Who killed Joffrey?

[Where Went Whent]

LF doesn't actually name names, but he gives hints about the hairnet. Frankly I believe R'hloor lord of light slew Joffrey. Who else could have that power? Thumbs for the red god. If I was in Westeros I'd worship him.

[Golden Lady]

I killed Joffrey. Muahaha

[chrisdaw]

The significance of the conversation between Cersei and Margaery I think is not being fully realised. If Margaery was involved in Joff's poisoning that conversation becomes out of character. Likewise it'd be textually inconsistent if the QOT were to entrust Mace with the plan or if Mace were to approve and play a part in it. The chalice was the spanner in the works that prevented their plan being realised, and possibly Oberyn's plan too.

[Lanko]

I love how the wedding humiliation of Tyrion is considered the primary reason he became angry enough to poison Joffrey (and a major part of "setting the stage"). Yet this complicated plan relied on Joffrey both pouring out his own wine onto Tyrion and then getting dickish enough to have Tyrion serve his replacement wine to him. And THEN not taking his wine with him when he went to cut the pie.

Yet simultaneously the claim is that there was premeditation with Sansa in procuring the poison in the first place. Sigh.

So Tyrion and Sansa hatched a plan to poison Joffrey, but only to be used if Joffrey humiliates him with...say...dwarf jousters from Essos? And then only if Joffrey randomly decides to make Tyrion his cupbearer to further his humiliation? The elite of Westeros are truly a gullible, illogical lot. This Rube-Goldberg plot should have never been so easily accepted with a room consisting of Thorns, Oberyn, and countless others.

On his wedding with Sansa, Tyrion threatens to castrate Joffrey, in front of Tywin, the Tyrells, Martells, etc. Joffrey is also furious. That's a good start.

Also, Littlefinger tells Queen of Thorns about Joffrey. And he was the one who suggested to Joffrey to hire the dwarf jousters. Joffrey asked why he should, since he hated dwards and Littlefinger says ''but your uncle will love it'' and then Joffrey hires them.

So the part of the dwarf jousters was actually planned.

It was actually a predicitable situation. Tyrion would de humiliated, and LF knows Tyrion well enough he would make a smart comment about it. And that Jeoffrey is too temperamental. If Tyrion decided to stay quiet about it, it would be even more suspicious later, considering his personality.

To be honest, if the chalice went near Tyrion or not wouldn't matter. The plan was to kill Joffrey. Tyrion would be blamed anyway. They would point he was the only one with reasons. And Cersei would do it anyway. She asks the guards to capture the poisoner and they are all like ''What...who?'' and she tells them to capture Tyrion.

Littlefinger was in the court in book 2 and saw enough of the relationship between Cersei and Tyrion, especially the part when Cersei gets Alayaya and Tyrion gets Tommen.

And Margaery knows of the plan. She was in the room with Queen of Thorns and Sansa questioning her about Joffrey. Then QoT and Marg exchanges looks like if they said ''so it's true''. She would have to know the plan to avoid getting poisoned herself or everything was for naught.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Littlefinger and the Tyrells (namely Olenna and, yes, Margaery) killed Joffrey. Sansa provided unwitting assistance with the hairnet.

The Red God didn't do squat with Joffrey, and not with Balon or Robb, either.

[chrisdaw]

And Margaery knows of the plan. She was in the room with Queen of Thorns and Sansa questioning her about Joffrey. Then QoT and Marg exchanges looks like if they said ''so it's true''. She would have to know the plan to avoid getting poisoned herself or everything was for naught.

That Margaery is interested in the nature of her betrothed, that she discussed such with her grandmother is a long way from being complicit in his murder.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

That Margaery is interested in the nature of her betrothed, that she discussed such with her grandmother is a long way from being complicit in his murder.

My assertion that Margaery was extremely involved in the murder stems from this: The only way to be 100% sure that whatever poisoned Joffrey didn't also poison Margaery is if Margaery was the one who ultimately slipped Joffrey the poison. If anyone else did it, including Olenna, there would be some chance that Margaery would also take it. Margaery is probably also the only person to have the unfettered access to the chalice necessary to slip the poison.

[chrisdaw]

And on the flipside, if Margaery is not complicit the chalice is a spanner in the works that must put a stop to their plan.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

And on the flipside, if Margaery is not complicit the chalice is a spanner in the works that must put a stop to their plan.

... Huh?

[Victor227]

Garlan was playing Tyrion like a fiddle during the wedding. Complimenting him, shoring up his ego, and ensuring that he'll indulge in his biggest weakness when Joffrey comes a-calling, he'll open his mouth. Assuming the Tyrells have access to Littlefinger's arrangements (the dwarves from Essos were his doing), they know a Tyrion/Joffrey confrontation is inevitable. Garlan was building Tyrion up so that he'd embarrass Joffrey and cause a scene. Right there they have a distraction to poison the cup should a moment arise, and they create a suspect on the spot. The Tyrells are tricky climbers by nature, and Tyrion's on the wrong side of the king. There's a reason why no one else was singing his praises, and Garlan had all those same reasons (if not for himself, assuming he really is a great guy, but for his family's sake).

As well, in regard to Margery having Joffrey's son, Littlefinger points out that with hot-headed Loras on the Kingsguard protecting his sister, and Joffrey being the little monster he is, every second the two of them are together is one where they might get to see a second round of Kingslaying. That's the main reason why Sansa was questioned about him, to ascertain his nature by a lady close to him. The Tyrells still hold the cards in the event that they have to wait for Tommen thanks to their army, and in the meantime should things go south for the Lannisters in the next few years as the realm stabilizes (or doesn't), Margery isn't soiled with the child of an abomination.

