From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa XIII

[Pod The Impaler]

I always got the feeling that he was heartbroken when he said this.

As in... "I should have fucked her bloody and ripped her heart out" (the way she ripped out mine by staying behind and being married off to the dwarf)...

And ..."before leaving her for that dwarf" doesn't mean he should have done this in the time preceding leaving her for that dwarf, but rather means that he should have done this instead of leaving her (because it had a higher importance or position). Before, like all prepositions, is subtle. So the meaning I'm going for here is the one we use when we say "put quality before quantity". We're not talking about preceding in time, or being in front of, but having more importance than the other option.

So, it's like you said -- incredibly intimate, yet violent.

I've known people who respond like this when they're heartbroken. They're utterly terrifying, but their response is like that of a cornered, injured animal. They're so broken inside that the only way they can communicate the depth of their hurt is to lash out and completely destroy all the things they value most. They're so upset at having lost the only good they saw in their life that they want to destroy all that's good in everyone else's. When I read the Hound's last words, that's what I hear -- that kind of brokenness. So, I take all his words with a grain of salt, not literally. Instead, all I hear is the pain behind him, the sea of regret he's swimming in as he thinks he's dying. He failed the little bird. He failed to kill his brother. He failed himself.

(Keep in mind, this is no excuse for this level of violence. It's just an explanation for why it's there. Hopefully, his time on the Quiet Isle will start mending these shattered pieces of his soul so that he can approach the rest of his life from a healthier mental place...)

I think the Hound meant rape when he made his confession to Arya.

Remember, he was at the time dying and making confession before the end. Not all his thoughts for Sansa were pure and protective - there was that other side of him, the Hound of House Clegane (plus he was drunk). What he would have done - "fuck her bloody and tear her heart out" - was maybe symbolic within the story, but I don't think that means Sandor was consciously being metaphorical when he said it.

He was holding nothing back, and I think at the time he very much wanted to die for his crimes. He killed Mycah, and he didn't see himself protecting Sansa, but rather as someone who was a coward that had served evil causes, a coward who stood and watched them as they beat her and tormented her, and kept her captive to marry (be raped by) Joffrey and then marry (be raped by) the Imp. To him, this meant she would suffer a fate worse than death. Sandor hated the Imp, for a bunch of different reasons: the Imp is a small and weak man protected by his noble name, the Imp had a wife who was gang-raped then discarded (and I'm sure Sandor was close enough to the Lannisters to know about it; LF did), the Imp used fire to fight battles.

Yes, metaphorically, it may also mean the death of Sansa's innocence, so he thought it better to come at his own hands. But Sandor's mind was a drunken mess of jumbled-up emotions. Why else would he mock and menace Sansa for being a "little bird", almost angry at her sweet and innocence, yet also pretty much helpless in the face of it ? Yes, he could have raped her a.k.a broken her heart and violently slain her innocence, but in a strange way, her innocence had become something sacred to him. There was nothing to stop him from taking her by force (sexually, or removing her form King's Landing).

This is why I think his confession to Arya was indicative of his actual guilt for what he had been (a servant of evil), and yes an admission of what he had been thinking that night. In that moment he hated liars - so would he lie or make euphemisms? No. Some part of him was full of lust and murder, and had wanted to do to her something like what was done by his brother to Elia of Dorne. The point was lost on Arya, who knew little of his history with Sansa, so when he spoke it to her it must have sounded like delirious gibberish.

What I see when I read it is the Hound begging for merciful execution, feeling damned for all his crimes (actual and intended), and also for his lost opportunities (to be a true knight, to protect Sansa and repay her kindness properly, instead of colluding with her captors or drunkenly menacing her). As he dies, all he knows is she married the Imp, may have killed Joffrey, and run off on her own. Good for her, he thinks, but the good of her escape does not wash out the bad (his own life and his treatment of her).

She was scared of the Hound and weary of his anger at her naiveté. But it's like Sandor starts to sympathize with her when Ned is killed and she gets to see beside his half-burned face.

