From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa XIII

[Milady of York]

Interesting post, Caro.

Apart from analysing the role Lothor Brune plays in Sansa’s arc, you’ve also highlighted some events that bring to our attention the things these two men have in common.

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Low birth, although Sandor’s status is higher than Lothor’s.

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Left their home after their fathers died.

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Terrible fashion sense.

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None of them is comely, although Lothor is said to be not ugly, just common. Like Sandor would have been if not for his burns.

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Both are silent, brooding types.

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They both open up to Sansa and tell her facts about themselves no one else knows.

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Both rose in status due to their own merits as fighters, though one of them is better at it.

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They saved Sansa from probable rape, one at the KL Riot, the other at the Fingers.

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Both have rough voices, which led Sansa to mix them both in her head.

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They drink heavily (In Lothor’s case, it’s implied by the “Sober, he was a quiet man” sentence).

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Both are loyal.

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Very strong men, physically speaking.

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They are much older than both Stones, Mya and Alayne.

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… and they soften in their presence. One controls his hands to touch her gently and the other smiles, something he doesn’t do usually.

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Both are guards to men of questionable morality: Joffrey and Littlefinger.

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They have life-changing experiences at the same time: the night of the Battle of Blackwater.

- Their names rhyme ;).

Yet it isn’t until a bit later that Sansa actually thinks Lothor is Sandor- just when Marillion wants to rape her on the night of Petyr and Lysa’s wedding.

This scene makes you think a lot if you read the sequence of Sansa’s thoughts in each stage:

[bedding] – The Hound – Sandor Clegane – The old hound – [Rape attempt]– [The old dog tries to help and is kicked] – Lothor – The Hound – [Dream].

Notice how her thoughts begin and end with The Hound? And she goes directly from Lothor to Clegane and back to Lothor, which marks the moment she’s probably begun to see him in the role the other left vacant.

To conclude I will like to make reference to the “Men come and go. They lie, or die, or leave you,” bit cause here we could almost say that Mya seems a little resentful towards Michael, and Sansa also thinks that Sandor took a song and a kiss and left her nothing but a bloody cloak.

Curious detail: both young ladies seem to resent the “he left me” part more than what the men did to them. Mya seems to be saying that the Redfort boy lied to her, took her maidenhead and then he left her; if we put it that way, then it really mirrors Sansa’s thoughts.

[Lyanna Stark]

This scene makes you think a lot if you read the sequence of Sansa’s thoughts in each stage:

[bedding] – The Hound – Sandor Clegane – The old hound – [Rape attempt]– [The old dog tries to help and is kicked] – Lothor – The Hound – [Dream].

Notice how her thoughts begin and end with The Hound? And she goes directly from Lothor to Clegane and back to Lothor, which marks the moment she’s probably begun to see him in the role the other left vacant.

Very well put.

I completely agree as well, condensed it's far clearer. A lot of Sansa's scenes are like that, it seems. You almost need to strip away everything "non-sensical" and start digging to really get to the bottom of it. It's also interesting how the Bedding and Lysa's screaming melds into Sansa thinking about the Hound.

Curious detail: both young ladies seem to resent the “he left me” part more than what the men did to them. Mya seems to be saying that the Redfort boy lied to her, took her maidenhead and then he left her; if we put it that way, then it really mirrors Sansa’s thoughts.

Agreed, and I think it points to Mya and Sansa being similar in that regard. That Mya is no delicate flower is obvious, but I think Sansa's similar reaction indicates that she isn't either.

[Beets]

Ah yes, I do remember that, and it's a good point.

Further, I wonder if the good Ser Bonifer and his actions wrt Rhaella and replacing her with the Maiden doesn't also tie into the courtly love idea. Ser Bonifer seems to feel he has failed in his knightly "quest" (if we're looking at the courtly love manual posted earlier in this thread) and as an act of repentance and defeat, he vows to only serve the Maiden and take no wife. All because he couldn't have Rhaella of course, but I also get a feeling it's because he failed her.

And the poor old sod ends up with a dry pear.