Between the hairnet and Olenna, it's almost a sure thing that the Tyrells pulled off the deed. And I'd put my money on Garlan as being the poisoner. As was pointed out earlier, the text even shows that he had the -perfect- opportunity to do the deed. And considering the size of the cup, and the attention placed on Margery (all eyes were on the King and Queen), Olenna and Margery are out of the running as well. All it would take is a minor signal of some kind and Margery would know that the cup is doomed, and to avoid drinking from it. They waited till Joffrey was freshly embarrassed, and blind drunk already before doing it to minimize the risks as well.

[chrisdaw]

... Huh?

With the presence of the chalice Margaery must be in on it for the plan to work, and so it follows that if Margaery is not in on it the plan must be halted or they risk Margaery's life.

Garlan was playing Tyrion like a fiddle during the wedding. Complimenting him, shoring up his ego, and ensuring that he'll indulge in his biggest weakness when Joffrey comes a-calling, he'll open his mouth. Assuming the Tyrells have access to Littlefinger's arrangements (the dwarves from Essos were his doing), they know a Tyrion/Joffrey confrontation is inevitable. Garlan was building Tyrion up so that he'd embarrass Joffrey and cause a scene.

And so what do we make of Oberyn making false statements concerning King Viserys in Tyrion's hearing?

[Victor227]

And so what do we make of Oberyn making false statements concerning King Viserys in Tyrion's hearing?

Oberyn's still a tricky bastard with means, motive, and opportunity. But as he himself points out, he's the most obvious suspect in existence. What's more, considerng the 'murder mystery' way that setting is described, he was nowhere near Joffrey's cup at any time. He was with the highest-ranking guests too, which means the rest of the table's eyes were on him (except for the moment where the cup was unguarded and away from Joffrey, where Garlan was).

Oberyn was a snake, who was probably slinking around ready to bite in secret at any time, but assuming the Tywin theory is true, he went with a subtle, more private, and more humiliating poison. Why wouldn't he use a similar one with Joffrey to make it appear like an illness? He's got nothing against the kid compared to his hatred for Tywin, (though he does have the Myrcella motivation). Heck! It could be just like the Tywin theory and Oberyn had already poisoned Joffrey with something slower-acting when he was poisoned by the Tyrells.

Regardless, just like with Crescens (as we saw the same symptoms), strangler in the wine did the job. We know Sansa had the poison on her hairnet, and that Olenna retrieved it from her, and we know the Tyrells also had means, motive, and opportunity, and the whole plan was explained by Littlefinger. If that was a lie on his part (which isn't impossible, I mean, Littlefinger? Lie?!) then it also throws into question all his other actions with Sansa, and just how enthralled and careless he's being with her.

[Victor227]

deleted, pardon, doublepost

[Independent George]

Good grief, how is this still being discussed?

The specific details (like what was actually poisoned, when, and by whom) are debatable, but the Littlefinger-Tyrell conspiracy has been explicitly revealed as canon. How the f*** do people keep coming up with alternate theories?!!

[Daenerys is my queen]

I think it was the Tyrells. The idea of it being Oberyn is interesting though. I wouldn't mind if it was him. But if it's not I'd be fine with that too. I just hope we find out in the future books. :)

[chrisdaw]

Oberyn's still a tricky bastard with means, motive, and opportunity. But as he himself points out, he's the most obvious suspect in existence.

Being the most obvious suspect in existence may have very well been his intention, Oberyn asks Tyrion to account for Joff's madness and Doran stated the plan was to strip Tywin of everything before killing him. But that's not the question. If Garlan's actions must be perceived as a deliberate ploy to provoke Tyrion, how should we perceive Oberyn's actions? Are we suppose to think it is by happenstance that Oberyn is voicing controversial and mistaken opinions about King Viserys and his alleged poisoning of his King nephew in Tyrion's hearing? And in a manner that has Tyrion defending Viserys?

LF confirms there was a plan, that Olenna had motive is plain, that she had opportunity is dependent upon the complicity of Margaery and/or Mace.

[Victor227]

LF confirms there was a plan, that Olenna had motive is plain, that she had opportunity is dependent upon the complicity of Margaery and/or Mace.

It's more than just stated. It's spelled out. What's more, Oberyn was seated at a separate table away from not only the dias, but away from Tyrion where the cup was placed in the moment that it was unguarded. It's stated that his table was -near- the dias, whereas Tyrion had a good dozen people seated before him in order.

We know from Crescens that the Strangler is a relatively quick-acting poison, so the cup can't have been poisoned when Joffrey drank from it prior to going to cut the pie. Thus, it had to have been during the cutting, when all eyes were on Joffrey and Margery, and the cup was unguarded. Unless Oberyn teleported to the cup and poisoned the wine, then teleported back to his table, it wasn't him behind any use of the Strangler.

Olenna was at the dias (or at least it wasn't stated that she walked over with Joffrey and Margery to Tyrion), Magery was at Joffrey's side, and we know from their povs that neither Sansa nor Tyrion did anything (Tyrion didn't have the reach anyway to drop anything in the cup). Garlan and Lady Leonette are the only two who were in a position to do so.

[chrisdaw]

That is an uncanny amount of deductions based on one drunken POV at the time.

[WakeTheDragon]

Anyone consider that maybe Stannis did it with both Balon and Joffrey using some strange magic. Anyone remember the leech burning scene? Maybe Stannis cursed the 3 ursurpers as they all died shortly after.

[Lady Sansa Stark]

Anyone consider that maybe Stannis did it with both Balon and Joffrey using some strange magic. Anyone remember the leech burning scene? Maybe Stannis cursed the 3 ursurpers as they all died shortly after.

Errrrr. No. That leech burning scene was just for Melisandre to show 'her power' to kill those three Kings, while she probably only saw their deaths in the flames and used that as an excuse for her power.