From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa XIII

[Milady of York]

That motif in Psyche is unusual in folktales, wildlife turns out to be unrealistically enthusiastic to pay back kindnesses towards the heroine :),

Not so unusual, Lummel, not so unusual, as you'll see when I finish the bit about Psyche's tasks I'm still writing, the ant (and other insects) appears in at least another Greco-Roman legend.

[brashcandy]

New thread will be started in a few minutes :)

[Beets]

Myranda? There is no evidence that she wants power as far as I can see. She comments that she needs a husband and confesses to have had lovers, that is all. Of being power hungry there is no indicator.

IIRC, she says something along the lines of "What better husband than our own Lord Protector?" She wants to be powerful.

[ArabellaVidal]

My thoughts on Joan's marriage in relation to Sansa--well, symbolically --I believe Sandor was the first one to give Sansa his cloak (perhaps that relates to Joan's first marriage--the "secret" one). Tyrion could be viewed as the second marriage, which later became annulled (though we don't know if that will happen in Sansa's case).

I've been thinking this for some time and the conviction has been growing as I'm reading other people's opinions of Sansa's storyline that just as Sansa's mind expands upon a moment when she thought that Sandor might be about to kiss her into a conviction that the kiss did in fact happen, she might later embellish this memory further. As has been discussed, she might feel herself to be married to Sandor because of the cloak he covers her with and his KG cloak that she chooses to cover herself with. I think, given that her sexual knowledge is growing constantly, she might feel that the consummation of their 'marriage' actually also happened. (She remembers him looming over her in bed just after she thinks of Tyrion doing the same) If she can convince others of this, it would have serious implications on her future storyline. Apologies if this is something that has already been discussed.

Been very busy the past few days and have only just reached page 18 of this thread. May I say posters, this thread rocks. And Tze, you are a legend.

Onwards to page 19!

[ArabellaVidal]

I think we are meant to compare Gregor and Sandor. We looked at bit at how they are presented in the Tyrion reread thread, where Gregor figures as one of Tywin's battle commanders. On the surface, they are quite similar, but it seems what's underneath the plain armour is not the same, when it comes to some crucial details.

A useful comparison may be Joffrey and Tommen here. We know that on the surface, Joffrey and Tommen are fairly alike (both golden haired princes, although Tommen is a bit plumper, but that could very well disappear with age), but as people they are vastly different. Joffrey is a sociopath while Tommen seems like a normal boy. Joffrey shoots animals with a crossbow while Tommen keeps kittens and seems to like animals.

What we know if Gregor is that even the dogs are afraid to enter the keep, which means Gregor is no friend of animals, but from what we see of Sandor, he is. He prefers dogs to people, and he even names his horse in an odd display of sentimentality. We also know that Sandor is pretty good at "managing" Joffrey, probably because he's used to growing up with a sociopath and know how they act and react. Sandor warns Tyrion at some point, but Tyrion dismisses it as Sandor just being an arse to him, while in hindsight, Sandor was completely right. Joffrey will remember that slight.

It also seems that to protect himself, Sandor has turned himself into "the most violent of men" (Sorry for the Bakker reference :P but I felt it was appropriate as Cnaiur is another character who is driven by his hate and his strange and twisted love for Moenghus) and claims that strong arms rule the world, even if he himself contradicts that by his actions on more than one occasion. Gregor, however, never contradicts it. Gregor IS a monster, while Sandor assumes the role of one for the sake of his own protection. Although as we see, it does not work completely. He spends all his time angry at the world and at his brother who wronged him and it certainly doesn't bring him any happiness. While it may work in the short term to armour yourself in rage and hate, in the longterm is just makes you burn out into nothingness. Which is I think what we see with Sandor in ASOS.

Personally, I'd like the brothers to settle things so we can see them together, realize how similar and yet how different they are, and see where each way of life has led them. Since both brothers are presumed dead in-universe, their returns would both be a return from death, but the manner in which they've returned is drastically different. Sandor would have started a new life (in a religious context, according to most of the fandom), where as Gregor... zombiehood is not technically life, bu in a way, he's been reborn as well. This clash between two different ways of life and two different forms of rebirth would, imo, be very interesting. The way they handle the time before the battle would also be telling, and if Sandor attempts some sort of peace, we'll know his character development has been as lasting as we thought it was.

In keeping with both these posts, it would be interesting to explore the nature of the 'wombs' they were re-born in. Sandor is re-born first in the hollow hill beneath a weirwood and a trial by fire. His second re-birth is again (as Tze here has recently pointed out) in the hollow hill of the old gods where the QI is located. [in the presence of the Rh'llor and the old and new gods]

Gregor has been reborn (his body has been reanimated) by the dark arts of the anti-EB, Qyburn, in the 'caverns' beneath the Red Keep, the Black Cells. I think this is more than a hint towards how their characters are perceived by their author.

[Angalin]

Closing for length.