due to his outer appearance. With Sansa's experiences in KL her perception of knights and their possibilities changes and Willas is probably a good symbol for that. He is crippled which basically turns him into a broken knight. Yet, he seems to be good at heart and Sansa starts realizing the gap between outer and inner appearance. I think that influences her realtionship to other characters in the novels as well.

Really happy you're enjoying the threads, Jahaera, and this means you'll be a regular poster here as well, right? ;)

I agree with what you've noted above. What's amusing about Loras with his sparkling sapphires is that he's literally the knight in shining armor, and as is to be expected everyone is dazzled. It's one of the reasons why I don't understand the flack Sansa takes for her earlier romanticizing of these types; it's very hard not to be impressed by the likes of Loras Tyrell. However, he always remains someone to look at, but not touch, and that's part of his aura. With Sandor, however, there's a tactile quality to all their interactions, and I think that's important to the idea that with him she's experiencing something real, substantive and meaningful.

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Really happy you're enjoying the threads, Jahaera, and this means you'll be a regular poster here as well, right? ;)

I agree with what you've noted above. What's amusing about Loras with his sparkling sapphires is that he's literally the knight in shining armor, and as is to be expected everyone is dazzled. It's one of the reasons why I don't understand the flack Sansa takes for her earlier romanticizing of these types; it's very hard not to be impressed by the likes of Loras Tyrell. However, he always remains someone to look at, but not touch, and that's part of his aura. With Sandor, however, there's a tactile quality to all their interactions, and I think that's important to the idea that with him she's experiencing something real, substantive and meaningful.

Ah yes, the difference between the flimsy, shallow attraction based on the glittering surface and the more earthy, physical, slow-developing attraction.

Interestingly, GRRM seems to put intrinsic value on the different types of attraction: the first one almost always ends in disaster, grief, sorrow and death, while the second one is the more realistic and long lasting as it is based on a real understanding and appreciation and not on an idealised view of reality (see Ned/Cat, Davos/Marya).

EDIT: I'm not dead by the way, just had a perfect shitstorm of things that kept me more or less off the internet for a while. I'll try and catch up with you guys as best I can. :)

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Ah yes, the difference between the flimsy, shallow attraction based on the glittering surface and the more earthy, physical, slow-developing attraction.

Interestingly, GRRM seems to put intrinsic value on the different types of attraction: the first one almost always ends in disaster, grief, sorrow and death, while the second one is the more realistic and long lasting as it is based on a real understanding and appreciation and not on an idealised view of reality (see Ned/Cat, Davos/Marya).

EDIT: I'm not dead by the way, just had a perfect shitstorm of things that kept me more or less off the internet for a while. I'll try and catch up with you guys as best I can. :)

Lyanna Stark, bestill my heart :) Did you see my msg on LJ?

You know, the more I think about this the more I wonder if there is something else going on with Willas that the rest of the Tyrells are all hiding. He does sound too good to be true, except for having a bad leg, and I just wonder why if he is so great he hasn't been married already. I wonder if we'll ever find out, but the Tyrells here are really working it and presenting the situation to Sansa in such a way as though everything about it would be perfect - Highgarden is beautiful, Willas likes to read and seems sensitive and intelligent. Just like Loras's armor, on the surface it's all beautiful and sounds ideal but I wonder what the real truth is lying underneath it all.

I've long wondered if Willas might not be impotent. Nothing to substantiate it really, but we know most of Sansa's thoughts concerning him are about having children etc, and it would be Martinesque to reveal how those dreams would have been cruelly dashed. I don't think the Tyrells just wanted Sansa because she was the heir to Winterfell, but precisely because she was also fatherless and motherless, basically without any remaining family, and given her experiences with the Lannisters, would be a quiet, tractable wife to Willas.

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You know, the more I think about this the more I wonder if there is something else going on with Willas that the rest of the Tyrells are all hiding. He does sound too good to be true, except for having a bad leg, and I just wonder why if he is so great he hasn't been married already. I wonder if we'll ever find out, but the Tyrells here are really working it and presenting the situation to Sansa in such a way as though everything about it would be perfect - Highgarden is beautiful, Willas likes to read and seems sensitive and intelligent. Just like Loras's armor, on the surface it's all beautiful and sounds ideal but I wonder what the real truth is lying underneath it all.

At first I thought she did want to take Sansa to Highgarden anyway especially as by this time Robb is dead so Sansa's claim to Winterfell is secure as far as they know. But now I'm not so sure because they knew Sansa would be considered a suspect in Joff's death so taking her to Highgarden and having Sansa being seen there would look really bad. Cersei would immediately suspect that the Tyrell's had a hand in killing Joff if Sansa showed up with them in Highgarden (well, she already suspects but the evidence would be a lot more damning against the Tyrells.)

I've long wondered if Willas might not be impotent. Nothing to substantiate it really, but we know most of Sansa's thoughts concerning him are about having children etc, and it would be Martinesque to reveal how those dreams would have been cruelly dashed. I don't think the Tyrells just wanted Sansa because she was the heir to Winterfell, but precisely because she was also fatherless and motherless, basically without any remaining family, and given her experiences with the Lannisters, would be a quiet, tractable wife to Willas.

