Again With the Small Questions

[Jolene Brown]

I posted this in the "literature" forum on the boarders writing a novel thread, but I think it's appropriate here too, and likelier to get answered! I just finished a novel and now I am thinking about the next one I want to write. The last one jumped between two points of view, but they were from separate storylines in separate time periods. This time I want to go back and forth between two points of view telling the same story from their own perspective.

I know GRRM did this a couple of times within a section of some of the books - I think Blackwater goes back and forth between Davos and Sansa for 5-6 chapters, doesn't it? I also thought about Tyrion/Sansa's wedding/marriage, which is mostly from Tyrion's POV but at one point goes Tyrion/Sansa/Tyrion. And perhaps the RW? Was that Arya/Catelyn/Arya? Can anyone think of other examples? I want to read them all to see how GRRM uses that technique. I write literary fiction, not fantasy, but I think the basic principles of pacing and characterization are pretty universal and something GRRM does really well in those sections.

[FanTasy]

I posted this in the "literature" forum on the boarders writing a novel thread, but I think it's appropriate here too, and likelier to get answered! I just finished a novel and now I am thinking about the next one I want to write. The last one jumped between two points of view, but they were from separate storylines in separate time periods. This time I want to go back and forth between two points of view telling the same story from their own perspective.

I know GRRM did this a couple of times within a section of some of the books - I think Blackwater goes back and forth between Davos and Sansa for 5-6 chapters, doesn't it? I also thought about Tyrion/Sansa's wedding/marriage, which is mostly from Tyrion's POV but at one point goes Tyrion/Sansa/Tyrion. And perhaps the RW? Was that Arya/Catelyn/Arya? Can anyone think of other examples? I want to read them all to see how GRRM uses that technique. I write literary fiction, not fantasy, but I think the basic principles of pacing and characterization are pretty universal and something GRRM does really well in those sections.

What GRRM did with the chapters in AFFC and ADWD comes to mind, the chapters that tell the same storyline from two perspectives, Samwell and Jon. Very clever writing, although much of the text was exactly what I read before it was a thrilling read.

[rmholt]

On my 3rd reread of aCoK and came across this in the Catelyn chapter where she visits Jaime in the Riverrun dungeon. Jaime says "I think it passing odd that I am loved by one for a kindness I never did, and reviled by so many for my finest act." His "finest act" was slaying King Aerys, but what was the "kindness I never did?"

He's probably referring to Tyrion, who thinks that Jaime tried to arrange for him to lose his virginity with a prostitute. This is of course a lie that Tywin made Jaime tell. This is supported by Jaime's thoughts in ASOS, in which he says to himself that Tyrion loved him for a lie.

It's interesting how this all reversed itself. Killing Aerys was not his finest act, at least his motivations werent pure. He did it for his Dad, not to rid the world of a bad king. He didnt HAVE to be the one to kill Aerys. Ned was on the way. This is what he was referring to, I believe, when he told Cat about all the oaths - protect your king, defend your family...

Tywin was no stranger to betraying a king, in fact he was the actual conqueror of KL - Lannister men backed off for Ned and Robert's men.

So Jaime deserved to be reviled for killing the King.

As to Tyrion, once he found out that Jaime had lied to him, he became very bitter and angry - so he became reviled by Tyrion for that. His big brother didnt have his back.

Interesting that Jaime wants to be like dad but the more he grows, the less like Tywin he becomes.

[Jolene Brown]

How was Jaime supposed to know that Ned was on his way? He's not a mind-reader and he doesn't have the power to see the future (except maybe in those 2 prophetic dreams he had! :) ). The battle for King's Landing was on-going, he had no idea who the next people to come to the throneroom would be. It could just as easily have been Targaryan supporters.

[rmholt]

What do you think about Sandor surviving and pledging himself to Lady Stone? I always thought we would see his redemption going further after his episode with Arya

Definitely a step backward in his spiritual growth. IMHO.

[rmholt]

How was Jaime supposed to know that Ned was on his way? He's not a mind-reader and he doesn't have the power to see the future (except maybe in those 2 prophetic dreams he had! :) ). The battle for King's Landing was on-going, he had no idea who the next people to come to the throneroom would be. It could just as easily have been Targaryan supporters.

