From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa XII

[Kittykatknits]

Since this is a bit fangirlish, I'm putting in spoiler tags.

I don't usually look at fan videos, but I stumbled across this. Seems rather appropriate considering recent Beauty and the Beast conversations.

warning: Disney crack

[brashcandy]

<<very coherent post>> :)

Yes the infantilization makes me see red. I think when we consider the Sansan relationship, we also have to look at how Sansa perceives Sandor and reacts to him. Does she see him as a terror (to her), or does she believe she was victimized by him? No, and no. In nearly every other significant relationship she's had - LF and Tyrion - she's felt deeply disturbed by their attentions, and has attempted to escape them. Littlefinger has to resort to a perverted daddy/daughter charade in order to elicit affection from her, and Tyrion's desires completely collapsed in light of her unyielding rejection.

[Caro99]

Since this is a bit fangirlish, I'm putting in spoiler tags.

I don't usually look at fan videos, but I stumbled across this. Seems rather appropriate considering recent Beauty and the Beast conversations.

warning: Disney crack

Oh kitty that was lovely!! LOL, and it made my day! i'm doing the disney film analysis so this certainly caught my fangirl shipper's heart X)

Btw, just wanted to agree with all of you girls on your accurate defence of Sandor. The fact that he just wants her for herself and not because she has a claim to winterfell, or because she was a beautiful girl who would fit into their desire to have a nice wife whom he could start a family with, or because she looks like her mother, means that he does care about how he treated her in KL, showing us how far he's come in such a little time from the man we first saw mocking Robb in winterfell's training yard. Sansa makes him aspire to be better and if sansa prefers him in the end it would make her a better person as well. not because she married the hound and cheered my heart, but because she would have then decided for herself the man she wanted and would thus have a happy life, making her a better person; a person who survived the game and had the backbone to fight for her belief.

[bgona]

This post in another thread also made me consider some things. To me, this does not really describe the true nature of things, although I can see where the poster is coming from. We've looked at Sansa's patriarch's before and how, if LF ends up deadened, Sansa may be without, yet has it been a problem with "abusive" men who never listens?

I'd like some more time to sift through this myself, but I wonder if a lot of what is in the body of this post does not reflect why people are so averse to Sansa having any type of feelings for Sandor?

There's also the fact that sure, Ned didn't listen to Sansa's pleas to stay in Kings Landing, and the Hound didn't immediately let her go when he held her face, but are any of these things comparable to LF plotting to behead her father, Tyrion forcing her into a marriage or Joffrey having her repeatedly beaten? Is there a "severity" level here somewhere and does it have meaning?

Regret is also brought up: in that Sandor deeply regrets how he treated her and that he could not do more for her in Kings Landing, Tyrion seems to realise after a while that Sansa and he will never be happy, and he comes to regret going along with the marriage, more or less, but LF shows no regret, and Dontos seems convinced the Tyrells are as bad as the Lannisters. Does regret matter?

There's also the comparison with romance novels which I don't think holds water (for a lot of the "traditional" Mills & Boon type romance novels), but as I am having a kid-in-lap issue I can't really type it out right now.

Thoughts?

I will not say more about all the other things, you have said really good, and I agree with all.

About the Harlequin romance novels: I have read these past weeks some of Kinley MacGregor jajajaja. Not at all my regular readings. But I have found a lot of coincidences. These are novels based on Middle Age, mostly Scotland. Mostly the male character is tall, dark hair and skillfull with weapons. Even some of them are compaired with bears, and also with kind of torturated souls. The female character are all maidens, some with red hair. Sometimes she is runing away of a non-desire marriage.

Their interactions made them to feel like what the male figure at the begining as lust and ending realising that they are in love. This love is the one that cure their soul. Mostly is the maiden love with realize the cure. All in a light view of the world.

I believe that GRRM likes to use prototypes and after turn them and sourprise all of us. He goes beyond this prototype of romance model to show all the damage, all the emotions. I love his writing cause he makes me feel and thought. And just compare him with this kind of novels is just staying at the surface and not deepening into his world.

