From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa XIII

[Lady Lea]

I would take all translations with a grain of salt. I have some professional training in translation and most of the time it's just not possible to translate things literally. I really hate the Portuguese translation, I think it's shit. A lot of people are like "but translation is hard, cut the translator some slack". Well, they get some things right, but when they get it wrong, they get it WRONG.

In the Portuguese version, greyscale is A KIND OF CROCODILE. Shireen HAD HER FACE BITTEN BY A CROCODILE.

And don't think this is a Portuguese privilege. There was a thread a while ago about translation mistakes and it seems almost all of the translated versions have a major error at some point or another.

Anyway, the passage we were talking about. "E arranquei a maldita canção dela, ela não me deu. Também queria possuí-la. Devia ter feito isso. Devia tê-la fodido até fazer sangue e devia ter arrancado seu coração antes de deixá-la para aquele anão".

Ugh it sounds so much harsher in Portuguese. Anyway they went with "possuir", which means they went they sexual route, and not the "take away" route. Something like "I wanted to have her". There's no ambiguity there.

Also, just a note on the French "baiser". Yeah, I suppose it's a sort of slang for "to fuck" but when I lived in France NO ONE used "baiser" to mean kiss. I tried it once and it did NOT go well. When you want to talk about kissing in French you use embrasser, faire une bise, faire un bisou, but stay away from baiser. It's a case where the slang meaning overtook the "real" meaning already. (Like how no one uses "gay" to mean happy anymore) When it's used in that passage it is not supposed to be ambiguous. It means "to fuck".

[wonder1859]

Nothing like a brandy-new thread to post in!

I wonder what Sandor would think if he found out that not only was the Lannister marriage unconsummated, but that Sansa's doing rather better than she was at KL. Would he be less guilty? Would he be happy for her, or concerned due to the continuing presence of LF and other disturbing influences and evil people?

I think it's safe to say he'd be extremely relieved that her marriage remained unconsummated, and likely proud of her for standing her ground and refusing to give in. When you look back at the text, Sandor was present during many of the moments when Sansa stiffened her spine and the wolf emerged. I think that's one of the reasons he was drawn to her: he saw her strength of spirit and admired her for it.

Knowing that Tyrion didn't have his way with Sansa would have to ease some of his guilt, but not all of it. As far as the situation with Littlefinger goes, it might be a sort of "the lesser of two evils" situation in Sandor's mind. He seemed to have a pretty good bead on most of the players in KL, and that probably included the Master of Coins. As to the dangers Sansa is facing now, I wonder if he might be more concerned about the psychological threat to her rather than the physical. Which would in itself be frustrating for him, since eliminating a physical threat to her would be a no-brainer, whereas the other ... :dunno:

[LordBloodraven]

And I meant to take her too = Et j’avais envie de la prendre, elle aussi.

I should have = J’aurais dû.

I should have fucked her bloody = J’aurais dû la baiser à mort

And ripped her heart out = et lui arracher le coeur

before leaving her for that Imp = avant de la laisser pour ce putain de nain.

Prendre means to take, but also to grab. No sexual connotations here. What struck Milady as curious is that baiser means fuck in French vulgar slang only, its principal meaning is to kiss.

Interesting, isn't it? It's certainly so for Milady. Perhaps some charitable soul lurking here can enlighten Milady about how it was translated into German and Portuguese?

Baiser when used as a verbe means to "have sex" rather than to kiss, unless it's Old French, as in before 19th century. Baiser as a kiss is almost always used as a noun, as in "donner un baiser".

It's interesting that the translator used it as a verb as it best shows Sandor's devotion and his conflicted emotions when he gave her a visit during the battle

[Kittykatknits]

Some may accuse this thread of 'reading into' GRRM's works too much, but I feel that some of the symbolism he includes is so blatant that people are just missing/ignoring it because they skim Sansa's chapters, or don't view her as a 'real' character, but as more of an annoying proxy for the reader. :rolleyes:

I was in a thread the other day and someone felt there was no foreshadowing or symbolism in Sansa's snow castle scene which really surprised me. The poster's thought was that it was merely about character development. It's not an interpretation that I can agree with but I think it's an example of what you are talking about here. After, there have been numerous threads on this board that have attempted to break down and understand everything that is happening in that scene.

