Azor Ahai, the Long Night and the Prince that was Promised

[Black Wolf Smith]

I for one don't think that AA and PTWP are even the prophecy. I think that they have some things that sound the same but aren't.

[FittleLinger]

u should post the Essos version of the tale supplied by Salladhor Saan in ASoS. I'm too lazy to do it right now (about to leave wk) but it suggests that Azor Ahai was a fire priest, who toiled away in the depths of the fire temple to create the blade. Remember AA reborn is an Essosi legend and may or may not correlate to the Westerosi figures: The Last Hero; or the Prince that was Promised.

In fact when Mel says that stannis is AA to maester Aemon, he says "but where is the prince that was promised?" IIRC.

Really? Where is that? Book/chapter?

[Ser Endrew Tarth]

Really? Where is that? Book/chapter?

CoK, pg. 154 sry not ASoS, it's the Azor Ahai legend as told by Salladhor Saan. Pay attention to the wording in the first part (says he worked in the ancient fires bowels of the temple IIRC sounds like fire temple). He is, perhaps, an unreliable narrator, but the only AA/lightbringer story we have is in this passage. My post was probably incorrect, I thought TPTWP was a westerosi prophecy at the time. The wiki says this:

"According to prophesy, in ancient books of Asshai from over five thousand years ago, Azor Ahai is to be reborn again as The Prince that was Promised to challenge the Others"

"There will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him."

So apparently TPTWP and AA reborn are one in the same according to these prophets of Ashai, and a woods witch confirms TPTWP will come from Aerys and Rhaella's line. Now whether any of these prophets are correct, or the legend is even true, is up for debate I guess. Marwyn has the right of it;

"A prophecy is like a treacherous woman. She takes your member in her mouth, and you moan with the pleasure of it and think, how sweet, how fine, how good this is . . . and then her teeth snap shut and your moans turn to screams. That is the nature of prophecy, said Gorghan. Prophecy will bite your prick off every time.”

Archmaester Marwyn^[1]

[Capon Breath]

I'm being really lazy here. I had a big topic planned about trying to isolate candidates for AA reborn and started writing it ages ago then ran out of steam, part of the topic was to raise some questions about some elements of the prophecy so i'm going to post them here as it seems relevant all be it its a botch job of a half completed post so forgive the laziness but possibly some interesting things to debate anytway?

Source of the prophecy

We don’t actually hear much about the prophecy’s in the books

Melisandre mentions it first in ACOK (Notably Mel is Fromm Asshai and the prophecy is identified as being written “In ancient books of Asshai” )

Sallador Saan, When Talking to Davos adds more information about Lightbringer but not specifically about the Azor Ahai Prophecy. Sallador is Lyseni but as a pirate is also very well travelled.

The only other people to mention AA in anyway are:

Stannis & Alester Florent – who both are both seemingly only repeating information told them by Melisandre

Maester Aemon when talking to Melisandre in ASOS Sam V acknowledges Mels description of of “The war for the Dawn” and asks “But where is the Prince that was promised” Interestingly he does not directly acknowledge or make any reference to AA.

No one else in Westeros including the learned Maesters of the Citadel or the scholars of the Seven ever Mention either AA or TPTWP

Conclusions:

1. AA & AA reborn is an Essos legend / prophecy with no real awareness of it in Westeros

Observations

2. Its unclear is Aemon Targaryen knows of the War for Dawn & PTWP Legends because he is a Maester or because he is a Targaryen and it’s a family legend.

3. Its Possible that AA reborn & PTWP legends / prophecies are the same or related but there is not enough evidence to conclude either way.

What the Books tell us about the Azor Ahai Prophecy & questions it raises

We get 2 explicit references to the AA reborn prophecy; Both from Melisandre who appears to be the strongest believer in the AA reborn prophecy we meet in the books. First in ACOK Davos I

"In ancient books of Asshai it is written that there will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him."

Then later in ASOS Davos III

"When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt."

I think these quotes raise some interesting questions:

Do you have to be born or reborn to be AA reborn?

I’ve seen a lot of AA threads theorising that character X or Y is an AA Candidate because they are born or re-born amidst smoke & salt. I’m not convinced either prophecy statement makes it certain. The only thing to be confirmed is that AA is re-born – not that the person they are born into need to go through any Birth or re-birth.

Stars bleed vs Red star bleed

Are the star bleeding statements talking about the same event? 1 talks about a Single red star bleeding and is link to AA being Re-born, the other seems to talk about multiple or possible “all” the stars bleeding and being linked to when AA Clasps lightbringer.