Regarding upsetting me further, as long as it includes no illicit pear eating, I'm sure it will be fine. :P

...I actually rather enjoyed the pear-eating.

:leaving:

LF is a creeper notwithstanding, though.

If fruits are tied to... activities, then what does that make the Fossoways? And the Tyrells, what does that signal for them? Will Margaery bloom into a smarter version of Cersei, using her... skills to manipulate everybody?

Activites... skills... the euphemisms are unlimited! :leer:

Edit: Just a tidbit, really, but

-

Low birth, although Sandor’s status is higher than Lothor’s.

Just as Alayne's is higher than Mya's. Alayne is a confidant and assistant to her father, whereas Mya is unacknowledged and a mule girl. When working with the Alayne side of Alayne/Sansa's personality, we realize that the two situations mirror each other quite closely. Are we getting closer to two instances of the same ending?

[lilenadheas]

This is tangental so I beg pardon in advance...

1

, but warning - this is not suitable for vegetarians, vegans etc and the pears only appear in the last minute

2 Never trust a man who eats with a knife and fork.

Thank you for providing the funniest thing I've seen all week. The music at the end was priceless! it turned into a Benny Hill theme

[bgona]

Caro your analysis has made me think and I love that!

First of all: I feel relevant that the armor was drab. I associate the grey armor not only as plain or with not a lot of money but also with their character. The ones that carry that kind of armor are good field warriors: as the Northerns and Sandor.

But also I associate that color with the ones that Sansa can trust.

Second: It is interesting that you got the conclusion that LF hired him after watching him at the Hand Tourney. I always have thought that he was already at LF service before the Hand Tourney. This kind of tourney are expensive. He could have the money to play at it, but I believe that he was already supporting him. That LF found him loyal means that Lothor had realize some services him. It reminds me to the hidden knives (the Kettleblack are not the only knives that he had).

Lothor Brune participating at Joffrey Tourney is as demostration that LF needed him to do it. LF knew what Sansa had done cause Lothor was Dontos opponent.

And Lothor being rewarded after BBB, I´m sure that was a LF plot. LF was getting Harrenhal and he was planning to marry Lysa. He needed Lothor as a knight, cause he needed someone that was loyal to him in a position to stand against Lysa knights. And how LF knows that Lothor is loyal: due to the fact that he had already work for him.

Third: Sansa is mirroring her Sandor feelings with Lothor/Mya situations. She is analysing Lothor feelings, but she doesn´t analyse Mya feelings. Now Sansa is portraying as a bastard daughter (as Mya truly is). It is as if Sansa wants to stay as a bastard. It is as if she wants that Lothor and Mya end together as a way of getting her dreams come true (the one of being marry to Sandor, as lower as Lothor and Sansa being a bastard as Mya).

Edit due to grammatical faults (sure they are more).

[Caro99]

Milady, aww yes more comparisons between Sandor/Lothor!! :D

And I agree with Lyanna that both girls are no delicate flowers. It will be intresting to see if they befriend each other and how they could help the realm, regarding feeding it and such.

Bgona, I assumed that Lothor at the time of the tourney was not working for LF yet cause the herald did not say so. And because I remembered that Dornish archer from the BWoB who happened to win the archery contest in the tourney, and how before the tourney he hadn’t made a name for himself. The tourney was a great opportunity for many men to try and rise higher in the world, including Lothor, no matter that they weren’t quite young.

It’ll be interesting how LF handles the new hedge knights who have entered his service. I am sure at least the one with the red mouse in his shield will be relevant to the future storyline. Intresting thoughts on Sansa/Mya-Lothor/Sandor though! I really can’t wait to see what Sansa and Mya get up to if they become friends. I think though that if Sansa hasn’t considered Mya’s thoughts regarding Lothor it is cause she hasn’t had much time to get to know Mya. She was isolated up in the Eyrie for weeks and weeks with Lothor though, and so she can examined with more detail and care what he feels than speculate what Mya feels when she doesn’t know her that well. That’s why I want Sansa to have a girlfriend once again, so she can share and compare experiences and both learn from each other :)

