Characters you cannot seem to find excuses for.

[Lady Faceless]

There are alot of completely hated characters in ASOIAF: Gregor, Ramsay, Walder Frey, etc.

& there are alot of characters who people have mixed opinions about: Dany, Catelyn, Jaime, Cersei, Theon, etc.

Which of latter can you not find a single excuse for?

For me it's Cersei Lannister.

Her supporters go on to highlight the fact that she loves and does everything for children, but I find that complete and utter BS. If she loved her kids as much as you say she never would've put that damned crown on the head of Tommen after the death pf her first son. Jaime himself said it was as good as a death sentence.

Also, despite the fact that some people hold her as the height feminism, she awfully sexist. She doesn't want power because she thinks a woman can wield it, she wants it because she considers herself better than women. For gods sake, she's constantly remarking how pathetic and weak other women are.

So what about you guys? Who's unforgivable in your eyes?

[danm_999]

Rhaegar running away with Lyanna.

I honestly don't think he could have picked a better way to upset the realm's political stability.

[Sevumar]

Your view of Cersei is pretty close to my opinion of her. I think she has valid points about the misogyny inherent in Westerosi culture, but nothing she's done has really been a good way of addressing this inequality. Instead of trying to prove her worth and educate herself in the responsibilities and knowledge of a ruler, she decides to lie, cheat, and murder her way to achieving her ends.

Cersei hurts a lot of people and she does it proudly, from a position of ignorance. Her behavior is reprehensible and there isn't a justification for most of her actions in the book. She's simply self-absorbed and ruthless in her methods. She thinks nothing of inflicting cruel and undeserved treatment on people who have committed no crimes, in order to silence them and get her way. She has gone far beyond merely "protecting her kids" and now she's trying to steal a kingdom for them (and herself).

[David C. Hunter]

Queen Cersei

Ramsay Bolton

Tywin Lannister

.... that's about it

[Winter's Knight]

There are alot of completely hated characters in ASOIAF: Gregor, Ramsay, Walder Frey, etc.

& there are alot of characters who people have mixed opinions about: Dany, Catelyn, Jaime, Cersei, Theon, etc.

Which of latter can you not find a single excuse for?

For me it's Cersei Lannister.

Her supporters go on to highlight the fact that she loves and does everything for children, but I find that complete and utter BS. If she loved her kids as much as you say she never would've put that damned crown on the head of Tommen after the death pf her first son. Jaime himself said it was as good as a death sentence.

Also, despite the fact that some people hold her as the height feminism, she awfully sexist. She doesn't want power because she thinks a woman can wield it, she wants it because she considers herself better than women. For gods sake, she's constantly remarking how pathetic and weak other women are.

So what about you guys? Who's unforgivable in your eyes?

So what was she supposed to do, not crown Tommen? Admit to the incest and get herself, her brother and son executed? Secretly flee with Jaime and Tommen, leaving Mycella in Dorne?

I find that I am usually incapable of not finding excuses for characters-used to be a Voldemort apologist-but Bran warging Hodor is very nearly a Moral Event Horizon for me.

[Sevumar]

So what was she supposed to do, not crown Tommen? Admit to the incest and get herself, her brother and son executed? Secretly flee with Jaime and Tommen, leaving Mycella in Dorne?

She should have taken Ned's offer when he generously presented her with the chance to stop using her children as pawns, saving them and herself. Instead, she chose to gamble their safety on the fate of House Lannister and place her children in harm's way with her own missteps. Ned had those children's best interests in mind; Cersei seemed to want to protect them, but only for the end of consolidating her own power and indulging in the fantasy of being the ruler of a kingdom she had no right to.

[Jolene Brown]

I agree about Cercei, although I will sometimes try to make some excuses nonetheless - I would note in particular that her treatment of Tommen in AFFC just totally sucks, so although I do believe that she loves her children, I don't think it's much healthier than her love for their father is/was. She does nothing to try to prepare Tommen to be King - it's clear that she sees him as a means to the end of her own personal power.

