Daenerys and Torture

[SeanF]

On another thread, I was critical of Daenerys for employing a torturer, the Shavepate as one of her chief advisers. In a fit of anger, she gives him leave to torture a wineseller's daughters in front of their father, and it's clear from the text that she doesn't care whether they're innocent or guilty.

What's worse is that this is isn't a one-off. The Shavepate is well known to be a torturer. Hizdahr comments that after a day in his hands, he'd confess to being a Son of the Harpy; after two days, he'd confess to being the Harpy; after three, he'd confess to murdering Dany's father. On other occasions, he advises ripping out the tongue of a farmer who thinks Drogon killed his child, and is annoyed that Dany won't kill child hostages in retaliation for the acts of the Sons of the Harpy. It is to Dany's credit that she rejects that advice, but surely to her discredit that she employs such a man. It's unlikely that Dany approves each and every act of torture that the Shavepate carries out, but she does carry responsibility for his acts.

But is this too harsh? Torture of suspects seems to be pretty routine in Essos and Westeros. The Arryns, Lannisters, and Baratheons all torture prisoners, and that doesn't even take into account the characters who torture for the fun of it. Even in real life, in modern times, liberal democratic governments have resorted to torture, in the face of ruthless terrorist campaigns (and the Sons of the Harpy are a particularly nasty terrorist outfit).

So, am I holding Dany to a standard that's completely unrealistic, given the nature of her society, the terrorist campaign she faces, and the behaviour that's expected of rulers?

[Lady Sansa Stark]

Just because others also torture, doesn't mean it's acceptable that Daenerys tortures people. People always say she has a sense of right and wrong etc. and she clearly has, but when her anger flares, as seen in the case of the wineseller's daughters, she doesn't seem to have any problem with torture. This could prove to be very dangerous. Not that I care, I don't want her to win the Iron Throne and so on.

The Starks for example, don't torture. I don't see the Tully's torture either, but maybe I'm mistaken on that one. If she starts torturing people, she immediately loses any legitimacy she had, if she had any.

[danm_999]

So, am I holding Dany to a standard that's completely unrealistic, given the nature of her society, the terrorist campaign she faces, and the behaviour that's expected of rulers?

I'm struggling to think of an example in ASOIAF where someone is proxy tortured; ie specifically innocent people are tortured in order to "break" the resolve of another person suspected of some crime. But Daenerys' does order this, and worse, she does it in a fit of anger.

I'm also struggling to think of a situation where the person ordering the torture has their natural inclination overriden by a fit of anger, save Cersei, who isn't exactly someone Daenerys wants to emulate. But even Cersei bothers to go down to the oubliettes and witness the fruits of Qyburn's labour.

[SeanF]

I suspect the Starks don't resort to torture, but I think they have unusually high moral standards.

[sillent]

Yeah you cant really use it as an excuse- and I think this is one of the main things I hate about Dany, how she chooses her battles and retains her holier than thou attitude. I dont condone rape, but I do condone marital rape (dothraki).. I dont have an issue with slavery, until going anti-slavery becomes quite profitable.. same with this torture thing (well maybe its slightly different but still)

[danm_999]

I suspect the Starks don't resort to torture, but I think they have unusually high moral standards.

Well, the Stark creed is predicated on this notion:

If you would take a man’s life, you owe it to him to look into his eyes and hear his final words. And if you cannot bear to do that, then perhaps the man does not deserve to die.

So yeah, I don't think Targaryen notions of justice are the same.

[ab aeterno]

So yeah, I don't think Targaryen notions of justice are the same.

I don't know, I think Aerys too great pleasure in looking into his victims eyes and hearing their final words, from what we are told...

[sillent]

Maybe this is slightly off topic, but given that there isn't really a viable solution to coming up with a good legal system in Westeros- given that we have the NW, which already gets a lot of recruits who barely committed a crime or were framed, I kind of wish instead of torturing victims into a fake confession followed by beheading- if all inconclusive cases were decided either by "trial by combat" or the judge just decides to let the prisoner go, or then ship him off to the wall

[ab aeterno]

Maybe this is slightly off topic, but given that there isn't really a viable solution to coming up with a good legal system in Westeros- given that we have the NW, which already gets a lot of recruits who barely committed a crime or were framed, I kind of wish instead of torturing victims into a fake confession followed by beheading- if all inconclusive cases were decided either by "trial by combat" or the judge just decides to let the prisoner go, or then ship him off to the wall

That's part of the problem though. As evidenced by Jon's POVs, the vast majority of these people would just die more painfully in a trial by combat because they would have no training or experience and likely be fighting knights.

With regards to the Wall... I can't remember, are all criminals allowed to request to join the Watch, or is it only when there are recruiters around?

[SeanF]

I'm struggling to think of an example in ASOIAF where someone is proxy tortured; ie specifically innocent people are tortured in order to "break" the resolve of another person suspected of some crime. But Daenerys' does order this, and worse, she does it in a fit of anger.

I think that was one of the Tickler's tricks, but I doubt if that's someone Dany would want to be compared to.

Actually, I think it would be pretty chilling if Dany ordered such a thing without being angry.

[SeanF]

That's part of the problem though. As evidenced by Jon's POVs, the vast majority of these people would just die more painfully in a trial by combat because they would have no training or experience and likely be fighting knights.

With regards to the Wall... I can't remember, are all criminals allowed to request to join the Watch, or is it only when there are recruiters around?