[brashcandy]

Ok, I'm back from my trip and can finally concentrate on the thread again! :) Caro, that was a great analysis on Lothor Brune, and I just wanted to highlight two things:

the freerider Lothor Brune, who'd cut his way through half a hundred Fossoway men-at-arms to capture Ser Jon of the green apple and kill Ser Bryan and Ser Edwyd of the red, thereby winning himself the name Lothor Apple-Eater;

We've had some discussion on Sansa and the significance of the fruit imagery she's associated with throughout the novels, particularly with the pomegranates. During the conversation with Randa Royce going down the Mountain, Randa tells Sansa:

"You do turn such a pretty shade of pink. When I blush I look quite like an apple. I have not blushed for years, though."

If we connect this to the Snow White allusions in Sansa's arc which tze has talked about in the past, might Lothor - the apple eater - end up protecting Sansa from Randa - the wicked stepmother, and by extension, the wicked father figure in Littlefinger? Interestingly, during this same conversation, when the topic of Marillion comes up, Randa reveals that she slept with the singer, but insists:

I did not know he was a monster. He sang beautifully, and could do the sweetest things with his fingers. I would never have taken him to bed if I had known he was going to push Lady Lysa through the Moon Door. I do not bed monsters, as a rule."

Now we know who the real culprit is in this crime, so the label of monster is for Littlefinger, not Marillion as Randa imagines. And given her interest in the former, perhaps she is in the habit of bedding monsters after all.

[Elba the Intoner]

Caro, great post on Lothor. I really like how you brought out his development from a lowly freerider to being knighted. Like Bgona, I too had just assumed Lothor had always been in LF's service but you're right that they never mention him being in Petyr's service at the first tourney. And given the similarities between Lothor and Sandor, I do think that Sansa as Alayne is projecting her feelings for Sandor onto the idea of Mya and Lothor. I also agree with the comments that Lothor and Mya would make great caretakers of LF's home on the fingers. As for how things may play out, there seems to be some strong hints that LF is failing to consider how some of the lowborn people around him could be important and he totally disregards them. He tells Sansa to be aware of Myranda but does not mention Mya at all. It would be so awesomely ironic if somehow those lowborn little people beneath his notice have some hand in his downfall, just as he has used his lowborn status to his advantage to play behind the scenes and cause the downfall of the highborn people who failed to consider his importance because of his status. That would also fit in with Psyche's first task where the ants (the little people) help her, and the parallels to Snow White and Cinderella getting help from the little animals around them.

Lummel, I haven't clicked on your goodreads link but I am guessing that one of the books on your list is Tom Jones? :thumbsup:

[Lyanna Stark]

If we connect this to the Snow White allusions in Sansa's arc which tze has talked about in the past, might Lothor - the apple eater - end up protecting Sansa from Randa - the wicked stepmother, and by extension, the wicked father figure in Littlefinger? Interestingly, during this same conversation, when the topic of Marillion comes up, Randa reveals that she slept with the singer, but insists:

I wonder though if Randa will be against Sansa here should she learn about Littlefinger being a monster. She states herself she does not bed down with monsters, so who knows? Can Sansa sway here.

Now we know who the real culprit is in this crime, so the label of monster is for Littlefinger, not Marillion as Randa imagines. And given her interest in the former, perhaps she is in the habit of bedding monsters after all.

This is true, will it be a theme for Randa?

Regarding Littlefinger and Randa, she may pursue him, but I doubt that he will want Randa. Both because he has other goals but also because LF reminded me of something Mr Bennett said:

But he may prefer a stupid wife, as others have done before him.

I think this describes Littlefinger to a T. He wants someone he can manipulate, and Randa isn't that easy to manipulate. She may pursue him, but I think she is going to be disappointed.

[Lummel]

Thank you for providing the funniest thing I've seen all week. The music at the end was priceless! it turned into a Benny Hill theme

you're welcome :)

...It would be so awesomely ironic if somehow those lowborn little people beneath his notice have some hand in his downfall, just as he has used his lowborn status to his advantage to play behind the scenes and cause the downfall of the highborn people who failed to consider his importance because of his status. That would also fit in with Psyche's first task where the ants (the little people) help her, and the parallels to Snow White and Cinderella getting help from the little animals around them.