He knew his dad was coming. Also, perhaps, ravens. Darry was loyal to Targs and might have sent a warning, IDK. But I dont think he acted in a bubble. He might have TOLD himself he was protecting the city from being torched but KL does have dungeons.

[Belandra Waters]

They are protecting, and serving, the legitmate heir (Jon Targaryen), not the Usurper. Robert is not their king, just a murderous rebel.

The KG transfered from Robert to Joffrey because Joffrey was Robert's heir (or so they understood).

Ahhh...so herein lies my confusion. I thought that Robert WAS their king. So the oath sworn for life by the members of the Kingsguard isn't really for their lives, it's really for the life of the dynasty. I suppose it wouldn't be very politic to qualify their oaths that way because it would suggest that there could be an end to the dynasty within their life-spans. Cersei actually had it mostly correct then when she asked, "Whose life? Yours or the King's?" of Ser Barristan on his involuntary retirement when he protested that his oath was for life,

[WhiteWolf26]

It's interesting how this all reversed itself. Killing Aerys was not his finest act, at least his motivations werent pure. He did it for his Dad, not to rid the world of a bad king. He didnt HAVE to be the one to kill Aerys. Ned was on the way. This is what he was referring to, I believe, when he told Cat about all the oaths - protect your king, defend your family...

Tywin was no stranger to betraying a king, in fact he was the actual conqueror of KL - Lannister men backed off for Ned and Robert's men.

So Jaime deserved to be reviled for killing the King.

As to Tyrion, once he found out that Jaime had lied to him, he became very bitter and angry - so he became reviled by Tyrion for that. His big brother didnt have his back.

Interesting that Jaime wants to be like dad but the more he grows, the less like Tywin he becomes.

I think he did it because Aerys was giving the order to burn the city with wildfire.

[WhiteWolf26]

Also, were the Lannisters already sacking the city when Jaime killed Aerys? If so he could be lying to himself about his motivations...

[rmholt]

Ahhh...so herein lies my confusion. I thought that Robert WAS their king. So the oath sworn for life by the members of the Kingsguard isn't really for their lives, it's really for the life of the dynasty. I suppose it wouldn't be very politic to qualify their oaths that way because it would suggest that there could be an end to the dynasty within their life-spans. Cersei actually had it mostly correct then when she asked, "Whose life? Yours or the King's?" of Ser Barristan on his involuntary retirement when he protested that his oath was for life,

It can be more complicated than that. Jaime and Barristan had to be pardoned (which for Jaime might have been de facto) to serve Robert. KG serve for life but are expected to die for their king. Now, Barristan was unable to die because his wounds were enough to incapacitate him but not kill him, and Robert had him healed and pardoned him.

All the KG that were present did not save Robert OR Joffrey, so it was a conscious decision to keep them. They do serve for life, unless they dont (Boros and Barristan) - I get the feeling that dismissing a KG for without legitimate cause was a new Lannister innovation. Reinstating one after being dismissed for cause was also a new thing I think. It is not explicitly stated if KG continue to serve the heir upon the homicide of the king. Possibly this is because KG who outlive the murdered king were rare and those who were felt to be guiltless need to be pardoned and reinstated. Who knows?

[rmholt]

I think he did it because Aerys was giving the order to burn the city with wildfire.

Again, that is what he told himself. If he had thought things through and wanted to protect the king he could have.

Dungeons.

[rmholt]

Also, were the Lannisters already sacking the city when Jaime killed Aerys? If so he could be lying to himself about his motivations...

Yes. The pyromancers were already dead though. Jaime also did not protect Aerys family from his own family.

[Dragonfish]

It is not explicitly stated if KG continue to serve the heir upon the homicide of the king.

It may not be stated, but it has been shown that this is what happens, many many times. The Kingsguard who served Robert immediately began to serve Joffrey when he became king. They serve for life, including into old age, and that necessarily requires some of them to outlive some kings and continue to serve their heirs.

[rmholt]

It may not be stated, but it has been shown that this is what happens, many many times. The Kingsguard who served Robert immediately began to serve Joffrey when he became king. They serve for life, including into old age, and that necessarily requires some of them to outlive some kings and continue to serve their heirs.