I think it's very much at the discretion of the judge.

[ab aeterno]

I think it's very much at the discretion of the judge.

Yeah, I suspect so. Similar to Lysa- it would take too long in most cases to wait for a NWman to come and collect the criminals, so the presiding lord would probably demand a trial before that. I think that they can usually opt to join the watch for crimes such as rape or theft though, i.e. non-capital crimes, but it is hard to say.

[sillent]

That's part of the problem though. As evidenced by Jon's POVs, the vast majority of these people would just die more painfully in a trial by combat because they would have no training or experience and likely be fighting knights.

With regards to the Wall... I can't remember, are all criminals allowed to request to join the Watch, or is it only when there are recruiters around?

I'm not sure but isnt "trial by combat" something the accused can call for? Maybe it goes both ways but most of the time its the guy being sentenced that invokes that right..

About the Wall thing I'm not entirely sure, but I have a feeling its just a punishment most people don't want.. maybe this quote is only in the tv show and not the books but 'most rapers choosing the knife over the wall'. Anyway I'm pretty sure people have been sent to the wall when there wasnt a recruiter nearby, and I'm sure the wall would welcome more people even if their quality is questionable..

[sillent]

Yeah, I suspect so. Similar to Lysa- it would take too long in most cases to wait for a NWman to come and collect the criminals, so the presiding lord would probably demand a trial before that. I think that they can usually opt to join the watch for crimes such as rape or theft though, i.e. non-capital crimes, but it is hard to say.

maybe the rules are different with important people as rules normally are, but Janos Slynt and the possibility of Ned, Theon and even Tyrion werent for non-capital crimes

[SeanF]

Yeah you cant really use it as an excuse- and I think this is one of the main things I hate about Dany, how she chooses her battles and retains her holier than thou attitude. I dont condone rape, but I do condone marital rape (dothraki).. I dont have an issue with slavery, until going anti-slavery becomes quite profitable.. same with this torture thing (well maybe its slightly different but still)

In fairness, I think her hatred of slavery is quite sincere. A lot of people only come to view something as being wrong once they experience it at first hand, rather than in abstract terms. And, what she discovers in Astapor sickens her.

[ab aeterno]

maybe the rules are different with important people as rules normally are, but Janos Slynt and the possibility of Ned, Theon and even Tyrion werent for non-capital crimes

I meant more that for commoners, yeah. No-one's going to let a "guilty" peasant sit around and be fed while they wait for the watch, or spare the resources to send someone with them.

I'm not sure but isnt "trial by combat" something the accused can call for? Maybe it goes both ways but most of the time its the guy being sentenced that invokes that right..

About the Wall thing I'm not entirely sure, but I have a feeling its just a punishment most people don't want.. maybe this quote is only in the tv show and not the books but 'most rapers choosing the knife over the wall'. Anyway I'm pretty sure people have been sent to the wall when there wasnt a recruiter nearby, and I'm sure the wall would welcome more people even if their quality is questionable..

Yeah, I believe that is the accused's right, but I think the lord has the discretion of of choosing when the trial is, so the lord/lady like Lysa can prevent Tyrion from choosing Jaime due to time constraints.

[SeanF]

maybe the rules are different with important people as rules normally are, but Janos Slynt and the possibility of Ned, Theon and even Tyrion werent for non-capital crimes

Even someone as important as Tyrion was tortured, as Lysa Arryn's captive. Albeit, that may be another example of Lysa's madness.

[danm_999]

Actually, I think it would be pretty chilling if Dany ordered such a thing without being angry.

My point was more she goes from "no torture" to torture based on her anger. Initially she only wants the wineseller questioned sweetly, but she gets angry and wants his daughters questioned sharply.

[SeanF]

My point was more she goes from "no torture" to torture based on her anger. Initially she only wants the wineseller questioned sweetly, but she gets angry and wants his daughters questioned sharply.

And the Shavepate, I think, is someone who would really relish that particular duty.

[sillent]

In fairness, I think her hatred of slavery is quite sincere. A lot of people only come to view something as being wrong once they experience it at first hand, rather than in abstract terms. And, what she discovers in Astapor sickens her.

I agree with you to some extent, however back in AGOT when she frees MMD and a couple of others from getting raped, she did witness the brutality of everything, and well she would've known how the dothraki would've treated slaves especially when they were lamb men slaves..

I guess it's back to the whole ignorance is bliss thing, which she pulls in Meereen I guess when she doesn't witness the daughter getting tortured firsthand.

I meant more that for commoners, yeah. No-one's going to let a "guilty" peasant sit around and be fed while they wait for the watch, or spare the resources to send someone with them.

True enough, I guess we don't have enough information on this to know whether or not the common prisoner has the right to taking the black or not. One interesting thing to note, since the North is closest to the wall, they would have an easier time sending men to the wall as a punishment, I wonder if this is reflected in % northmen at the wall compared to other kingdoms.

Yeah, I believe that is the accused's right, but I think the lord has the discretion of of choosing when the trial is, so the lord/lady like Lysa can prevent Tyrion from choosing Jaime due to time constraints.

Agreed. But atleast if the accused has this information he can make his choice of trial by combat after weighing in all the options.

Even someone as important as Tyrion was tortured, as Lysa Arryn's captive. Albeit, that may be another example of Lysa's madness.

You know, I never quite got why people just dont sleep perpendicular to the slope of the skycell :P (not saying it would no longer be torture since they are starved)