Draw the sword vs clasps the sword

Is the warrior who draws the burning sword AA Reborn? Its unclear from the prophecies with the only thing for certain being that “he who clasps the sword” is AA come again leaving the door open for the warrior who draws the sword and he who clasps the sword being 2 different people.

Under what conditions is AA reborn / come again?

The evidence tells us

AA is reborn “Admist Smoke & Salt & When the red star bleeds”

I beleive a condidate needs to fulfill all parts of the prophecy to be considered AA reborn

[Ser Endrew Tarth]

Good info in that post Capon Breath thanks. I will add the Salladhor Saan tale if I can remember to bring my book in after lunch. This thread has been done again and again with no clear winner, only some candidates more likely than others. GRRM is purposefully ambiguous here. I hope TWoW finally reveals the truth of AA reborn.

[Black Wolf Smith]

So apparently TPTWP and AA reborn are one in the same according to these prophets of Ashai, and a woods witch confirms TPTWP will come from Aerys and Rhaella's line. Now whether any of these prophets are correct, or the legend is even true, is up for debate I guess. Marwyn has the right of it;

"A prophecy is like a treacherous woman. She takes your member in her mouth, and you moan with the pleasure of it and think, how sweet, how fine, how good this is . . . and then her teeth snap shut and your moans turn to screams. That is the nature of prophecy, said Gorghan. Prophecy will bite your prick off every time.”

Archmaester Marwyn^[1]

One thing I know, for sure, is that whatever the woods witch/ghost of High Heart told them it wasn't Aerys and Rhaella by name. Thats not the way her dreams work. That part of my reason for one of my crack pot theories.

[Milestone]

"Two kings to wake the dragon. The father first and then the son so both die kings" Queens man. this ties into AA according to Mel and is needed to bring the prophecy to fruition. But who are the kings?

and is it really the key as Mel believes. Dany does not not seem to fit this. Moreover she is only interested in regaining the Iron throne not in fighting the WW.

"The dragon has three heads" may suggest that AA PTWP and the last hero are all different people.

[Ser Endrew Tarth]

"Two kings to wake the dragon. The father first and then the son so both die kings" Queens man. this ties into AA according to Mel and is needed to bring the prophecy to fruition. But who are the kings?

and is it really the key as Mel believes. Dany does not not seem to fit this. Moreover she is only interested in regaining the Iron throne not in fighting the WW.

"The dragon has three heads" may suggest that AA PTWP and the last hero are all different people.

Hmmm, so maybe Bran is the reincarnation of The last hero/Bran the Builder; Dany is Azor Ahai reborn; and Jon is the Prince that was Promised. This kinda has a nice symmetry to it. :dunno:

[MtnLion]

Ser Barristan went on. "I saw your father and your mother wed as well. Forgive me, but there was no fondness there, and the realm paid dearly for that, my queen."

"Why did they wed if they did not love each other?"

"Your grandsire commanded it. A woods witch had told him that the prince that was promised would be born of their line."

"A woods witch?" Dany was astonished.

"She came to court with Jenny of Oldstones. A stunted thing, grotesque to look upon. A dwarf, most people said, though dear to Lady Jenny, who always claimed that she was one of the children of the forest."

It may be the children of the forest know the PtwP prophesy as well. From their perspective I'm sure they would be gender specific, unlike Maester Aemon who is grasping at straws, searching for the PtwP from the line. Maester Aemon had very little of his family left, after Viserys' death. He only knew of Daenerys from Aerys' and Rhaella's line, not being privy to Rhaegar's elopement with Lyanna.

[Cliche Guevara]

GRRM recently all but confirmed the prince who was promised is the same person as AA reborn:

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Religions_of_Game_of_Thrones/

[The Dragon has three heads]

Hmmm...

[Black Wolf Smith]

GRRM recently all but confirmed the prince who was promised is the same person as AA reborn:

http://www.westeros....ame_of_Thrones/

Not quite, watch that again.

1 he is talking about Mel, and telling how she see things. Not as GRRM telling us something. (GRRM has never said that Stannis is the PTWP/AA, Mel thinks that)

2. and it been highly edited, where you don't know where he said things.(they show GRRM talking, show a clip, GRRM talks thru the clip, then David B, finishes the clip.)