[bgona]

Oh! I just forget about the cloak: look to all the Stark that survive with POV (at least, maybe another POV they also have one). They have a white and red tokken that it is important, that define each one and what they will turn in.

Jon has Ghost, an albino direwolf (red eyes and white fur) and he turns into a skinchanger.

Arya has Jaqen H´ghar with his hair white and red. He is a FM and Arya is in her way of being one.

Bran climbed to a wairwood tree and felt sleep when he was a child. He is more than a greenseer, he can see thru the trees.

Sansa has the cloak (white with red blood). It can be related of her as a marriage tool, but also with love.

[brashcandy]

I enjoy a good tawdry romance like anyone else, but I'm frequently rolling my eyes as I turn the pages, albeit rapidly :P Reading about Sansa and Sandor has never made me roll my eyes once.

[Kittykatknits]

Yes this is how I see it too. In fact, the time he grabs her on the roof it's because he thinks she is going to fall, though admittedly she then asks him to let go.

Yes, this is the big thing for me - that Sandor seems truly genuinely sorry for his actions. It's also my reasoning for liking him when people argue that he's a child murderer who laughed at killing a child and just because he was acting on someone else's orders doesn't excuse him. Those are all true, but little by little we see him slowly transferring his loyalty to Sansa, the daughter of the man who never ever accepted child murder under any circumstances, and wanting to serve the Starks, and in the end Sandor comes to regret all those acts, including Mycah, very deeply.

He's been changing from the time we are introduced. He goes from making fun of Robb in the practice yard at the beginning of GOT to denying it at the end. Then, as soon as Clash opens up, he's lying to the prince. It's a very consistent pattern. Just as some readers can form an opinion about Sansa in Game over her idealism and the Lady incident, I think the same happens to Sandor when it comes to Mycah. I'm not saying that his actions were OK here as I do not think this is the case. Rather, that act causes the rest of his character arc to be missed.

Yes the infantilization makes me see red. I think when we consider the Sansan relationship, we also have to look at how Sansa perceives Sandor and reacts to him. Does she see him as a terror (to her), or does she believe she was victimized by him? No, and no. In nearly every other significant relationship she's had - LF and Tyrion - she's felt deeply disturbed by their attentions, and has attempted to escape them. Littlefinger has to resort to a perverted daddy/daughter charade in order to elicit affection from her, and Tyrion's desires completely collapsed in light of her unyielding rejection.

I wish this was noticed a bit more with her. Sansa has been very good understanding sources of danger from other men and her judgments are spot on. The fact that Sandor is an exception is significant.

Sansa has the cloak (white with red blood). It can be related of her as a marriage tool, but also with love.

Great catch!!!

I enjoy a good tawdry romance like anyone else, but I'm frequently rolling my eyes as I turn the pages, albeit rapidly :P Reading about Sansa and Sandor has never made me roll my eyes once.

I read them at times too when I need a break or want an easy read. But, I find that I forget the name of the book and characters within a day or so of finishing. There is nothing in the books for me to reflect on, think about, or analyze. I can not say the same thing about the two of them.

[Milady of York]

Milady has had her fill of tawdry romances as well, and wants to confess to loathing most of them. She presently avoids them like the grey plague. Neither does she watch romantic films despite repetitive attempts from her friends to strong-arm her into watching and reading Twilight, for example.

And that’s why Milady sees a bright shade of red when she’s thrown into the Twilight fandom pile so thoughtlessly. That it is done in an indirect manner doesn’t make it less offensive.

Because Milady’s preferred romances are found in well-written historical novels, her favourite genre, ancient tales and classics. Tears flow through Milady’s eyes when reading old Greek love stories like Habrecomes & Anthia, Russian classics like Yuri & Lara, or historically-based ones like Prince Llewelyn ap Iorwerth & Joanna… Romances with loads and loads of background storylines, densely complicated arcs, deeply flawed yet lovable characters, humanised heroes and non-cartoonish villains, long-winded plots, war, treachery, misunderstanding, suffering, tears, smiles, songs, cursing, sadness, lust. In two words: beautifully realistic.