I think it may have been before this. It think it may have begun with Lady & Mycah. The Hound scared her in the camp, and she feels afraid and mocked, so Joffrey "rescues" her and rides off with her alone. Next thing you know, the Mycah incident happens - The Hound kills an unarmed child, and Sansa's wolf is murdered in place of Arya's (indeed, in place of Arya herself). We never find out what the Hound's opinion on that incident was, other than regarding Mycah - but deep down he had to see the injustice of it. Mycah (and Arya) and Lady (and Sansa) suffered for something Joffrey did - something which was very much like what Gregor did to him.

Why did the Hound confess to Arya of all people ? I think it was because Arya is the person he knows that is most like him. She is someone who suffered a great trauma as a child, which society covered up rather than deal with honestly. She too hates society's hypocrisy, speaks roughly and often with brutal honesty, and is driven forward by hatred and a need for vengeance. The Hound knows it too - he sees a parallel of his hatred in her unspoken feelings regarding Sansa.

Arya is his perfect judge and executioner then. The BWB could have no hold on him, it was not their place to judge him. But she could judge him, she could condemn him. She alone had him dead to rights, judging him by his own standards - he was guilty in his own eyes, of becoming like his brother, The Mountain. The Hound had to die, and Arya alone had the right to kill him because her hatred was his own. His confession was more than mere provocation for "mercy" - he was judging himself, finding himself guilty, and sentencing himself to death.

I actually think Sansa changes Sandor very much - but it's not some magical metamorphosis that happens overnight and certainly not where she's able to "save" him on her own.

Sansa has that unusual effect on people. She is part of it, and as you can see, I think Arya is another part of it. Perhaps Brienne will be the third part ?

Regarding voices and singing voices, it also does make you wonder what Sandor's fascination with songs is. Can he sing himself? His voice is described as "raspy" so often and with his burnt face it makes you think of smoke and ashes.

Perhaps his destiny is to be the vocalist in a death metal band. \m/

[wonder1859]

Sansa being a good little bird and saying the right things doesn't change Joffrey or The Hound or any other beast she encounters.

Welcome, Ciella!

I would have to disagree with you on this point. I think Sansa absolutely influenced changes in Sandor, from their first conversation after the Hand's tourney on.

There are some versions of this tale (which are yet to be explored on this thread, but are forthcoming in the planned discussion) in which the Beast is not an angry or abusive person who must be changed by the woman, but rather the Beast in question 'is who he is', and the focus is rather on the heroine who embarks upon an epic quest to rescue him from a curse that is upon him. The focus of these versions is on her journey, which I personally view as empowering. Others may hold different interpretations of course, but that's just imo. :)

And then there is the TV version where the Beast will always be a beast and the story is about the way his presence in Beauty's life changes her, as well as the story of his own struggle to accept and integrate his bestial aspects.

[Milady of York]

First, thank you to all of you ladies -and Ragnorak- for your encouragement and your thoughtful comments!

You can't imagine how much it gladdens my heart that this has sparked the discussion I had wished it would. I will comment on your posts later, there's so much you've said in a a short time!

[Ragnorak]

Hi Everyone!

I'd first like to say that the thoughtful and in-depth posts on this thread have really helped me to re-examine Sansa as a character, so kudos to everyone here! I'm still making my way through the older versions of this thread, that may take a while. If this has been touched on before, sorry about the repeat.

I think Martin is subverting Beauty and the Beast with a lot of Sansa's story. There's a lot of dislike of the B&B story in the feminist community because of the idea that a woman can "change" her beast of a man (be he abuser, rapist, or all around bad guy) if she loves and sticks by him, when in reality that's rarely, if ever, true. And we see this happen throughout ASOIAF. Sansa being a good little bird and saying the right things doesn't change Joffrey or The Hound or any other beast she encounters. She even starts to believe some of the abuse hurled at her (that she's stupid and good for nothing) which shows her changing instead. I think this is all in the vein of what GRRM is trying to show us with Sansa, that fairy tales aren't real. Sansa's character deconstructs of classic stories for us and shows us how naive we all are for believing that Knights and good and honorable and that a fair face has a fair spirit behind it.

Welcome Ciella.