Ah, thanks, Elba and Brash! Those are really good points you bring up. I often wonder why he hasn't been married yet - I mean, on paper he sounds like a catch, except for the bad leg, but if Walder Frey can marry 9 times, why can't the richest heir in the seven kingdoms? Edmure wasn't married yet because he was a womanizer, but that doesn't seem to be the case with Willas. Winter's Knight speculates that he might be gay, but I don't know, if he was I think Littlefinger would have made a comment to Sansa instead of calling him "boring".

Arianne Martell wanted to marry him and even ran away to do so, I actually think politically it would be a good match, she's the heir to Sunspear and he to Highgarden, and it would mend relations between the Houses. Maybe the Tyrells even proposed a match, but of course Doran would have refused.

It could be they are just being extra picky because he is the heir and (I get the impression) quite a favourite of Olenna. Maybe they have proposed matches to Willas and he refused - after all, his father pushing him into things is what led to him being crippled in the first place, maybe now he says he wants to make this decision on his own time.

I agree with Brash that the Tyrells think she would be a quiet, tractable wife - besides pretty and rich. Willas seems like a quiet guy, maybe they think she is the sort of girl he'd like?

Good point about Sansa being seen in Highgarden, Elba. They would really have to make sure she wasn't implicated if they wanted to bring her there, and it didn't seem they took any precautions to avoid it... after all, a maester would have figured out that it was the Strangler, and they would look to the hairnet SANSA was wearing... it would look really really bad.

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Ah, thanks, Elba and Brash! Those are really good points you bring up. I often wonder why he hasn't been married yet - I mean, on paper he sounds like a catch, except for the bad leg, but if Walder Frey can marry 9 times, why can't the richest heir in the seven kingdoms? Edmure wasn't married yet because he was a womanizer, but that doesn't seem to be the case with Willas. Winter's Knight speculates that he might be gay, but I don't know, if he was I think Littlefinger would have made a comment to Sansa instead of calling him "boring".

WK speculates that Willas had an affair with Oberyn, not that he is exclusively into men.

He's probably single due to a shortage of girls the right age and the tumultuous time period.

In AGoT, Loras was 16, putting Willas at about 21-22. Now, Ned finds out how unstable the realm is only when he moves to KL but Renly's been there for a while and he-and by extension Loras and the Tyrells-would already be aware of it. In fact, Renly is already plotting to replace Cersei as queen.

In such a case, it makes sense to keep Willas unattached-the right marriage can win wars, as we saw with the Tully/Arryn match.

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WK speculates that Willas had an affair with Oberyn, not that he is exclusively into men.

He's probably single due to a shortage of girls the right age and the tumultuous time period.

In AGoT, Loras was 16, putting Willas at about 21-22. Now, Ned finds out how unstable the realm is only when he moves to KL but Renly's been there for a while and he-and by extension Loras and the Tyrells-would already be aware of it. In fact, Renly is already plotting to replace Cersei as queen.

In such a case, it makes sense to keep Willas unattached-the right marriage can win wars, as we saw with the Tully/Arryn match.

Ah, ok :) I'm sure I've seen people talk about him being gay though, I've seen people say it of all the Tyrell kids... It makes sense what you said about being unattached, look at how useful Margaery has been.

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I've long wondered if Willas might not be impotent. Nothing to substantiate it really, but we know most of Sansa's thoughts concerning him are about having children etc, and it would be Martinesque to reveal how those dreams would have been cruelly dashed. I don't think the Tyrells just wanted Sansa because she was the heir to Winterfell, but precisely because she was also fatherless and motherless, basically without any remaining family, and given her experiences with the Lannisters, would be a quiet, tractable wife to Willas.

You know, this is something that I had been thinking of as well. And you're right, I don't think there's anything specifically said that would lead us to belive he was impotent.....BUT for some reason I do think he is. Plus you have another point when you say it'd be just like GRRM to squash Sansa's dreams like that.

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Ah, ok :) I'm sure I've seen people talk about him being gay though, I've seen people say it of all the Tyrell kids... It makes sense what you said about being unattached, look at how useful Margaery has been.

I know. :frown5:

Biphobia, it hurts. :crying: Given the society these books take place in, sexualities would not be neatly packaged into separate boxes.

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Ah, thanks, Elba and Brash! Those are really good points you bring up. I often wonder why he hasn't been married yet - I mean, on paper he sounds like a catch, except for the bad leg, but if Walder Frey can marry 9 times, why can't the richest heir in the seven kingdoms? Edmure wasn't married yet because he was a womanizer, but that doesn't seem to be the case with Willas. Winter's Knight speculates that he might be gay, but I don't know, if he was I think Littlefinger would have made a comment to Sansa instead of calling him "boring".

Arianne Martell wanted to marry him and even ran away to do so, I actually think politically it would be a good match, she's the heir to Sunspear and he to Highgarden, and it would mend relations between the Houses. Maybe the Tyrells even proposed a match, but of course Doran would have refused.