And that’s why Milady raises a fine and naturally overly arched eyebrow every time someone implies her loving Sansa alone or together with Sandor is somehow wrong, whitewashing, puerile, condoning paedophilia, rape, and half the nasty terms there are in the dictionary. Same goes for infantilisation, Sansa bingo, bashing and not so subtle accusations of being too optimistic and wishful thinking when analysing her arc.

Because Milady is acutely aware of Sansa’s flaws, and Sandor’s. After reading 19 threads for him and 6 rereading/12 rethinking for her, plus countless appreciation threads, vs. threads, hate threads, praise threads, a new project and so on, Milady sees both ends of the spectrum. She made a conscious choice to focus on character analysis from all possible angles.

That’s why Milady is here. Because she wants to learn, to find out more, to see what hidden meanings, clues, new interpretations other readers have come with. Because in her opinion the chief measure of a character’s greatness is the positive effect they have in your cultural level.

Now, what’s Milady talking about? When she was a sweet child of summer studying history, she got herself into a debate about historical accuracy in Historical Fiction, and among others, a thing struck her hard: many History aficionados had begun studying on their own because of a good novel. A good novel that had interesting figures from the past as characters often made people want to know more about those. You read the Sunne in Splendour and loved it? Off you go to hunt for good academic works about the Wars of the Roses. You read The Persian Boy and it moved you? Off you go to read the ancient sources on Alexander the Great… Milady’s mentor taught her never to underestimate a fictional work’s impact on people’s education, for it acts both as a catalyst for further learning and as a motivator.

We see it with Sansa in this case: because she interests us so much, she has made us get ourselves neck-deep in researching other subjects such as history, mythology, literature, music, films, psychology, women’s studies, medicine, law, philosophy, etc. All in the name of understanding her better. By doing this analysis some may despise as positively biased, we are becoming a lot more knowledgeable about subjects than we would be otherwise. Do we think Sansa’s having drunk some wine might have influenced her behaviour at the Trident, or do we think Snow Winterfell foreshadows something good for her? We go to read a good book on neuropsychology or myths, learning a lot in the process just because we happen to love her.

And that’s why it’s hurtful and demeaning to be told, frankly or subtly, that she’s nothing but a meek victim unable to lift a finger to help herself and we’re doing no less than projecting our desires upon her, or any similar reasoning. It belittles our efforts, dismisses our long hours of reading and thinking and posting as best as we can. That people don’t like her is fine, but to pretend we just swallow hard and hang our heads in shame every time something incorrect is said about her and/or us as fans of hers, is to expect too much. Knowledge implies responsibility. That’s why we’ll always answer back when we perceive something is not correct: we haven’t started this long series of threads for nothing.

Milady, like some others here, happens to dislike vs. comparisons especially in relation to the younger Stark sister. Milady’s mentor used to say when flame wars were started with topics like “who’s the better general: Napoleon or Caesar”, that history wasn’t a videogame and you couldn’t compare a Lamborghini to a Ford T: circunstances, means, personalities, etc., were different, and you didn’t need to shoot the perceived rival down for your favourite to shine brighter in comparison. In fact, it could even be counterproductive. “What kind of victory is that if you consider your opponent worthless,” he used to say, “wouldn’t it reflect badly on you to win over an unworthy rival?”

Milady tries to apply this to ASOIAF: she likes Sansa for her qualities and her story, her strengths and her failings. Other characters might be more compelling, funnier, badasser, smarter, cooler, handsomer, taller, warmer, prettier, stronger, better… Other characters might be more deserving of her time. Other character might be worth the pain. But Milady has freely chosen this one, not because she thinks Sansa is the greatest of all time, or even better than X or Y, but because she sees her as worthy of her time and effort for herself and only for herself. Milady happens to be also fond of a certain doggie, warts and all, for similar reasons. And she will not backpedal on her choice; preferences don’t require justifications nor slinging mud at other characters.