I think focusing specifically on the word change you could be correct, but I think Sansa does inspire. Sandor was always decent by nature but twisted inside by his experience and despair. So Sansa never really changes his nature but does inspire him to embrace the more positive aspects inside himself. There is no inspiring a Joffrey except maybe by giving him a crossbow and some cute bunny rabbits to shoot at.

Tyrion is a bit more complicated but I think there's inspiration there too. Tyrion raped Tysha, but Tywin set up the circumstances and manipulated Tyrion in certain ways (like claiming Jaime had paid her.) With Sansa Tywin again sets up circumstances where he wants Tyrion to rape his wife and manipulates Tyrion in certain ways (like denying him the Rock but claiming he'll get Winterfell if he knocks her up.) Tyrion chooses a different course with Sansa and I suspect this choice will be vital for his ability to look at himself in the mirror again as he tries to live with his true understanding of what he did to Tysha. I suspect there's another Beauty and the Beast tale playing out with Tyrion and Sansa even though they have both gone their separate ways. Despite Tyrion's many delusional hopes while he is married to Sansa, I think his choice to not repeat Tysha with her will be vital in his future arc and Sansa will be an inspirational figure somehow as that plays out-- but that remains to be seen.

I also do think that there are songs and fairy tales playing out. Frey Pies are the Rat Cook, Jon has Bael the Bard and the Last of the Giants playing out in his life, Mance in Winterfell, the Northmen marching with Stannis for Ned's girl, Davos saving Edric Storm, etc. It is just more of a real life ordinary people doing extraordinary things theme than a typical fantasy story hero one. You are most certainly correct in that the knights and kings who are supposed to live out the songs almost all fail miserably if not become the monsters themselves.

ETA On the change vs inspire distinction I'm reminded of Lyanna's words to Ned regarding Robert about love not being able to change a man's nature. Sansa won't change anyone's nature but she tends to bring out the best in people.

[wonder1859]

<snip>

Great post, Pod! You've given me a lot to think about! I'll attempt to do that when I'm home, instead of sneaking in at work. ^_^

[Valkyrja]

Welcome, Ciella!

I would have to disagree with you on this point. I think Sansa absolutely influenced changes in Sandor, from their first conversation after the Hand's tourney on.

And then there is the TV version where the Beast will always be a beast and the story is about the way his presence in Beauty's life changes her, as well as the story of his own struggle to accept and integrate his bestial aspects.

I absolutely agree with you on all of the above. And while I was referring to historical/folkloric versions of the tale, I definitely think that such re-tellings count here in our analysis (especially because GRRM was an integral part of said tv series!!!). There are two other modern literary re-tellings of Beauty and the Beast that come to mind that do *not* contain the usual ending of the Beast changing into a handsome prince. These two works being Rose Daughter, by Robin McKinley

(both Beauty and the Beast characters decide that they prefer his Beastly form, and the decision for him to remain a beast at the end is theirs together)

, and Heart's Blood, by Juliet Marillier

(Heart's Blood has a bit of a different premise, in which the 'beast' figure is never actually a literal beast, but rather a deformed man who is left crippled from a disease in childhood. Obviously, in this case him being magically 'cured' would have been an unrealistic cop-out for the writer, and instead she skillfully manages to convey that it is the the change experienced by both characters on the inside that counts most)

.

ETA: I'm sure there are others as well, but these were the two that came to mind. I will also here cite Jane Eyre, in which

Mr. Rochester--who is never described as handsome but still starts off as fairly physically appealing--actually becomes maimed at the *end* of the story, and doesn't even change all that much for the better because of it. He still has his brooding, surly personality. ;) Rather, it is Jane's character who grows more and more autonomous and comes back to him out of her own free will at the end (exerting her agency). Due to her great love for him, his maiming does not render him any less attractive in her eyes.

I had intended to keep from mentioning these re-tellings until later in the discussion, but I felt they were important to at least bring up because they illustrate that not all B&B tales necessarily contain the exact same 'moral' or ending.