Similarly, she must be well-aware that his position and even personal safety is deeply dependent on the Tyrells, and yet she basically does everything but make war on them in AFFC. The Tyrells are literally the Lannisters only allies at this point - the Martells have made it clear they will not actively support the Lannisters militarily. She can not afford to alienate the Tyrells, and yet she undercuts that alliance at every turn. Plus, she's just straight-up mean to Tommen, making him whip Pate, taking no pleasure in his improvement at jousting, ugh.

The Rhaegar thing is complicated because we just don't have the full picture yet. I don't think we can completely judge until we know exactly what actually happened, or a lot more about it.

[grindylow]

I'm at a weird place with Cersei, because my traditional reaction to her is much like yours: intense frustration that her grabs for power seem to run contrary to her stated purpose of protecting her children. The further her children are from King's Landing and the throne, the safer they are, right?

But once her family married her off to the King, how was she ever going to get her children away from the throne? They're the heirs. She could have run when Ned Stark told her to run, but they both knew that if she did, Robert would come after her. Once she had Robert killed and Ned locked up until she could guarantee his silence, the most dangerous thing she could have done was flee: keeping Joffrey off of the throne that is his by law would only be seen as an admission of guilt, endangering her children once again. The same thing when Joff died: All Cersei can do is take out her enemies before they can hurt her children, and hope that she always sees them first.

So. I am just not at all okay with Cersei's behavior, but I try to finish the sentence, "Well, she should have done _________ instead!!!", I just can't fill in the blank.

[Winter's Knight]

She should have taken Ned's offer when he generously presented her with the chance to stop using her children as pawns, saving them and herself. Instead, she chose to gamble their safety on the fate of House Lannister and place her children in harm's way with her own missteps. Ned had those children's best interests in mind; Cersei seemed to want to protect them, but only for the end of consolidating her own power and indulging in the fantasy of being the ruler of a kingdom she had no right to.

She should've fled just because one man knew the truth?

You seem to be labouring under the misconception that a woman must truly love her children if she desires nothing else. Cersei loves her children and she loves power-there's nothing wrong in that.

There are plenty of other things Cersei has done-her partnership with Qyburn for instance or her murder of the High Septon-but those hardly get mentioned among her faults.

[danm_999]

The Rhaegar thing is complicated because we just don't have the full picture yet. I don't think we can completely judge until we know exactly what actually happened, or a lot more about it.

I should probably clarify my objection isn't so much related to the accusation he kidnapped Lyanna, since I believed she wanted to go with him, but the trouble his eloping with Lyanna put his wife, children and family in.

[Jolene Brown]

I should probably clarify my objection isn't so much related to the accusation he kidnapped Lyanna, since I believed she wanted to go with him, but the trouble his eloping with Lyanna put his wife, children and family in.

But it's sort of the same thing - I totally agree that it seems awful, but again, I think we need to know more about why he did it. It seems so incredibly stupid that I almost feel like there HAS to be more to the story.

[grindylow]

I find that I am usually incapable of not finding excuses for characters-used to be a Voldemort apologist-but Bran warging Hodor is very nearly a Moral Event Horizon for me.

I'm heading that way myself with Bran - I never liked it but cut him some slack because I felt he just didn't get how awful it was. But he has had more than enough time to think about how much to it scares Hodor, and especially the way he worked to trick the Reeds in the cave tells me he knows damn well that he's doing something wrong.

[Winterfell is Burning]

I should probably clarify my objection isn't so much related to the accusation he kidnapped Lyanna, since I believed she wanted to go with him, but the trouble his eloping with Lyanna put his wife, children and family in.

This. I'm not 100% convinced that Lyanna went and stayed willingly, but even if she did, there are no excuses for that.

Also, Cersei having Jaime's children is unforgivable. No matter how much she hates him and how much bastards he had, there's nothing to justify that. If she wanted a "revenge" she could have at best avoided having any children whatsoever, but her petty BS caused a civil war and costed tens of thousands of lives.

[danm_999]

But it's sort of the same thing - I totally agree that it seems awful, but again, I think we need to know more about why he did it. It seems so incredibly stupid that I almost feel like there HAS to be more to the story.

Well, I've seen suggestions he did it because the dragon needed three heads (he needed three children and Elia couldn't pop another one out), but I'd still give him a failing grade if this is his motivation, because his actions got at least one of the other dragon heads (Rhaenys) killed. Two if you think Aegon is a fake.