Besides, we also have Martin's recent interview confirming that he does like to use symbolism in his work but that it's the readers job to find and understand what it means. He won't tell us other than to say if we think we see something, then we probably do.

BTW, I like Catelyn, Sansa and Dany who all of them seem to get much flack from the fandom. Jeyne Westerling, OTOH, I don't hate her (losing the kingdom was Robb's fault, as well as Tywin Lannister and Walder Frey) but I don't get the fandom love for her as I find her bland and boring. But to each their own, right?

On a tangent, I read a recent interview with GRRM about the TV series. He mentioned that he found Arya one of the easiest characters to write. I wonder if that has something to do with the fandom at large liking her more than Sansa? GRRM has also said he finds Tyrion's chapters easy to write as he can relate to him, and I surmise that some of this "I have an easier time writing these characters" translates because the chapters flow?

I can definitely see how fan favorites are easier to write - you have to worry less about reaction, for one, and characters you like are easier to write for as you tend to empathize more.

Martin has said he finds both Tyrion and Arya easy to write. He has also said that he loves writing the chapters with Arya in Braavos and could write a book of them. Whether or not there is a correlation between that and fan favorites, we can only guess. I do remember a recent interview where he talked about some characters being harder to write and from his description, it sounded as if he was talking about Catelyn, easily one of the least popular characters in the fandom.

On the whole, I admire Martin's effort to get inside the head of his female characters and present such a wide variety of women in the books. But, that doesn't mean he is infallible. Dany's feelings of Daario is a great example of this, the portrayal has never struck me as being all that realistic even though I think her feelings of desire are legitimate. It's the same with Sansa in GOT, where he presents a very naive young girl. A child of 11 who has been raised in a loving family such as Sansa is going to be naive. But, again, I think his portrayal here is off, it just doesn't sit right with me. His effort to present an 11 year old girl with a love for songs and stories breaks down for me at times. I have some problems with Catelyn too.

So, as I said, I don't know that there is a relationship here or not but there are some oddities that I've noticed for awhile.

<snip>

Thanks for bringing this up. I think it shows that translators are just like the readers and can read the same thing many ways. Members in this forum have argued over the meaning of lines when we are inside the characters head, trying to understand a line when we don't have that privilege - as with Sandor, is all that much harder. Although, I do support the "take away from KL" interpretation, I'm convinced that Martin wrote it ambiguous on purpose. It's part of his "I played with it a little" versus making it blatant. Goes back to the subtle we've been talking about.

[Lady Lea]

And the more I think about it, the more ridiculous I find that they used "possuir". No one talks like that. It's the most affected way of saying you want to fuck someone, like straight out of bodice-ripping romances or period telenovelas. You just don't say you wanted to "possuir" someone and then two sentences later be like "fodido até fazer sangue" which is probably the most vulgar thing I've ever read. SMH

[Beets]

I think it's safe to say he'd be extremely relieved that her marriage remained unconsummated, and likely proud of her for standing her ground and refusing to give in. When you look back at the text, Sandor was present during many of the moments when Sansa stiffened her spine and the wolf emerged. I think that's one of the reasons he was drawn to her: he saw her strength of spirit and admired her for it.

Knowing that Tyrion didn't have his way with Sansa would have to ease some of his guilt, but not all of it. As far as the situation with Littlefinger goes, it might be a sort of "the lesser of two evils" situation in Sandor's mind. He seemed to have a pretty good bead on most of the players in KL, and that probably included the Master of Coins. As to the dangers Sansa is facing now, I wonder if he might be more concerned about the psychological threat to her rather than the physical. Which would in itself be frustrating for him, since eliminating a physical threat to her would be a no-brainer, whereas the other ... :dunno:

What if he finds out in a place where he has no means of eliminating any physical threats to Sansa? It'd probably piss him off that she's being forced into ANOTHER, yes, that's right, ANOTHER arranged marriage, but if he was as observant as you think in KL, he's probably aware of LF's infatuation with Cat, which creates more problems. I still think that everything LF is doing in the Eyrie ties back to gaining more power in a less subtle fashion, and his wife husbandry. He's raising Sansa to be his perfect version of Catelyn, and after all of this is done, I think he'll try to marry her, or... not. But enjoy the benefits a marriage would have brought. If you know what I mean. :stunned:

[Beets]

That is so gross... :shocked:

I hope she kicks him in the face. Several times. :bang:

Speaking of tragedies - will she even survive to the end? It would sad, but very Martinesque to have us doing all this theorizing, and then kill her suddenly off in the next book.