[Beets]

However, at the same time, we are also aware of a lot of things that could be taken out of these fabled songs. Like for instance the Rhaegar and Lyanna story, or the birth of Dany's dragons, for instance. Some of Sansa's own story from her captivity in Kings Landing and forward is stuff worthy of songs, too. Littlefinger claims "Life is not a song", but like most things he says, he may not be fully truthful. (Which is interesting to consider too, did Littlefinger once like songs and singing? His love for Cat certainly seems to be taken straight out of the more fanciful songs. In other words: LF is trying to recreate the song that was "stolen" from him? )

Oooooh. I love this thread. So much.

GRRM loves taking a previous stereotype and gnawing away at it until it's no longer remotely recognizable. Petyr grew up poor and fell in love with a girl far above his station. Judging from songs, the object of Petyr's affection would love him back, and they'd find a way to defy her father, escape her betrothal, and live together happily ever after. As you can see, that obviously didn't work - he dueled her fiancee and nearly died, her father banished him back to the Fingers, and worst of all, Catelyn herself chose not to even entertain the possibility of marriage. Even where Petyr's life seems to stick to the songs, it doesn't. If he did believe in songs, he probably dreamed of somehow becoming a great knight or advisor. Maybe he'd be the scrawny general who won his battles with brains instead of a hammer (screw you, Robert). It would keep to the underdog theme, and while Petyr rises far, he's twisted into a pretty evil person on his way up. Even now, he's lord of Harrenhal - but does he have the love and appreciation of the commons? No. Is he helping make the world a better place? No. Has he found love? No. Petyr's life is the polar opposite of the songs, and in the end, I don't think he's happy with his life at all.

To tie this back to Sansa: Sansa's life seemed a lot like a song to her at first. While she no longer quite believes in songs anymore, we as the audience can see that her song is still a song, though the tune has changed. While Petyr's life is a gross twisted simulacrum of a classic song, Sansa's sticks closely to the formula, with a few vital elements changed that obscure the sweet and wonderful parts of it. Her Main Villain disguises himself as a pretty little prince, her Evil Stepmother as a kind and benevolent queen. The younger child who idolizes her has frequent fits and is a bit of a brat. Her loyal animal-friend-type person is the castle drunk, and her knight in shining armor is - in addition to being another alcoholic - violent, threatening, self-loathing, skeptical, hateful, enraged, and missing half a face. Even though the characters might not fit the classic image, each person plays their specific role. We have yet to see whether this will lead to a fairytale resolution, but it's apparent that the ending will at least be tweaked as much as the rest, if not subverted outright.

[bgona]

Muahaha, I do agree that Sandor is the Beast, whereas the rest are all lesser beasts. ;)

It is the only one (of all the others beasts) The as an article: The Hound as The Beast.

[Valkyrja]

It is the only one (of all the others beasts) The as an article: The Hound as The Beast.

Good catch, bgona! :)

[bgona]

:cheers:

[bgona]

Oh! No, I made a mistake but Tyrion is also named The Imp.

Anyway: Tyrion can fit as Cupid but I don't see him as The Beast. He has too good manners, something that The Beast didn't have.

[Milady of York]

Milady’s replies to everyone’s comments, part one:

RAGNORAK, GREAT MYTH INTERPRETER

You and I have had the same thoughts, it would seem. While reading the original Latin-English, I couldn’t help but think of Snow White’s stepmother, which in turn brought my attention to Cersei. Your interpretation is absolutely correct, both from a modern perspective and from a

Classical perspective. Venus isn’t usually so much of a jealous goddess as Hera is, but in this case, she is furious out of her wits not because she’s afraid she’ll be replaced by a younger and more beautiful woman, but because she’s actually been replaced already in the eyes of mortals. You have to understand what proskýnesis meant to the Greeks to grasp the extent of the replacement that has taken place, because – to use a modern parallel, it would be like making the sign of the cross for Catholics – by making that gesture, men are saying they think Psyche is more worthy of divine honours than Venus herself.

Psyche and Eros match was not out of love, which is ironic given that he’s the personification of love. The original doesn’t tell us why Cupid disobeyed his mother and put himself in the place of the awful beast that was supposed to be her husband as per the prophesy. Later versions tell us Venus had asked him to kill her (as did SN’s stepmother with the huntsman), but when he was ready to shoot her, he saw her stirring in her sleep, so innocent and beautiful he just stood there dumbfounded and shot himself in the foot (…talk about terrible marksmanship).