This, to wrap it all up, is why Milady is on her way to uncork a bottle of good red wine and drink to the health of a certain George R.R. Martin, the magnificent bastard who created such great characters as Sansa of House Stark and Sandor of House Clegane…

[Valkyrja]

<snip>

AMAZING POST FILLED WITH AMAZINGNESS

</snip>

This, to wrap it all up, is why Milady is on her way to uncork a bottle of good red wine and drink to the health of a certain George R.R. Martin, the magnificent bastard who created such great characters as Sansa of House Stark and Sandor of House Clegane…

:bowdown:

Valkyrja eagerly joins Milady of York in raising a glass to GRRM, and to these two most excellent characters. :cheers:

ETA: And I am nodding my head vigorously in agreement wrt to how reading historical fiction (or even, *gasp* historical fantasy!) can cause one to become enamoured with, and want to learn more about, actual history, literature, mythology, folklore, music, etc, etc, etc. (My own life story is case in point.....)

[Elba the Intoner]

I had to run out to a dinner function and the whole time was thinking about the questions regarding this post and I came back here to elaborate on my earlier point only to find that Kittykatknits had said the exact same thing I was thinking here -

I do think there is a severity issue here. Ned didn't listen to her about wanting to stay in KL but I think his mistake was not in wanting that to happen but in his failure to explain to her what is really happening. His goal was to keep his children safe and I don't fault him for that, my issue is with his failure to communicate with her.

I mean, sure who doesn't want Sansa or any girl to be believed when she says no and for her to be taken seriously. This thought is great in a vacuum with no other context. But placing Ned in the list of all the men who don't listen to Sansa when she says no makes absolutely no sense in context. He's her father and sometimes a parent has to say no to their child lest you want them to turn into a Sweet Robin. He had a very good reason for saying no too, which was to protect her, and the fault in what he did here was not that he disregarded Sansa's wants, but that he failed to make her understand why he was sending her away against her wishes. To put Ned on this list along with guys like Littlefinger and Joffrey as another example of a man who doesn't care about what Sansa wants or doesn't want is not logical because they are completely different scenarios.

{snip}

This, to wrap it all up, is why Milady is on her way to uncork a bottle of good red wine and drink to the health of a certain George R.R. Martin, the magnificent bastard who created such great characters as Sansa of House Stark and Sandor of House Clegane…

Milady, this was genius! I drink to you. :cheers:

[Kittykatknits]

I mean, sure who doesn't want Sansa or any girl to be believed when she says no and for her to be taken seriously. This thought is great in a vacuum with no other context. But placing Ned in the list of all the men who don't listen to Sansa when she says no makes absolutely no sense in context. He's her father and sometimes a parent has to say no to their child lest you want them to turn into a Sweet Robin. He had a very good reason for saying no too, which was to protect her, and the fault in what he did here was not that he disregarded Sansa's wants, but that he failed to make her understand why he was sending her away against her wishes. To put Ned on this list along with guys like Littlefinger and Joffrey as another example of a man who doesn't care about what Sansa wants or doesn't want is not logical because they are completely different scenarios.

Yep, I have a friend who tells her kids that she will always do her best to explain her reasoning to them but there will be times when she needs them to immediately do what she says for safety reasons. That sorta applies here. Ned's need to get her and Arya out of KL was important and urgent, yet not immediate. I struggle to understand why he decided to keep her so ignorant that I find myself default to the idea that the plot needed it.

Well said.

This, to wrap it all up, is why Milady is on her way to uncork a bottle of good red wine and drink to the health of a certain George R.R. Martin, the magnificent bastard who created such great characters as Sansa of House Stark and Sandor of House Clegane…

Valkyrja eagerly joins Milady of York in raising a glass to GRRM, and to these two most excellent characters. :cheers:

Milady, this was genius! I drink to you. :cheers:

I'll join you in raising a glass but of a non-alcoholic variety, while gazing at your lovely red with poorly concealed envy.

[brashcandy]

I'll join you in raising a glass but of a non-alcoholic variety, while gazing at your lovely red with poorly concealed envy.