[Lady Lea]

Thanks for bringing this up. I think it shows that translators are just like the readers and can read the same thing many ways. Members in this forum have argued over the meaning of lines when we are inside the characters head, trying to understand a line when we don't have that privilege - as with Sandor, is all that much harder. Although, I do support the "take away from KL" interpretation, I'm convinced that Martin wrote it ambiguous on purpose. It's part of his "I played with it a little" versus making it blatant. Goes back to the subtle we've been talking about.

Yeah, you know, translators don't get to discuss the meaning of stuff with the author, and sometimes it's apparent that there's little editing afterwards, even in big works like ASOIAF, Harry Potter (oh don't get me started on how the characters changed names and sometimes GENDER with each book even though the translator was the same everytime), and even Agatha Christie's stuff. They can only try to do the best with what they've got.

[LordBloodraven]

There's also an inversion between the Hound and Joffrey and Sansa's opinions about them, while he grows up and get hit by the harshness of life. Joffrey was Prince Charming from the start for Sansa and she gets to know how rotten he is after he killed Ned. I suspect she glimpsed Joffrey's true character before that but eventually put it aside as a false truth. During the scene when Joff shows her Ned's head, she thinks "How have I ever considered him as beautiful with his pouty lips" about Joffrey and starts to get weary of him. Joffrey passed from beauty to beast in Sansa's eyes, physically and morally.

She was scared of the Hound and weary of his anger at her naiveté. But it's like Sandor starts to sympathize with her when Ned is killed and she gets to see beside his half-burned face. Sandor's advices became valuable and the only protection she had from Joffrey while in King's Landing. I don't know what to think of Sandor's intrusion during the Blackwater but her constant fantasms and memories of Sandor shows that she has a lot of sympathy for Sandor and has come to see him past the Hound helmet. "And the Hound is dead" dixit the Elder Brother.

[Milady of York]

And the more I think about it, the more ridiculous I find that they used "possuir". No one talks like that. It's the most affected way of saying you want to fuck someone, like straight out of bodice-ripping romances or period telenovelas. You just don't say you wanted to "possuir" someone and then two sentences later be like "fodido até fazer sangue" which is probably the most vulgar thing I've ever read. SMH

I agree. It sounds just as ridiculous in English as well. In Regency bodice-rippers, they use this sentence: He ached to possess her; that would be the equivalent to your possuí-la.

[wonder1859]

I still think that everything LF is doing in the Eyrie ties back to gaining more power in a less subtle fashion, and his wife husbandry. He's raising Sansa to be his perfect version of Catelyn, and after all of this is done, I think he'll try to marry her, or... not. But enjoy the benefits a marriage would have brought. If you know what I mean. :stunned:

Agreed. I have a feeling his plan to eliminate SweetRobin and marry Sansa off to HtH is going to be derailed, one way or another. And I think his escalating inappropriate behavior toward Sansa may well be the thing that causes her to stage her own revolt against him. There are so many factors that could figure in to Sansa finally thinking enough is enough. TWoW needs to be published sooner rather than later, thank you very much.

[Beets]

Agreed. I have a feeling his plan to eliminate SweetRobin and marry Sansa off to HtH is going to be derailed, one way or another. And I think his escalating inappropriate behavior toward Sansa may well be the thing that causes her to stage her own revolt against him. There are so many factors that could figure in to Sansa finally thinking enough is enough. TWoW needs to be published sooner rather than later, thank you very much.

Is it just me, or is most of the Vale in agreement with me as far as thinking that SR might still have a chance to be a good lord? I don't think they'd take too kindly to the murder of their little lord.