Kudos to you for all the other parallels!

BRASHCANDY, HOST EXTRAORDINAIRE

Cersei doesn't seem to credit Sansa as much of a threat during her time in KL, but we know she's growing more beautiful everyday, and has already shown that she would be a more compassionate and competent ruler than Cersei.

Yes, there’s a parallel with Psyche regarding this as well. She’s far more compassionate than Venus, who can be quite harsh and cruel and deceitful in her treatment of others. She, like Sansa, has people skills. Venus wasn’t counting on her being able to get help from outside, she thought her a helpless creature who would fail the first test. She almost convinced two godesses to help her! And they refused only because they feared Cupid’s darts.

It's also interesting that Psyche completes her tasks whilst pregnant. Sansa isn't pregnant, but she is acting as a mother figure to SR.

Now that you mention it, some retellings have cut this part off, something I lament, because Psyche’s motherhood is an important part of her story in the original. In fact, the reason Cupid asked her to go on with the secret for a little more was because of the child she was expecting, and Psyche’s persistent search for him also has to do with her child: it’s the only link she has to a time when she was happy with him.

Could Myranda and Mya play the role of the jealous sisters? Also, it seems like in all the retellings outside of the classical period, only the fourth quest is highlighted. Given our observations about Sansa as Persephone and the underworld, this seems important.

The sisters were a destructive force in Psyche’s life, not a positive one.

FIRE EATER

That Psyche is left in a mountain is the first thing we notice as a parallel with Sansa, and also, there’s a detail: what carries her down into the Vale where the palace is? The wind. Remember the scene in the last Sansa POV in AFFC.

The inclusion of the Knight and the squire is too recent, though, and has more to do with the author’s desire to reproduce the Elizabethan poem Faerie Queene, and she’s responsible for major changes in the plot regarding Psyche’s trials.

[Beets]

Oh! No, I made a mistake but Tyrion is also named The Imp.

Anyway: Tyrion can fit as Cupid but I don't see him as The Beast. He has too good manners, something that The Beast didn't have.

The Beast analogy doesn't have to fit with only certain aspects. It's the idea of it - a beautiful (physically or emotionally) person changing and being changed by their polar opposite. It doesn't even necessarily need to be romantic in order for the theme to apply - a platonic version would work just as well, with all the attributes mixed and matched.

The 'in the dark' comment from Tyrion was piteous and an interesting tie-in. Keep the rough wording, but change the intent entirely... Nice. Nice.

[Beets]

Could Myranda and Mya play the role of the jealous sisters? Also, it seems like in all the retellings outside of the classical period, only the fourth quest is highlighted. Given our observations about Sansa as Persephone and the underworld, this seems important.

The sisters were a destructive force in Psyche’s life, not a positive one.

First: kudos on your fantabulous postage, and all the fun discussion it's prompted. This is probably my most favoritest thread ever and I want to marry it and have its children. :bowdown:

Now, to the topic.

We still haven't seen enough of Randa and Mya to know what their reactions will be. LF has told us that Randa's dangerous, but people call his :bs: on a regular basis. It's clear she's smart and saucy, but will she use her smarts and her sauce for or against everyone's favorite little avian? Mya, I think, is more stubborn and straightforward, and personally, I think she'll end up more of an ally, but again, we aren't sure here.

That's part of what I love about the Vale right now - we've had a few defining character moments, but we have no way how they'll work for us. Waynwood is nice to Sansa and seems honorable (yay for my favorite minor character!), but will this prompt her to help Sansa as a poor bastard, or hurt her as an agent of LF? What if Sansa decides to betray LF? How will this person respond? What about that person? DO WE KNOW? OF COURSE NO AND WE NEED TO FIND OUT, SO HURRY UP GRRM.

[Valkyrja]

The Beast analogy doesn't have to fit with only certain aspects. It's the idea of it - a beautiful (physically or emotionally) person changing and being changed by their polar opposite. It doesn't even necessarily need to be romantic in order for the theme to apply - a platonic version would work just as well, with all the attributes mixed and matched.