Hmmmm :)

*post extraordinaire*

I'll uncork my bottle soon enough ;)

Personally, I don't think I've ever come across a book/series like ASOIAF where there is such blatant refusal in a large part of the readership to recognize the romantic potential of a couple. Makes no sense to me. :dunno:

[Pod The Impaler]

Sansa makes friends easily enough. She's charismatic and gracious enough to get on well with people.

Arya can make friends fairly well, but the style is different - Arya's fairly bold.

If you want to compare, see what sort of friends they have - often highborn vs. lowborn. Arya is not much for social graces (even though she knows them), so perhaps she does not put on any pretense with highborn people. She befriends lowborn and highborn alike, children and even adults.

Sansa has what you could call a "class filter" - at least prior to becoming "Alayne Stone". The lowborn were really not her sort of people. Beth Cassel and Jeyne Poole were not exactly children of lords, but they were children of important people in Winterfell. People quite a bit older than her were also not really in her circle of friends - she got on well, with Septa Mordane and probably Old Nan, but they were not friends. One might infer also filters her options again, based on her age cohort.

By contrast Arya does not seem to filter people by group at all - only relying on her instinct of whether she likes or dislikes them to guide her.

So, I would not say Sansa is unable to make friends - in the story she clearly can charm people, but aside from her "filters", there is also the bigger issue of her situation (prisoner, then fugitive) which greatly curtails the positive interactions she might have, or damages those she already has.

[Kittykatknits]

Hmmmm :)

I'll uncork my bottle soon enough ;)

Personally, I don't think I've ever come across a book/series like ASOIAF where there is such blatant refusal in a large part of the readership to recognize the romantic potential of a couple. Makes no sense to me. :dunno:

Me either but I've never spent time in a larger fandom like ASOIAF.

And I'm knocked up. Been fine so far but had to buy a bunch of wine as gifts today and it gave me a Sad.

[Valkyrja]

Me either but I've never spent time in a larger fandom like ASOIAF.

And I'm knocked up. Been fine so far but had to buy a bunch of wine as gifts today and it gave me a Sad.

I had an inkling when you said that! Congrats, kittykatknits! Looks like there will be another little kittykat-kitten in the future. ;)

And don't feel too envious of me.....I have a confession to make.....I don't actually drink alcohol! (The glass I raised was full of coconut water, lol.) Not even a drop of Dornish Red......Sandor would be so disappointed. :P

[brashcandy]

And I'm knocked up. Been fine so far but had to buy a bunch of wine as gifts today and it gave me a Sad.

Congrats, congrats, Kitty!!!!! You know what this means? I'm officially christening this baby as our PtP thread baby!!! :)

[Kittykatknits]

I had an inkling when you said that! Congrats, kittykatknits! Looks like there will be another little kittykat-kitten in the future. ;)

And don't feel too envious of me.....I have a confession to make.....I don't actually drink alcohol! (The glass I raised was full of coconut water, lol.) Not even a drop of Dornish Red......Sandor would be so disappointed. :P

Congrats, congrats, Kitty!!!!! You know what this means? I'm officially christening this baby as our PtP thread baby!!! :)

Aww, thanks guys. You should know that if this is a girl, her middle name will be Sansa. I lost the bet last time so I've already got an Arya. I'm due a Sansa. If it's a boy,,,it's Tyrion! Ha ha,,,no it isn't. No way...

[Lady Lea]

Awww congratulations Kitty!!! <3 How lovely! I'm really happy for you!

Will it be a Sansa this time? or a... Jaime? :D

(ETA: woo! ninja'd! but I got it right!)

[Kittykatknits]

Awww congratulations Kitty!!! <3 How lovely! I'm really happy for you!

Will it be a Sansa this time? or a... Jaime? :D

(ETA: woo! ninja'd! but I got it right!)

Thanks. Jaime is on the short list for a boy. I'm sure you can guess the other name on it....:)

[Lady Lea]

Thanks. Jaime is on the short list for a boy. I'm sure you can guess the other name on it.... :)

My God, seriously Kitty. This is me rn.