3. Its about GoT and not aSoIaF. which is not the same thing. (Davos is in that clip, but wasn't there in the book, he is told about it afterwards)

[Black Crow]

Melisandre equates the two in that meeting with Maester Aemon on the Wall. Aemon afterwards expresses his doubts that Stannis is the one, because he felt no heat from the burning sword and therefore suspects its a fake, but at no point then or afterwards does he deny that the Prince and Azor Ahai are one and the same, and instead gets very keen to get to Danaerys (Targaryen) when he learns of the dragons, because they'd got it wrong when looking for the Prince as a man.

ETA: spelling

[MtnLion]

Melisandre equates the two in that meeting with Maester Aemon on the Wall. Aemon afterwards expresses his doubts that Stannis is the one, because he felt no heat from the burning sword and therefore suspects its a fake, but at no point then or afterwards does he deny that the Prince and Azor Ahai are one and the same, and instead gets very keen to get to Danaerys (Targaryen) when he learns of the dragons, because they'd got it wrong when looking for the Prince as a man.

ETA: spelling

There is a motive for Aemon to leap to the conclusion that "they got the translation wrong", aside from the dragons. He knows:

• Aerys and Rhaella are the line for tPtwP
  
• Daenerys is the only relative of Aerys and Rhaella that Aemon knows of alive
  

Aerys and Rhaella are probably the line, but we know about Jon, and Aemon does not. We do not need to make the same false assumptions that Aemon made.

[Black Crow]

I remain unconvinced that Jon is AA and think that he is going to end up on the other side. My point is that Aemon, like Melisandre, believes that the Prince and Azor Ahai are one and the same.

[Sam Targaryen]

I think that when deciding who AA is you need to think about the possible locations of 'Lightbringer'. I think that it is very likely that LB is in Valaria 1. Because no body has been there to find it and 2. Because it is amongst fire etc. In my opinion, unless other characters can get dragons Dany is the only character who has the opportunity to go to Valaria.

[FittleLinger]

I think that when deciding who AA is you need to think about the possible locations of 'Lightbringer'. I think that it is very likely that LB is in Valaria 1. Because no body has been there to find it and 2. Because it is amongst fire etc. In my opinion, unless other characters can get dragons Dany is the only character who has the opportunity to go to Valaria.

Lightbringer could be: a sword we have already seen, a sword we have not already seen but in Westeros/Essos, Dawn, and most likely - not even an actual sword. Assuming that a) Lightbringer is an actual sword, b ) it's in Valyria, and c) only Dany could go to Valyria makes absolutely no sense whatsoever, sorry.

[Ser Endrew Tarth]

Lightbringer could be: a sword we have already seen, a sword we have not already seen but in Westeros/Essos, Dawn, and most likely - not even an actual sword. Assuming that a) Lightbringer is an actual sword, b ) it's in Valyria, and c) only Dany could go to Valyria makes absolutely no sense whatsoever, sorry.

Maybe he's saying that with dragons she would be able to bypass some of the dangers by flying in (ie smoking sea/demons/fire wyrms). Though that doesn't sound like something GRRM would do, her flying in, getting the sword, and flying out unscathed...

If you touch a dragon is it ever described as hot to the touch. Just thinking if Maester Aemon is concerned about heat radiating from the real lightbringer may be a clue as to whether or not LB is symbolically dragons.

[hotweaselsoup]

It may be the children of the forest know the PtwP prophesy as well. From their perspective I'm sure they would be gender specific, unlike Maester Aemon who is grasping at straws, searching for the PtwP from the line. Maester Aemon had very little of his family left, after Viserys' death. He only knew of Daenerys from Aerys' and Rhaella's line, not being privy to Rhaegar's elopement with Lyanna.

The Ghost of High Heart is so intriguing, with her red eyes and her green dreams. We learn that Leaf went out and wandered the world for two hundred years, in preparation for the arrival of "the one". Could there have been more than one Leaf sent out? And was the Ghost of High Heart one of these scattered "leaves"? If so, I wonder if she went rogue, interpreting the riddles of her green dreams to mean that "the one" would come from the Targaryen line. Was there an entangling here of the Targaryen PTWP prophecy, and the (assumed) CotF prophecy that seemed to be awaiting Bran? Also, can we draw any parallels between the Ghost of High Heart's possibly faulty interpretation of her visions, which led to the eventual tragedy at Summerhall, and Melisandre's story?

[Alarum]

"promise me, Ned"

I think this is a really neat post. I don't know if it was intentional or not but after being reminded of Lyanna's words I noted that Jon is literally the (lowercase) prince that was promised. Ned promised to raise her & their prince. I would like to believe the prophecies refer to multiple, distinct players since there is such a reliance on threes throughout the various dynamics within the story and a general reluctance to invidiously enfranchise a single person as the world's savior.