Lummel, I haven't clicked on your goodreads link but I am guessing that one of the books on your list is Tom Jones? :thumbsup:

Gulliver's travels? You know the small folk tieing down the giant - and Petyr is also associated with the titian of braavos. That motif in Psyche is unusual in folktales, wildlife turns out to be unrealistically enthusiastic to pay back kindnesses towards the heroine :), although more practically and tieing into this thread Sansa has an idea of what makes the the people around her tick, what they want and what motivates them because she deals with them while Littlefinger as has been pointed out is regularly contemptuous of the pawns that he can buy and manipulate, that may give Sansa an advantage that she will use to her benefit.

Not sure about Tom Jones since I only read it once, some years ago and have a poor sense of what happened (and no longer have a copy), but that feast scene from the 1960s film version has stuck in my memory.

[brashcandy]

I wonder though if Randa will be against Sansa here should she learn about Littlefinger being a monster. She states herself she does not bed down with monsters, so who knows? Can Sansa sway here.

It's interesting to think about. We were meant to recognize the irony in Randa's words certainly, but I did get a sense of "the lady doth protest too much" from her comments, and I'm not sure she would stop pursuing LF even if she knew he was responsible for Lysa's death.

I think this describes Littlefinger to a T. He wants someone he can manipulate, and Randa isn't that easy to manipulate. She may pursue him, but I think she is going to be disappointed.

Agreed, not to mention he's preoccupied with his own twisted seduction of Sansa; but Randa's interest in him could cause some disruption in his plans and give Sansa some breathing room and space to enact her own moves.

[Caro99]

Ok, I'm back from my trip and can finally concentrate on the thread again! :) Caro, that was a great analysis on Lothor Brune, and I just wanted to highlight two things:

We've had some discussion on Sansa and the significance of the fruit imagery she's associated with throughout the novels, particularly with the pomegranates. During the conversation with Randa Royce going down the Mountain, Randa tells Sansa:

If we connect this to the Snow White allusions in Sansa's arc which tze has talked about in the past, might Lothor - the apple eater - end up protecting Sansa from Randa - the wicked stepmother, and by extension, the wicked father figure in Littlefinger? Interestingly, during this same conversation, when the topic of Marillion comes up, Randa reveals that she slept with the singer, but insists:

Now we know who the real culprit is in this crime, so the label of monster is for Littlefinger, not Marillion as Randa imagines. And given her interest in the former, perhaps she is in the habit of bedding monsters after all.

Hey there Brash, i hope you had a great trip and i am really happy you liked the analysis! :)

Oh i think this bit with Randa can be an important revelation! since we don't know if she will be a friend or a false friend to sansa. it would be an intresting stage to have Randa side with LF only to have Lothor and maybe even Mya support Sansa/Alayne. And i like the bit of Lothor saving Sansa with the Snow White coparison cause so far neither brienne, jaime, the balckfish, sandor are around, but lothor is, so...

Elba, I am also very pleased that you liked what i came up with regarding Lothor. And yes, Mya and Lothor helping in bringing on the destruction of LF due in part to his flaw to overlook common folk would be a nice twist!!

Oh and I jsut wanted to say that i really like Guilliver's travels and tom jones (both the book and the 60's version!!) it seems like the sort of reading that would entretain randa and mya in those nights at the gates of the moon :D

[bgona]

I don´t why but I am also suspicous to Myranda.

I don´t believe her a true friend. I can be wrong and be manipulated by LF.

[Devaki Khanna]

Can I join you in your dog and horse-related discussion, Queen of Winter and Kitten, s'il vous plait?

- Besides Kerberos, there are two more famous doggies in Greek mythology: Argos, Odysseus’ pet and Lailaps, the guardian of

baby Zeus.

a.

When Odysseus finally arrived in his home –Ithaca– after two decades of absence, he’s so changed that only a living soul can recognise him: Argos, his old dog, who had been a puppy when he had left for Troy, and he was the one who revealed his identity to a faithful servant. A dog can always recognise those he loves, no matter what disguise or name they use.

b.

Lailaps, on the other part, was a hound (Greek historian Pausanias and Roman poet Ovid call him The Hound or just A Hound, never naming him, but everyone understood who they were talking about), one that never failed to catch whatever prey was in sight, and in one version was originally owned by Artemis, who gave him to a mortal she favoured. In another version, Lailaps is the Golden Hound (simply referred to as Dog or Golden Dog) created by Rhea for the sole purpose of assigning him the tricky job of guarding the newborn future king of the gods who, as you know well, wasn’t exactly a dear creature to papa Kronos. He kept the baby safe in the cave where his mother hid him, and when he was an adult, Zeus gave it as a gift to one of his lovers –Europa– and thenceforward was handled down to her descendants until he was raised to heaven as a star: Canis Major. As you can see, the Greek also had a Heaven Hound, not only a Hell Hound.

- From Aléxandros to Sándor = Our Hound has more in common with King Alexander of Macedonia than just their names: their

horses and their love of dogs, not to mention their tempers and their ability for war.

a.

Like Sandor Clegane, Alexander the Great was very, very fond of dogs –he had a beloved pet, a hound called Peritas, whom he took with him on his campaign for the conquest of the Persian Empire. There are some fanciful records of Peritas’ deeds in battle that make him look like a canine version of Grey Wind, and some even say he saved Alexander’s life in battle; those are to be taken with a big grain of salt, however, it’s clear that dear Peritas was useful, loyal and doggedly watchful of his master. He wasn’t afraid of anything, he could even fight lions –Alexander was fond of hunting lions and boars– and for that reason, when he died during the Indian campaign, Alexander named a newly founded city after him, which would become a prosperous one later.

b.

Here’s the most interesting parallelism: Stranger is practically a copy of Alexander’s warhorse Bucephalus in all but name. Like Stranger, Bucephalus was an enormous black stallion, pretty mean and hot-tempered, a nightmare for the poor stable-boys and the Royal Pages. He cost King Philip, Alexander’s daddy, a sheer amount of gold that no one had ever paid before for a horse, thoroughbred or not, but none of his men could master him, and the king was berating them all when boy Alexander offered to master the horse on condition that he be given to him afterwards if he did. He did find a way to mount him, and thenceforward this horse would never be mounted by another but Alexander himself, and according to historian Arrian of Nicomedia –the most accurate of his biographers– if others dared to approach him or try to mount him, Bucephalus would make sure they learnt their lesson the hard way (read: threw them off from his back or kicked and bit them). Alexander used him in important battles, and was so fond of him that once when his horse was stolen from him, he issued a proclamation that the thieves should bring his horse back safe and sound as soon as they could or else he would burn the villages and put the inhabitants to the sword. The harsh threat worked just fine, Bucephalus was handed back to him in less than you can pronounce its name, and served the king until his death of old age (some historians say he was wounded in battle, but I doubt that version) in India less than a year before his dog’s death. In his memory, Alexander founded the city of Bucephala. Like master, like pet: two hot-tempered horses for two hot-tempered warriors.

On a side note, I wouldn’t interpret the leg wound as impotence in this case :D Alexander too had a leg wound, many leg wounds in fact, he even broke his leg once –he sustained so many wounds in battle that I wonder how in the name of Zeus he didn’t die at least thrice– but he recovered and kept fighting for the rest of his life. The most serious wound was to the lung when he was more or less a pair of years older than Sandor: an arrow to the chest in India punctured a lung, he almost died, and was feverish and bedridden for a long time, but he recovered. There was no major battle for him later, but he was planning new grandiose campaigns when he died, so it shows that he thought he was still in good shape to fight side by side with his soldiers in the vanguard as he used to.