The 'in the dark' comment from Tyrion was piteous and an interesting tie-in. Keep the rough wording, but change the intent entirely... Nice. Nice.

Even more interesting in light of the fact that when Sansa later dreams of her wedding night with Tyrion, he does *not* turn into the Knight of Flowers in the dark, but rather, a scarred, rasping Hound.

One beast, replaced by The Beast?

[Beets]

Even more interesting in light of the fact that when Sansa later dreams of her wedding night with Tyrion, he does *not* turn into the Knight of Flowers in the dark, but rather, a scarred, rasping Hound.

One beast, replaced by The Beast?

This is just too good. Not only does she root for the Hound at the tourney in both his matches (first the Kingslayer, then the Mountainous Pile of Immoral Crap That Doesn't Deserve To Sit A Horse), just as she rooted for Loras, but then... THEN... AFTER WHAT TYRION SAID... To put it eloquently, blarghleharglebarglarg. As much as Sandy whines about it, he's becoming a knight (to Sansa, at least). I find this very amusing.

[brashcandy]

I demand to be called Host Extraordinaire from now on folks :whip: Milady you are too kind :blushing:

While I do tend to agree with you that Randa and Mya will be allies, the parallel could still work in general don't you think? We have Randa questioning Sansa intently about what goes on in the marriage bed, along with her having once had hopes of a marriage to HtH, Sansa's to-be-betrothed. Mya as well has suffered her own disappointment with Mychel Redfort. And I think Beets makes an important point that we as yet don't know how things will turn out for Sansa with these women.

I agree that it's a shame Psyche's pregnancy is cut from some of the later versions. It does help to add that sense of urgency to Psyche's quest, and makes it all the more poignant and relatable.

[Valkyrja]

This is just too good. Not only does she root for the Hound at the tourney in both his matches (first the Kingslayer, then the Mountainous Pile of Immoral Crap That Doesn't Deserve To Sit A Horse), just as she rooted for Loras, but then... THEN... AFTER WHAT TYRION SAID... To put it eloquently, blarghleharglebarglarg. As much as Sandy whines about it, he's becoming a knight (to Sansa, at least). I find this very amusing.

Nice catch with the relation to the Hand's Tourney. :)

This is reminding me of a certain discussion we had a while ago regarding the symbolism of the Hand's Tourney with the red rose......anyone able to link to it? :)

[brashcandy]

Nice catch with the relation to the Hand's Tourney. :)

This is reminding me of a certain discussion we had a while ago regarding the symbolism of the Hand's Tourney with the red rose......anyone able to link to it? :)

That was K3's post wasn't it? I went looking in the resources, but I don't see it there. Somehow that slipped by. Hopefully Kitty will be able to source it.

[Beets]

I agree that it's a shame Psyche's pregnancy is cut from some of the later versions. It does help to add that sense of urgency to Psyche's quest, and makes it all the more poignant and relatable.

Most definitely a shame, but I can see why it was cut. This is just a personal theory, but in this case, I think the people who cut it were trying to prove a point. "Look, guys! He didn't even put a bun in the oven, and she's still that desperate! LOOK AT HOW MUCH SHE LOVES HIM, GUYS. LOOK." With a baby in her belly, Psyche'd be fighting for a life for her child. Childless, she's just trying to show her man how much she loves him.

The need to prove one's love is something that also ties in a lot to KL and Sansa's time there. Sansa's got a lot of that sort of thinking towards Joff at the beginning of their relationship, but gets over it when she realizes he's a total jackbag. Post-development Sansa/Alayne is more interested in surviving and protecting the people she cares about than proving anything. She could have proved her love (infatuation? funky-awkward-semi-platonic-whoosiwhatsit?) for the Hound by leaving KL with him, but she didn't, because she knew she'd probably get herself killed if she did, and that it was a safer bet to stay and see what Dontos had been brewing. Rather than proving any sort of emotion for Sandy, she chose a less risky route and takes the road that might lead her back to some sort of family and, you know... not dying. Survival vs. the proving of love. This isn't just a Psyche-centric theme, as it's spread over lots of fairytales, and shows yet again how Sansa's been maturing since her original song-centric personality.