Maybe it IS just me...

Either way, I don't think Sansa herself will stand for it.

[Kittykatknits]

Speaking of tragedies - will she even survive to the end? It would sad, but very Martinesque to have us doing all this theorizing, and then kill her suddenly off in the next book.

I find it's easier to just report trolls rather than respond to them.

And if Sansa is not one of the characters that survives the series, I'll eat my hat. There are very few who I would bet will be around at the end, but she is one of them.

[Beets]

And if Sansa is not one of the characters that survives the series, I'll eat my hat. There are very few who I would bet will be around at the end, but she is one of them.

Her plot armor's been significant up until now, but so have many of the other characters who've since gone and kicked the bucket... I worry for her.

Fan consensus seems to state that Sandor's off chilling in the Quiet Isle with the guy who gave the whole "Broken Men" monologue. If he is, if/how will he ever come out of hiding? A Gregor battle would be awesome, but up until now I'd say he's had a few opportunities to kill his brother that he hasn't taken. Even if his bro is undead, will he be able to chop the mountain in the face? I'm skeptical.

I'm also curious as to how Cersei will react if LF's nutty HtH scenario actually goes as planned. She's still wanted for regicide, which won't gain her any friends in KL, and I think the Tyrells will probably turn against her at this point. They don't seem like the most steadfast of friends. The North will probably support her, as her claim is better than Arya's as she's older, but only after an annulment of the Lannister marriage, so those lions don't get their hands on the North. Knowing the Church, I get the feeling that they'd support this, as Sansa's good with words and it would mess with Cersei's plans.

[Lyanna Stark]

Agreed. I have a feeling his plan to eliminate SweetRobin and marry Sansa off to HtH is going to be derailed, one way or another. And I think his escalating inappropriate behavior toward Sansa may well be the thing that causes her to stage her own revolt against him. There are so many factors that could figure in to Sansa finally thinking enough is enough. TWoW needs to be published sooner rather than later, thank you very much.

The easiest way for that to be derailed is for Sansa's marriage to be considered void due to the appearance of "Tysha", which means Sansa will need to make a hard decision: leave with Sweetrobin, or stay and live with the fact that her less than amazing cousin gets sacrificed. Even though it's obvious she finds SR a chore, I think at some point she will need to make a choice whether to save or sacrifice him. Ned would not sacrifice a kid, not even a fairly hopeless one like SR, but Littlefinger has no such compunction.

[Beets]

The easiest way for that to be derailed is for Sansa's marriage to be considered void due to the appearance of "Tysha", which means Sansa will need to make a hard decision: leave with Sweetrobin, or stay and live with the fact that her less than amazing cousin gets sacrificed. Even though it's obvious she finds SR a chore, I think at some point she will need to make a choice whether to save or sacrifice him. Ned would not sacrifice a kid, not even a fairly hopeless one like SR, but Littlefinger has no such compunction.

Sansa worries about SR. She tries to spare him, and it's the only way she can get herself to lie. I think that if it's a choice between killing Robin or leaving, she'll leave. It'll be hard for her, but she'll do it.

I hope.

Whatever she does, it'll be a moment that will define her for the next few books and affect her interactions with all the other characters.

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

Is it just me, or is most of the Vale in agreement with me as far as thinking that SR might still have a chance to be a good lord? I don't think they'd take too kindly to the murder of their little lord.

Maybe it IS just me...

Either way, I don't think Sansa herself will stand for it.

It is Petyr who says that the Vale won't ever love Sweetrobin. Petyr says that everyone will swoon over Harry "The Young Falcon" but remember, Petyr is a liar and bullshitter. We have only his word on this. And again I emphasize - in the words of Petyr himself - "I did warn you not to trust me." Myranda Royce never says that anyone dislikes SR or prefers Harry, nor does anyone else. In fact, Bronze Yohn wanting to foster SR makes no sense unless he thinks that SR needs to be trained for his future as a lord (not gotten rid of).

And if Sansa is not one of the characters that survives the series, I'll eat my hat. There are very few who I would bet will be around at the end, but she is one of them.