I mean to say, if I didnt, that the successor would probably have to accept the KG carryover but that is just my opinion. I would think that in the case of regicide, where the KG are present, this would be even more likely.

[Jolene Brown]

Yes. The pyromancers were already dead though. Jaime also did not protect Aerys family from his own family.

They were not already dead! There were 2 left that he killed later. Again, Jaime says himself that he "never thought he [Tywin] would hurt them." This is the "final battle" in a war that has been going on for a year. He is one person in one place. He is not omnipotent. He can not see outside walls. He doesn't know what is going on in every place in King's Landing, a city of 500,000 people. He doesn't actually KNOW who is winning. Why? Because Aerys has kept him in the throne room, as a near hostage, the whole time! The only way to be sure Aerys will not blow up the city is to kill him, "so he can't find someone else to take a message to the pyromancers," as Jaime says. Put him in a dungeon? What if someone lets him out? Gag him? What if someone unties him? There is no other way to be 100% sure.

[rmholt]

They were not already dead! There were 2 left that he killed later. Again, Jaime says himself that he "never thought he [Tywin] would hurt them." This is the "final battle" in a war that has been going on for a year. He is one person in one place. He is not omnipotent. He can not see outside walls. He doesn't know what is going on in every place in King's Landing, a city of 500,000 people. He doesn't actually KNOW who is winning. Why? Because Aerys has kept him in the throne room, as a near hostage, the whole time! The only way to be sure Aerys will not blow up the city is to kill him, "so he can't find someone else to take a message to the pyromancers," as Jaime says. Put him in a dungeon? What if someone lets him out? Gag him? What if someone unties him? There is no other way to be 100% sure.

He didnt protect the King's heir. This is because he didnt think Tywin would hurt them? OK, but that suggests he thought he could have done something differently to protect the fam.

He managed to get out of the castle long enough to kill the pyromancers one of whom was pretending to be a smallfolk. They dont generally hang out inside the castle.

ETA - sorry I am pretty sure the pyromancers were killed first. I'll recheck that.

[Jolene Brown]

ETA - sorry I am pretty sure the pyromancers were killed first. I'll recheck that.

Rossart was killed first. Garrigus and Belis (or something like that) were killed a few days later. I don't think Rossart was pretending to be a smallfolk, he was pretending to be a guard hurrying to a gate - he was hurrying to a gate because he was still inside.

He didn't think he needed to protect the family because presumably they had guards. When they ask him who to make king he thinks of "Aegon, SAFE with his mother in Maegor's Holdfast." He thought they were safe and guarded. He had no idea Gregor Clegane and Amory Lynch were scaling the walls.

[rmholt]

Rossart was killed first. Garrigus and Belis (or something like that) were killed a few days later. I don't think Rossart was pretending to be a smallfolk, he was pretending to be a guard hurrying to a gate - he was hurrying to a gate because he was still inside.

He didn't think he needed to protect the family because presumably they had guards. When they ask him who to make king he thinks of "Aegon, SAFE with his mother in Maegor's Holdfast." He thought they were safe and guarded. He had no idea Gregor Clegane and Amory Lynch were scaling the walls.

Pretty sure he was sent to KL specifically (it was said) to guard the family before Aerys returned from Harrenhal. No reason I would expect his duty to change, tho it was a false pretense, it was handy as apparently they needed guarding. Jaime would be in charge of whatever guards were there.

I still need to look up whether the pyromancers went first; I really thought they had.

[WhiteWolf26]

Rossart was killed first. Garrigus and Belis (or something like that) were killed a few days later. I don't think Rossart was pretending to be a smallfolk, he was pretending to be a guard hurrying to a gate - he was hurrying to a gate because he was still inside.

He didn't think he needed to protect the family because presumably they had guards. When they ask him who to make king he thinks of "Aegon, SAFE with his mother in Maegor's Holdfast." He thought they were safe and guarded. He had no idea Gregor Clegane and Amory Lynch were scaling the walls.

This is how I remember it as well.

[WhiteWolf26]

Is it ever stated Jaime was at Harrenhall?