Another similarity between Alexandros and Sandor--both loved to drink. In fact, there is an incident when Alexander the Great ended up killing one of his generals in a drunken rage--they quarelled because Alex had permitted the Egyptians to honour him as a god, thus displaying hubris. His need to unite his far-flung empire meant that he had to follow Persian customs, such as hiring local talent and marrying the daughters of local nobles, as well as honouring local religions. This enraged the Macedonians, who felt their control over him was slipping. At the time he died, his Sogdian wife was expecting a child, as was his Persian wife, the daughter of Darius. However, his generals took over his conquests--many of them followed marriage customs very like those of the Targaryens, to maintain the purity of their bloodline.

Although Sandor loves (loved?) to drink when he was the Hound, his time in the Quiet Isle might have changed him. Unlike his namesake, I don't think Sandor will take kindly to divine honours being bestowed upon him. I wonder how he would deal with people from a culture different from his own--Alexander was educated by Aristotle, the philosopher of his age, whereas Sandor might well have received only a rudimentary education--the Lannisters would only have prized his abilities as a fighter and leader of men, not an administrator.

[Lyanna Stark]

It's interesting to think about. We were meant to recognize the irony in Randa's words certainly, but I did get a sense of "the lady doth protest too much" from her comments, and I'm not sure she would stop pursuing LF even if she knew he was responsible for Lysa's death.

I guess it depends. Personally I would be rather put off by marrying someone who offed his previous wife. What if I'd be next? :P

It's one thing bedding a monster, but another to take him to husband with everything that entails. Myranda seems a lot smarter than her father Nestor Royce and if she somehow learns the LF offed Lysa, she may not be terribly impressed. One of the reasons she seems to have him focused as a good catch is that he was very devoted to Lysa, and who doesn't want a devoted husband?

[bgona]

I guess it depends. Personally I would be rather put off by marrying someone who offed his previous wife. What if I'd be next? :P

It's one thing bedding a monster, but another to take him to husband with everything that entails. Myranda seems a lot smarter than her father Nestor Royce and if she somehow learns the LF offed Lysa, she may not be terribly impressed. One of the reasons she seems to have him focused as a good catch is that he was very devoted to Lysa, and who doesn't want a devoted husband?

Lyanna, I don´t believe that she wants a devoted husband. She did try to marry before HtH. She wants power.

[Lyanna Stark]

Lyanna, I don´t believe that she wants a devoted husband. She did try to marry before HtH. She wants power.

Myranda? There is no evidence that she wants power as far as I can see. She comments that she needs a husband and confesses to have had lovers, that is all. Of being power hungry there is no indicator.

[bgona]

I will read it again, to be able to judge if is only that or a false impression that I got.

[brashcandy]

I guess it depends. Personally I would be rather put off by marrying someone who offed his previous wife. What if I'd be next? :P

It's one thing bedding a monster, but another to take him to husband with everything that entails. Myranda seems a lot smarter than her father Nestor Royce and if she somehow learns the LF offed Lysa, she may not be terribly impressed. One of the reasons she seems to have him focused as a good catch is that he was very devoted to Lysa, and who doesn't want a devoted husband?

Good points :) I still don't know about Randa, although in my personal head canon she and Sansa become friends and she's instrumental in helping her escape Littlefinger or in some other plot. I always got the sense she was a being a bit sarcastic when she spoke of him being devoted to Lysa, but I suppose LF would have endeavored to make sure that impression was well and truly solidified in the Vale.

[Milady of York]

Another similarity between Alexandros and Sandor--both loved to drink. In fact, there is an incident when Alexander the Great ended up killing one of his generals in a drunken rage--they quarelled because Alex had permitted the Egyptians to honour him as a god, thus displaying hubris. His need to unite his far-flung empire meant that he had to follow Persian customs, such as hiring local talent and marrying the daughters of local nobles, as well as honouring local religions. This enraged the Macedonians, who felt their control over him was slipping. At the time he died, his Sogdian wife was expecting a child, as was his Persian wife, the daughter of Darius. However, his generals took over his conquests--many of them followed marriage customs very like those of the Targaryens, to maintain the purity of their bloodline.