I agree with you. "A Dream of Spring" (which may or may not be the last book in the series!) was originally titled "A Time for Wolves."

The easiest way for that to be derailed is for Sansa's marriage to be considered void due to the appearance of "Tysha", which means Sansa will need to make a hard decision: leave with Sweetrobin, or stay and live with the fact that her less than amazing cousin gets sacrificed. Even though it's obvious she finds SR a chore, I think at some point she will need to make a choice whether to save or sacrifice him. Ned would not sacrifice a kid, not even a fairly hopeless one like SR, but Littlefinger has no such compunction.

LF certainly has the wherewithal to whistle up a fake "Tysha" just as he did a fake "Arya." I wouldn't be surprised if he did that. And with Sansa being cast in the Mother archetype I wouldn't be surprised if she put her cousin's welfare first even if she finds him to be a brat. If she's being set up for larger things - Regent or Queen or whatever - then she has to learn to put the welfare of others as a priority; in the words of Dumbledore, "do what is right and not what is easy."

I forgot to hit the quote on Sansa being wanted for regicide if her identity becomes known but a response: We've speculated on here about the mysterious tapestries that LF is having Cersei send him. Very possibly they are Targaryen tapestries, and IIRC Petyr does know about Dany and perhaps Aegon. Putting aside the "is Aegon fake?" question, it could be that LF is counting on a Targaryen invasion rendering the charges of regicide moot because there will be no more Lannisters or Baratheons in power to make such charges stick.

Now whether LF is planning to marry Sansa to Aegon is going out on a long theoretical limb - it's possible, but there is no evidence other than that is just the sort of thing LF would do. I believe that, ultimately, LF wants Sansa for himself. He wouldn't be able to have her in the sense that he wants (physically) if she were married to another man, though he might still have his power; but if he sees Sansa as a replacement Cat then nothing but marriage to her will do.

[Kittykatknits]

Her plot armor's been significant up until now, but so have many of the other characters who've since gone and kicked the bucket... I worry for her.

I agree with you. "A Dream of Spring" (which may or may not be the last book in the series!) was originally titled "A Time for Wolves."

I agree with KRBD here. We have the original title of the last book and Jojen already told us the wolves will return. Plus, we have Sansa as a mother figure. If we look at the sack of WF and the looming battle with the others, someone will need to rebuild and pick up the pieces - in keeping with the bittersweet element of the story. I combine that with the snow castle scene as well and Sansa's character, with the mother imagery, perfectly match this role. Sure, Martin could turn this on its head and kill her off in the next book but I seriously doubt it.

[Caro99]

Hello and welcome Beets!! :D

I agree with Kitty and KRBD about how in the next book Sansa is going to arrive at a crossroad where she will have to decidewhere she wantes her life to head to... a sort of point of no return moment.

I think it was Kittykat the one to say that she takes the death speech a little ambigous since that might have very well been George's take on it... and I agree

& I also think Sandor will be glad that Sansa is no longer with the Lannisters due to Cersei wanting to kill her for revenge, and if he does learn that her marriage to tyrion was never consummated, his anxiety will be soothed. But as someone else said above, he knows who LF is after living near him for years, and he was present when LF sold out Ned to the Lannisters on the Throne Room, so...

[Beets]

It is Petyr who says that the Vale won't ever love Sweetrobin. Petyr says that everyone will swoon over Harry "The Young Falcon" but remember, Petyr is a liar and bullshitter. We have only his word on this. And again I emphasize - in the words of Petyr himself - "I did warn you not to trust me." Myranda Royce never says that anyone dislikes SR or prefers Harry, nor does anyone else. In fact, Bronze Yohn wanting to foster SR makes no sense unless he thinks that SR needs to be trained for his future as a lord (not gotten rid of).

Petyr, your BS has been called. :bs:

So it isn't just me! Nice to know.

Hey, Caro! It's nice to meet you.

I think that Sansa has just enough of her song-oriented thinking left to spare SR. From a narrative perspective, it would be a great way to show that even after all she's been through, Sansa still believes in heroes.

...and then a certain disfigured ex-alcoholic sweeps in and rescues her after having lived on the Quiet Isle for the last two books. :wideeyed: