Rereading Tyrion II (AGOT-ACOK)

[Lummel]

Welcome to rereading Tyrion II

This is a reread thread devoted to Tyrion Lannister which began here. Your hosts on this journey are Butterbumps!, Ragnorak and myself and each of us take turns to post introductions to each chapter. Our most recent chapter post was Tyrion VIII. Next up is Butterbumps! with Tyrion IX and then as a special treat Ragnorak will provide an end of AGOT summary post before I start on ACOK with Tyrion I (ACOK).

Please do read along with us – there is a handy page guide here if you want to find the chapters. Please feel free to add relevant details from other POV chapters and please do refer backwards to earlier chapters – this helps to tie the characters journey together.

However do not spend entire posts discussing future events. I know big and exciting things happen in future chapters, but we are rereading Tyrion chronologically not discussing his greatest hits!

The idea is to have a thread in which we can concentrate on the details and be inspired by things that we notice for the first time or which take on a new significance on a reread as well as a thread in which we can have huge, wide ranging differences of opinion but still can respect each other views and readings.

[Ragnorak]

@Lyanna Stark

Great post. Glad you found your notes.

I like the metaphor of Shae as a blank canvas. As far as plying her trade this seems to be what she does best. When it comes to sex, everyone wants something more than what's between the legs-- both as part of actually having sex (that's why some people are considered better partners than others) as well as the emotional and psychological needs behind it. From the beginning Shae is offering to become whatever fantasy Tyrion desires and his real desire is Tysha.

It is important to note that Tyrion believes Tysha really was a whore at this point. In keeping with his Lannister values he is trying to purchase a replacement for what he lost somehow believing he can buy it back. He sees his mistake last time as falling for the deception by believing that Tysha truly loved him. That's why he asks for "the truth of you, girl." The futility of it is apparent immediately because falling for the deception is the only thing that makes it worthwhile. He can't be aware that he is just buying her and actually resurrect the feelings and experience he had with Tysha. He needs to fall for the deception or it just doesn't work.

I think Tysha really is the incentive moment for Tyrion's inner conflict and embodies the central issues that define this conflict throughout his story. The most obvious aspect is love vs money, but there is also love vs fear, protection vs exploitation, class issues and more. Tyrion set himself up in a cottage. We repeatedly see this idea of a man being a king in his own castle however humble it may be. It comes up with Craster and even just before the Red Wedding where a literal king bends to the rules of the house owner. A king protects his people or he is no king. Guest right is really a mutual protection pact between the king of the castle and those he shelters. Tyrion not only failed to protect Tysha but violated her in essentially the same way the Walder Frey violated guest right at the Red Wedding also at Tywin's behest (which also ties in with the food metaphors.) I expect his future interactions with Shae to be very informative material.

I agree that Tyrion does not relish cruelty or gloat over his superiority by nature unlike his siblings. He does as a tool when he perceives (correctly or not) a practical need, but he also does it when anyone treats him like Tywin does. Whenever he is demeaned, laughed at, or humiliated it brings out some of the worst in him.

Does finding a Tysha replacement have anything to do with his swing away from the Lannister Family Values he was so wholeheartedly embracing last chapter? Is it just Tywin's rejection and attempt to get him killed in battle or does embracing a Shae surrogate play into his pleasure at Tywin's "defeat?"

[Blisscraft]

Ragnorak - Interesting question regarding Shae as a Tysha replacement or surrogate. I'm not sure that I can answer it, but I my first impression about the issue of Shae's surrogacy has to do with Tyrion's growing up not ony without his mother, but also, according to most of his family, as the cause of her death. Such a notable loss, Tyrion's and his siblings' mother and Twyin's wife created a true "hole" in the Lannister Family that required some filling up.

[Natalie_S]

Ragnorak - Interesting question regarding Shae as a Tysha replacement or surrogate. I'm not sure that I can answer it, but I my first impression about the issue of Shae's surrogacy has to do with Tyrion's growing up not ony without his mother, but also, according to most of his family, as the cause of her death. Such a notable loss, Tyrion's and his siblings' mother and Twyin's wife created a true "hole" in the Lannister Family that required some filling up.

I'd also like to add that he might be looking for a Tysha-like figure also becuase it's the only positive model that he has.

His uncles, especially Gerion, might have been kind enough, but in Tyrion's memory we also feel a sort of detachment. He could tumble for them and recite the World's 16 wonders, but apart from that it doesn't seem that they were particularly close.

Jaime treated Tyrion "with the smallest measure of affection and respect"... we know that Jaime loves Tyrion, but probably he wasn't a very touchy-feely kind of brother (at least with him).

Tysha is by all means the first person that loves Tyrion openly, giving him the physical closeness (I'm not talking about sex, but simply hugs, kisses and stuff like that) he was, perhaps unknowingly, missing all his life, and also appreciating him completely, not only despite his appearance, but loving that as well: "I love you hands, your lips, your face" he remembers her saying, and that was probably important for him.

With Tysha, Tyrion experiences not only love, but unconditioned affection for the first time in his life.

So he's not just trying to recreate the "girlfriend experience" but all the emotional life that he was denied until the moment he met her.

[Elba the Intoner]

Lummel wrote in post 393 from the last page of Rereading Tyrion I,

I'm hesitant to read too much into the armour since Tyrion isn't a standard size and does have a proper made to measure suit back home at Casterly Rock. So to me the mismatched armour seems like more a basic practical reality rather than a symbolic comment on his nature.

Maybe there is nothing more to it but it makes me wonder about a couple of things. First, why would Tywin or Tyrion or whoever ordered shiny, custom fitting armor for Tyrion even bother? It seems clear that neither Tyrion or Tywin ever really expected to fight in battles like Jaime does, and it is even one of the many sources of Tywin's scorn for Tyrion. So why did they even bother having that armor made for Tyrion? Second, I think there could be something symbolic in the fact that Tyrion's good, well fitting, custom made, fancy, shiny armor was left at Casterly Rock, necessitating Tyrion to wear ill fitting, mismatched armor. Ill fitting and mismatched certainly seems to be how Tyrion thinks of himself, especially when he's around Tywin. Also, perhaps the fact that the golden, custom made armor represents the splendor of House Lannister and everything that Tywin wants to present as an image to others but that is left at the rock. Perhaps this means that Tyrion will one day get Casterly Rock but not through physical fighting?

Also, Lyanna that line about Pod definitely having a tongue jumped out at me too. I wouldn't be surprised if it foreshadows something we haven't seen yet like Theon's comment about Hodor knowing his name as you mentioned or when Sansa wished that some hero would chop off Janos Slynt's head.

[Blisscraft]

Elba and Lyanna - I hope Pod simply stays "tongue- tied." It's hard enough for him to talk with one, I'd hate to see him lose it. :crying:

NS - I agree about Tysha's "unconditonal" love. She is seems to fulfill in Tyrion the primal desire to be loved without "impediment."

[Winter's Knight]

Tyrion wearing mismatched armour: did anyone else think of motley clothing? In Dance, we see the protection (armour) that being a Lannister afforded him stripped away, leaving him to have to resort to playing a fool to survive.

[Lummel]

Elba, it would be Parade armour I guess (like the third example down here, possibly featuring one of these) for formal occasions when House Lannister wanted to show off it's might and it wouldn't do to have Tyrion in plain clothes. But it wouldn't be the kind of thing that Tyrion would have taken with him to Winterfell, nor would Tywin have brought it from Casterly Rock, quite reasonably because he thought Tyrion might be dead and certainly didn't expect him to ride down from the mountains of the moon.

I think I've read some GRRM interview in which he said that Tyrion would have been trained at arms (and we see he can fight despite his physique) so it would make sense for him to have a a proper set of armour.

My thought is that if Jaime was caught without armour then he would have ended up with a mismatched set too, only because of Tyrion's figure the result is going to be particularly odd looking.

ETA there is a bunch of really fancy stuff here, although possibly too modern in style to represent what GRRM was imagining.

[Natalie_S]

Lummel wrote in post 393 from the last page of Rereading Tyrion I,

Maybe there is nothing more to it but it makes me wonder about a couple of things. First, why would Tywin or Tyrion or whoever ordered shiny, custom fitting armor for Tyrion even bother? It seems clear that neither Tyrion or Tywin ever really expected to fight in battles like Jaime does, and it is even one of the many sources of Tywin's scorn for Tyrion. So why did they even bother having that armor made for Tyrion? Second, I think there could be something symbolic in the fact that Tyrion's good, well fitting, custom made, fancy, shiny armor was left at Casterly Rock, necessitating Tyrion to wear ill fitting, mismatched armor. Ill fitting and mismatched certainly seems to be how Tyrion thinks of himself, especially when he's around Tywin. Also, perhaps the fact that the golden, custom made armor represents the splendor of House Lannister and everything that Tywin wants to present as an image to others but that is left at the rock. Perhaps this means that Tyrion will one day get Casterly Rock but not through physical fighting?

I've always assumed that an armour was something that every noble man should possess.... like, I don't know, the watch that relatives give for the degree or when you turn 18.

Perhaps he was supposed to wear it for some kinds of formal occasion (I'm probably biased by the TV shows: http://0.tqn.com/d/s...-Lannister1.jpg where he wears it every now and then, not always in connection with battles) or maybe Tyrion got it done just in case?

I've always attributed the mismatched armour and the mismatched clothes he wears in ADWD to the practical reason that most people have a different bodyshape from his and probably only custom made clothes fitted him properly.

EDIT: Lummel, I've just seen your post. Great minds think alike! :P

[anonymouseuser]

Ragnorak - Interesting question regarding Shae as a Tysha replacement or surrogate. I'm not sure that I can answer it, but I my first impression about the issue of Shae's surrogacy has to do with Tyrion's growing up not ony without his mother, but also, according to most of his family, as the cause of her death. Such a notable loss, Tyrion's and his siblings' mother and Twyin's wife created a true "hole" in the Lannister Family that required some filling up.

Ah yes, thank you. That's what I've been waiting to hear. There was something about the Tysha factor that always seemed flawed to me and as I was driving back home just now I put my finger on it - and it's Joanna. The lack of the kind of unconditional love the mother figure supplies and the fact that Tyrion would have been suckled and nursed and taken care of by women who were paid to do so. Now Tyrion has a sentimental streak a mile wide and yet we never hear him talk with any affection about a nurse or nanny the way the Stark kids constantly hark back to Old Nan's stories, for example, so I think it's safe to assume there was no-one like that in his life. His sister couldn't stand him practically from the moment he was born and years before the Maegi the Frog prophecy (that girl has issues about physical beauty and the lack of it) and his aunt Genna was married and away with her Frey husband.

[Natalie_S]

The lack of the kind of unconditional love the mother figure supplies and the fact that Tyrion would have been suckled and nursed and taken care of by women who were paid to do so. Now Tyrion has a sentimental streak a mile wide and yet we never hear him talk with any affection about a nurse or nanny the way the Stark kids constantly hark back to Old Nan's stories, for example, so I think it's safe to assume there was no-one like that in his life.

Cersei made sure from the very start that it was better for servants not to get too attached to baby Tyrion:

"Jaime took us down to your nursery. Your wet nurse tried to send us off, but your sister was having none of that. 'He's mine" she said, 'and you're just a milk cow, you can't tell me what to do. Be quiet or I'll have my father cut your tongue out. A cow doesn't need a tongue, only udders."

[Elba the Intoner]

Lummel and Natalie S. Thanks for those examples. I don't know much about armor and had assumed it was purely for purposes of fighting. That 15th Century horned helmet btw is awesome! What a striking figure someone would make wearing that.

[Lyanna Stark]

It is important to note that Tyrion believes Tysha really was a whore at this point. In keeping with his Lannister values he is trying to purchase a replacement for what he lost somehow believing he can buy it back. He sees his mistake last time as falling for the deception by believing that Tysha truly loved him. That's why he asks for "the truth of you, girl." The futility of it is apparent immediately because falling for the deception is the only thing that makes it worthwhile. He can't be aware that he is just buying her and actually resurrect the feelings and experience he had with Tysha. He needs to fall for the deception or it just doesn't work.

I agree. It's a tragedy with Tyrion that he somehow believes he can buy back what he once had, even as he here thinks that it was an illusion even then. I also think you are spot on in that there is a futility in asking for the truth of it, and that he doesn't really want it. What he wants is the deception. The sweet, sweet lies.

We also see this duplicity in his reaction to Shae. He thinks she's faking it, but it's so nice he says he doesn't care. He's both aware of the deception and buying into it at the same time.

I think Tysha really is the incentive moment for Tyrion's inner conflict and embodies the central issues that define this conflict throughout his story. The most obvious aspect is love vs money, but there is also love vs fear, protection vs exploitation, class issues and more.

Absolutely. Tysha is like an open wound for him, and it keep fueling his conflicts in many ways.

Tyrion set himself up in a cottage. We repeatedly see this idea of a man being a king in his own castle however humble it may be. It comes up with Craster and even just before the Red Wedding where a literal king bends to the rules of the house owner. A king protects his people or he is no king. Guest right is really a mutual protection pact between the king of the castle and those he shelters. Tyrion not only failed to protect Tysha but violated her in essentially the same way the Walder Frey violated guest right at the Red Wedding also at Tywin's behest (which also ties in with the food metaphors.) I expect his future interactions with Shae to be very informative material.

Really love this paragraph. Very thought provoking stuff. Lummel has touched previously on how the institutions of Westeros society are shown to be falling apart, or be in a state of decay. The Kingsguard, the Nights Watch, the institution of Knighthood itself, the ruling Lord abusing the smallfolk and pillaging the land. The breaking of the guest right is also in the same way a breaking of the social contract. It's a breaking of the building blocks of civilisation, which plunges Westeros into a sense of chaos and lawlessness. It really is becoming more and more a place where strong arms rule the world and the ones who can't protect themselves need to get out of the way.

The food metaphors are a great connection. I wonder what we will see when we continue to look at them throughout Tyrion's story.

Tysha is by all means the first person that loves Tyrion openly, giving him the physical closeness (I'm not talking about sex, but simply hugs, kisses and stuff like that) he was, perhaps unknowingly, missing all his life, and also appreciating him completely, not only despite his appearance, but loving that as well: "I love you hands, your lips, your face" he remembers her saying, and that was probably important for him.

With Tysha, Tyrion experiences not only love, but unconditioned affection for the first time in his life.

So he's not just trying to recreate the "girlfriend experience" but all the emotional life that he was denied until the moment he met her.

I think this is very much it, and why I referred to as the Tysha story as an "open wound". Tyrion has a strong wish and a strong longing to be loved. Because he's never really had that in his life. It's been dry and loveless.

The tragedy here is that he still thinks Tysha was a whore at this point, so that makes sense in that he treats even this as an illusion. At this stage, he thinks the only unconditional love he's ever experienced was actually conditional: it was money that bought it.

[Lyanna Stark]

Ragnorak - Interesting question regarding Shae as a Tysha replacement or surrogate. I'm not sure that I can answer it, but I my first impression about the issue of Shae's surrogacy has to do with Tyrion's growing up not ony without his mother, but also, according to most of his family, as the cause of her death. Such a notable loss, Tyrion's and his siblings' mother and Twyin's wife created a true "hole" in the Lannister Family that required some filling up.

This is a very good way of putting it: that Joanna's death really created a hole.

Cersei seems to have dealt with it by becoming cruel and cold (mostly) and to decree that love is poison. Jaime by engaging in a completely blinkered and twisted relationship with Cersei and Tyrion by his trying to desperately recreate the feeling of being loved unconditionally, but failing that he takes the illusion of it. (Interestingly, Tyrion and Cersei seem to mostly be relating and comparing themselves to Tywin, while Jaime had that odd waking dream of Joanna.)

Elba and Lyanna - I hope Pod simply stays "tongue- tied." It's hard enough for him to talk with one, I'd hate to see him lose it. :crying:

Me too. :) Poor Pod. I just hope since he's been tagging along with Brienne for no real plot reason that he will have a good reason to be there later on. It was just a sentence that stood out to me as probably not being put in there by chance.

[Lummel]

...Really love this paragraph. Very thought provoking stuff. Lummel has touched previously on how the institutions of Westeros society is shown to be falling apart, or be in decay. The Kingsguard, the Nights Watch, the institution of Knighthood itself, the ruling Lord abusing the smallfolk and pillaging the land. The breaking of the guest right is also in the same way a breaking of the social contract. It's a breaking of the building blocks of civilisation, which plunges Westeros into a sense of chaos and lawlessness. It really is becoming more and more a place where strong arms rule the world and the ones who can't protect themselves need to get out of the way...

Your words crank up my clanking brain.

Westeros is a society that is falling apart, more to the point being torn apart and the political chaos is reflected throughout society. We slowly see this process through the books from the naive idealism of the knights of summer to the violence and banditry we see in ASOS down to the broken men in AFFC.

Of course the Lannisters in pursuit of their ambitions have worked to undermine Westeros, Kingslaying, Princess and royal family murdering all of this overturns the traditional order. If a man is not true to his word then what can be relied upon? What can be trusted? We see with King Bob that even the marriage bed isn't safe from Lannister ambitions and paternity in wedlock can't be relied upon! King Bob's roving eye re-enforces the image as he isn't true either and just takes what he will.

So the old order is over turned but there isn't the creation of a new order (yet) to replace it instead the Lannisters further degrade the kingdom with no holds barred warfare.

We see Tywin bringing the Bloody Mummers over to Westeros even as he initiates war. Tywin as the ravisher of the kingdom contrasts with his twenty odd year role as Hand of Aerys II, ruling fairly and maintaining order.

[Lummel]

It strikes me that if we want to continue the mismatched theme from eyes to armour why not extend it to the fantastic four themselves - Tyrion and his bosom companions (well they don't actually share their food with him but never mind).

So we have the scion of a most noble house, an off shoot of a family of landed knights, a sellsword and a prostitute. This is Team Tyrion...

[Natalie_S]

It strikes me that if we want to continue the mismatched theme from eyes to armour why not extend it to the fantastic four themselves - Tyrion and his bosom companions (well they don't actually share their food with him but never mind).

So we have the scion of a most noble house, an off shoot of a family of landed knights, a sellsword and a prostitute. This is Team Tyrion...

Team Tyrion is actually quite cool. :D

Continuing with the food metaphor, we already have 2 failed tentatives for Tyrion to share a meal with the clansmen:

"“Come share our fire, the night is cold,” he called out to the creeping shadows. “I fear we’ve no wine to offer you, but you’re welcome to some of our goat."

And then the ox at Lannister camp.

Perhaps the fact that the meal is not ready means that this time their relationship is not mature but later Tyrion and the clansmen will eventually meet again, this time as equals?

[Natalie_S]

This is a very good way of putting it: that Joanna's death really created a hole.

Just imagine Tyrion's birthday!

TYWIN: Today is the anniversary of the day in which you torn apart your mother's uterus with your oversized head and made her bleed to death. Happy nameday.

TYRION:... :(

[Lummel]

...Perhaps the fact that the meal is not ready means that this time their relationship is not mature but later Tyrion and the clansmen will eventually meet again, this time as equals?

Don't know. I mean the two incidents balance themselves out.

First the clansmen are hungry and Tyrion invites them to join him, then it's reversed as Tyrion is hungry and is invited to join them. Looks to me as though it's resolved.

[Blisscraft]

Just imagine Tyrion's birthday!

TYWIN: Today is the anniversary of the day in which you torn apart your mother's uterus with your oversized head and made her bleed to death. Happy nameday.

TYRION:... :(

I agree. Poor Tyrion.