Although Sandor loves (loved?) to drink when he was the Hound, his time in the Quiet Isle might have changed him. Unlike his namesake, I don't think Sandor will take kindly to divine honours being bestowed upon him. I wonder how he would deal with people from a culture different from his own--Alexander was educated by Aristotle, the philosopher of his age, whereas Sandor might well have received only a rudimentary education--the Lannisters would only have prized his abilities as a fighter and leader of men, not an administrator.

Alexandros didn't "love to drink" in the sense you're implying (that he was an alcoholic), but he did drink a lot, yes, as the Macedonians customarily did at their komos (revel, banquet). Their reasons for drinking are entirely different, Sandor seems to drink to forget, to quell pain, to quell grief and to sleep without dreaming, he had PTSD, whilst the Macedonian king, according to testimonial evidence from an eyewitness -Aristobulus- drank mostly when feasting with his generals and subjects, not out of it, and he didn't drink so much on all occasions (a thing that was bound to be noticed amongst heavy drinkers as these men were) or he wouldn't resist the maddeningly rapid troop movements and hardships while campaigning, nor could he have come out well from the near fatal wound to the lung he sustained (ask a physician what chances does an alcoholic have in such a scenario). The quarrel where he killed Cleitus the Black wasn't over the Egyptians' bestowing of divine honours upon the king (remember Alexander wasn't just plain King of Egypt by then, he was Pharaoh, a living god by all means according to local tradition. Not all kings of Egypt were crowned Pharaoh as well, it was decided by the priests' council, who could deny that honour to a monarch. Alexander was very respectful of religions and allowed his subjects to worship whatever gods they wanted.) but an accumulation of things and deeds that were seen as affronts by his men: the inclusion of Persian and other Asians in the Macedonian and Greek troops, the Proskynesis, his pardon to the satraps who'd fought against him, his adoption of local customs (he hadn't married yet when Cleitus was murdered, but he had a Persian mistress), disagreements about his father' legacy, etc., etc. A lot of things that could be summed up grosso modo thus: what his men perceived as his "Persianisation," like you've put so well.

And, yes, he was a pupil to Aristotle, but he didn't follow Aristotle's opinions or advice on the treatment of "barbarians," so he doesn't owe his openness of mind regarding other cultures to this philosopher. If you read Aristotle's writings, you'll see why.

And about his wives, we don't know for sure if Stateira -his second wife- was pregnant or not when she was assassinated/died; but we do know his first was and gave birth to a posthumous son (his second son, for he had another with his Persian mistress). The marriage customs weren't started by him or his generals after him but already existed before, Macedonian kings were polygamous and some took close female relatives to wives. One of his closest friends, Ptolemy I Lagus, Pharaoh of Egypt after Alexander's death and ancestor of the famous Cleopatra, was one of those who took to this tradition of inbreeding like a duck to water.

Sandor and divine honours... :D Ah, thank you! I suspect our doggie's reaction to that would be a certain word that begins with "Bu..." and ends with a "r." There's a big difference here: one is a non-believer and the other was very religious (he offered sacrifices daily). Of course, unlike Alexander, who was raised to be a king, had the smartest mentor of the time, the best general of the time as his daddy and disciplined professional troops to command since he was a teenager, a group of devoted friends his age he grew up with, experience as regent for his papa, and could boast divine ancestry on both sides (Achilles on his mother's side and Heracles on his father's) and read a lot (he had the Iliad under his pillow even when campaigning), Sandor had no such privileges and a life much harder, but he's not totally uneducated nor stupid. There are few men who can excel both as mere soldiers and as commanders at the same time, Alexander was both, and I think Sandor is one, too (just examine how well he commanded his men at the Blackwater before deserting). We don't know how he'd turn out as an administrator, we'd have to wait to see how he emerges from the QI to have a clearer view of this, but we've seen him commanding troops, which requires organisation skills and good notions of logistics and quick thinking, so we can safely speculate he'd be a decent one, if not a skilled one. He's, above all, a warrior, though.

Enfin! Long off-topic, Milady couldn't let the opportunity pass when it pertains to Alexander.