[grindylow]

And to answer the original question, I have to say Tyrion. I liked him in Game of Thrones, but from his very first chapter in Clash of Kings, it's been a steep downward slope. He was miserable as could be long before he killed Shae - it was no surprise at all, honestly, when that happened. And it's not that I can't find excuses for him. I know the excuses. I just do not care at all anymore. I don't want to hear them even one more time.

[Sevumar]

She should've fled just because one man knew the truth?

She should have fled because if Jon Arryn and Ned could both learn the truth, then others would undoubtedly do the same. And if that truth was to come out while Robert lived, it would have been the end of her and her children. Cersei's ability to put herself and her relatives in a position of power would have decreased, but a powerbase built on lies was going to unravel anyway, especially with someone like Cersei at the helm.

You seem to be labouring under the misconception that a woman must truly love her children if she desires nothing else. Cersei loves her children and she loves power-there's nothing wrong in that.

I'm not saying that she didn't love her children, I think she does, but her decisions have not had that affection for them foremost in her mind. She turned them into pawns in her pursuit of power for both herself and for her bastards. She has put her own desires above those of her children often enough that the excuse of "doing it for the children" is no longer believable when it comes to Cersei.

Protecting the lives of her children was never really the issue; it was a high-stakes game off all-or-nothing for something that they never had any right to in the first place.

There are plenty of other things Cersei has done-her partnership with Qyburn for instance or her murder of the High Septon-but those hardly get mentioned among her faults.

Actually, those kinds of actions are precisely what I was getting at in my descriptions of her willingness to dispose of people and send them off for torture with no justification whatsoever. They're the single largest reason that I cannot stand Cersei. Whatever else she is, she is a deliberate victimizer of innocent people. She has a prominent cruel streak and she becomes less afraid of the consequences of indulging it as the books go on. Combine that with her virtual inability to plan for the future and the results are disastrous.

[Danelle]

There are alot of completely hated characters in ASOIAF: Gregor, Ramsay, Walder Frey, etc.

& there are alot of characters who people have mixed opinions about: Dany, Catelyn, Jaime, Cersei, Theon, etc.

Which of latter can you not find a single excuse for?

For me it's Cersei Lannister.

Her supporters go on to highlight the fact that she loves and does everything for children, but I find that complete and utter BS. If she loved her kids as much as you say she never would've put that damned crown on the head of Tommen after the death pf her first son. Jaime himself said it was as good as a death sentence.

Also, despite the fact that some people hold her as the height feminism, she awfully sexist. She doesn't want power because she thinks a woman can wield it, she wants it because she considers herself better than women. For gods sake, she's constantly remarking how pathetic and weak other women are.

So what about you guys? Who's unforgivable in your eyes?

I tried really hard to find excuses for Joffrey. The only thing I could think of is that he grew up seeking Robert's approoval. He abused Sansa because he had seen his father constantly abusing Cersei. I don't know if this excuse is enough.

Ser Gregor Clegane, Ser Amory Lorch, Euron Greyjoy, Vargo Hoat, Ramsay Bolton. No matter how hard I try I can't find an excuse for their actions.

I would add Aerys but he is a Targaryen and well he is expected to be either crazy or magnificent.

[Gannicus]

The main ones for me.

Joffrey

The Mountain

Vargo Hoat

Ramsay

Cersei from the book (the show Cersei is a much more compelling character)

And to answer the original question, I have to say Tyrion. I liked him in Game of Thrones, but from his very first chapter in Clash of Kings, it's been a steep downward slope. He was miserable as could be long before he killed Shae - it was no surprise at all, honestly, when that happened. And it's not that I can't find excuses for him. I know the excuses. I just do not care at all anymore. I don't want to hear them even one more time.

:shocked:

She should've fled just because one man knew the truth?

You seem to be labouring under the misconception that a woman must truly love her children if she desires nothing else. Cersei loves her children and she loves power-there's nothing wrong in that.

That's not the issue. The issue is that her actions say she loves power more than her children.

[Pellaeon]

Littlefinger, he is responsible for the war

[BannermanOfDorne]

Jaime, I can forgive the kingslaying, his motive was pretty solid, but he stilled pushed Brann out of a window with the intention of killing him. I really don't see any excuse for that.