It could be they are just being extra picky because he is the heir and (I get the impression) quite a favourite of Olenna. Maybe they have proposed matches to Willas and he refused - after all, his father pushing him into things is what led to him being crippled in the first place, maybe now he says he wants to make this decision on his own time.

I agree with Brash that the Tyrells think she would be a quiet, tractable wife - besides pretty and rich. Willas seems like a quiet guy, maybe they think she is the sort of girl he'd like?

Good point about Sansa being seen in Highgarden, Elba. They would really have to make sure she wasn't implicated if they wanted to bring her there, and it didn't seem they took any precautions to avoid it... after all, a maester would have figured out that it was the Strangler, and they would look to the hairnet SANSA was wearing... it would look really really bad.

I think brashcandy and Elba have a point. Olenna thought that Sansa would be very tractable at Highgarden and she probably would have been. Sansa even says that she would make Willas love her, she'd have been a proper and dutiful wife, eager to please I think. Perhaps I'm cynical, but I think if she had gone to Highgarden, her character development would have essentially stopped.

I also think we don't know the full truth about Willas yet. He's been described as almost perfect so far. He loves his family, he's loyal and dutiful, raises dogs, educated, compassionante, and left me with the impression of having a bit of a True Knight feel to him. He's almost to good to be true and I'm sceptical. Olenna and Margaery conspired against Sansa and Willas doesn't appear to be the oaf that Mace is. Martin has a pattern with characters, we are given an initial impression and then find out that we were wrong. Sansa and Sandor have this happen quite a bit within the fandom. Another common theme within ASOIAF is words are wind. We've been told quite a bit about him but we have not actually seen his actions yet. I'm curious what those would reveal.

I think the idea that he is impotent has merit as well. He's the Heir of a major house, it makes no sense that the family would be content to wait so long before he begins trying to produce heirs. Even Hoster Tully was pushing his brother to marry.

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I think Olenna saw Sansa as a great catch, because like most of KL, she assumed Sansa was tractable and stupid. Also she was alone in the world, but witha fantastic claim. Essentially she was a highly desirable brood mare who would do as she was told and stay out of Tyrell family business. Very much in the same way that the Tyrells seem to consist of Marg, Olenna, Mace, Garlan, Willa's and Loras, but Mace's wife is very much kept to the sidelines and Olenna seems to keep Marg close to her.

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I think Olenna saw Sansa as a great catch, because like most of KL, she assumed Sansa was tractable and stupid. Also she was alone in the world, but witha fantastic claim. Essentially she was a highly desirable brood mare who would do as she was told and stay out of Tyrell family business. Very much in the same way that the Tyrells seem to consist of Marg, Olenna, Mace, Garlan, Willa's and Loras, but Mace's wife is very much kept to the sidelines and Olenna seems to keep Marg close to her.

THIS. I don't think the Tyrells took Sansa "under their wing" out of the goodness of their hearts (I'm not sure why some people believe so?). I think they figured since she was alone with really no family to protect her, that she would be very malleable.

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THIS. I don't think the Tyrells took Sansa "under their wing" out of the goodness of their hearts (I'm not sure why some people believe so?). I think they figured since she was alone with really no family to protect her, that she would be very malleable.

I agree. The Tyrells try to advance their position in KL. It goes from marrying Marg to Joff and then killing him so she can marry Tommen who would be easier to influece to trying to gain posts in the Small Council. Having Sansa in their hands would help them to strengthen their position because it would break the Lannister's claim of the North and take away a means to pressure Catelyn. That does not exclude however that Olenna and Marg like her, but it is secondary.

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I think Olenna saw Sansa as a great catch, because like most of KL, she assumed Sansa was tractable and stupid. Also she was alone in the world, but witha fantastic claim. Essentially she was a highly desirable brood mare who would do as she was told and stay out of Tyrell family business. Very much in the same way that the Tyrells seem to consist of Marg, Olenna, Mace, Garlan, Willa's and Loras, but Mace's wife is very much kept to the sidelines and Olenna seems to keep Marg close to her.

Yep, I completely agree. They were treating her like a claim from their first meeting with her. No reason they would completely change because of her marriage. They would gain nothing by doing anything else but keep her at the sidelines.

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I agree. The Tyrells try to advance their position in KL. It goes from marrying Marg to Joff and then killing him so she can marry Tommen who would be easier to influece to trying to gain posts in the Small Council. Having Sansa in their hands would help them to strengthen their position because it would break the Lannister's claim of the North and take away a means to pressure Catelyn. That does not exclude however that Olenna and Marg like her, but it is secondary.

I'm not sure they liked her at alll, I'd say at most Garlan and Marg feel some pity for her but that's it. Olenna calls her stupid at one point and think Sansa would still go to Highgarden after the Tyrells so obviously abandoned her. Their treatment of Sansa after her marriage tells me how little they thought of her. The friendship from Sansa was genuine but I don't think that feeling was mutual.

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