Rereading Tyrion II (AGOT-ACOK)

[Lummel]

... I love the Beauty and the Beast analysis in the PtP thread. As obvious as it should be I had not yet pondered the origin of the Beast aspects of the tale. In the fairy tale version we have a sin followed by a curse which results in a change of heart leading to a quest for atonement... For those who might not know, Martin wrote for the TV series Beauty and the Beast so this is a myth he has played with extensively. The origins of Tyrion's Beast is something to ponder.

Well hold on to that thought for a couple more months and that's something we can discuss in ASOS.

...I also find many parallels with the Late Lord Walder Frey. He may not have the power and connections Lannister gold and influence is capable of buying, but his motivations are clearly very similar to Tywin's...

Well then you won't be surprised that I also think of Walder Frey as being a great family man. In the sense that family is hugely important to him - as Merritt reflects as he's going off to attempt to ransom Petyr Pimple, family loyalty is important, working as a unit is important, providing for children, grandchildren and greatchildren etc is important even though they are roundly verbally abused by the old patriach.

I have to say that I still agree with Lummel's position ...

I find nothing here to disagree with! :)

...Rereading Tyrion now!

Welcome Ser Gatsby!

OK, so we have finished AGOT, any thoughts about Tyrion's chapters so far? I've been surprised by how much there is to find, some of the writing is already very dense with allusion, references, possible foreshadowing and major themes, most of which I missed entirely on my first read. Any big changes for anyone since reading ADWD?

I'm very struck by the constant presence of wolves in the chapters set in the North. It does make it seem more alien to me and distinct from the other kingdoms of westeros. I'm still hanging on to frequency of food references too even though we've had an entire three chapters without actual eating.

[evita mgfs]

Lummel,

I like what you had to say about Walder Frey. You paint him in a much better light. :bowdown:

[The Lord's Kiss]

Lummel,

I like what you had to say about Walder Frey. You paint him in a much better light. :bowdown:

Haha I think Walder cares about his family so much because those are the only people who actually respect him..

[evita mgfs]

Haha I think Walder cares about his family so much because those are the only people who actually respect him..

You just stop that, Lord's Kiss. :cool4: Lummel was getting me to have empathy for the man. I do feel a tiny bit of compassion, only because most members of his family, even the readers, can't wait to see him "Die, Die Die", to quote the Raven. :ack:

[evita mgfs]

delete

[Lummel]

Evita, doesn't all that belong in the references and Homages thread? I don't see any Tyrion connection...

[Blisscraft]

Just a couple of thoughts as we finish Tyrion's POV in GOT:

FIrst, about the food idea, Lummel. This is a significant motif, if not the food consumed, but with whom Tryion consumes the food (and drink for that matter). Your idea of companionship is represented in Tyrion's sharing food and drink. From the rare and extravagant crab feast at the Wall with Mormont et al, to the roast goat in need of some salt with Bronn, to Tywin's glass of wine. (Also, it can be contrasted with the food and drink Tyrion doesn't get to share: the roast foul at the Inn; the beans in the skycell, the roast pig before the battle).The shared food and drink defines Tyrion's relationships. This motif will only get better and better and gather more steam as Tyrion makes his journey on to KL and beyond.

Second, Lyanna Stark's idea about the Beauty and the Beast motif. Even before I knew Martin was involved with the TV show (which I confess I never watched), I noticed this as well. Another fairy tale reference that comes to mind along with Beauty and the Beast is Snow White and the Seven Dwarves. Tyrion, a dwarf, (obvioiusly) assists a beautiful young girl rescued from evil (Tysha; although, Tyrion isn't enough of a man to save her from himself or the wrath of Tywin) or evil Queen (Sansa; we'll soon see how this works out). Tyrion is presented in such a well rounded way that there needs not be seven to make a whole person, only one with seven aspects (sound familiar?).

FInally, Fathers and Mothers: Tywin is the overbearing, soul devouring, Mythic Father, a Holdfast, or ME Dragon acquiring more and more possessions and when attacked, raising everything to the ground; sowing salt into the soil until nothing can take hold again for generations. Also, Tywin is consuming all of his children, one by one. Someone needs to split him open with an axe (or crossbow). As for Tyrion's mother; he was the death of her, much to his guilt and his family's resentment.

I'll stop and let others (not the Others) chime in. Such a fantastic reread so far! Thank you.

[evita mgfs]

So sorry. I didn't think we were allowed to post ideas not in future books, and I thought others referencing Gatsby on this thread might use an idea as a springboard. But I will remov it. So sorry! :dunno:

As I said, I am learning! :crying:

[Lummel]

...Second, Lyanna Stark's idea about the Beauty and the Beast motif. Even before I knew Martin was involved with the TV show (which I confess I never watched), I noticed this as well. Another fairy tale reference that comes to mind along with Beauty and the Beast is Snow White and the Seven Dwarves. Tyrion, a dwarf, (obvioiusly) beautiful young girl rescued from evil (Tysha; although, Tyrion isn't enough of a man to save her from himself or the wrath of Tywin) or evil Queen (Sansa; we'll soon see how this works out). Tyrion is presented in such a well rounded way that there needs not be seven to make a whole person, only one with seven aspects (sound familiar?)...

Snow Sansa and the One Dwarf with the seven moods! :) excellent.

So sorry. I didn't think we were allowed to post ideas not in future books, and I thought others referencing Gatsby on this thread might use an idea as a springboard. But I will remov it. So sorry! :dunno:

As I said, I am learning! :crying:

No, you're welcome to post, I just don't see the relevance, if Gatsby is relevant to Tyrion, ETA in your opinion, great. If not I don't see the point.

[Blisscraft]

What are the seven dwarves names, anyway? Sleepy, Grumpy, Dopey. . . Doc?

[Natalie_S]

What are the seven dwarves names, anyway? Sleepy, Grumpy, Dopey. . . Doc?

I remember also Sneezy, but it doesn't work, Tyrion has an excellent immunitary system! :P

[anonymouseuser]

Well then you won't be surprised that I also think of Walder Frey as being a great family man. In the sense that family is hugely important to him - as Merritt reflects as he's going off to attempt to ransom Petyr Pimple, family loyalty is important, working as a unit is important, providing for children, grandchildren and greatchildren etc is important even though they are roundly verbally abused by the old patriach.

And I hope you won't be surprised to know that I think of Walder Frey as a man who is terrified by death and keeps it at bay by marrying children and getting more children on them.. It's clear by his interaction with Catelyn at the Red Wedding that he has no actual interest in his children and grandchildren as anything other than extensions of himself and pawns to be used or disposed of as he sees fit. I think the best thing we can do is agree to disagree. Your interpretation of what constitutes family values and mine are clearly very different.

[Lummel]

I am not claiming that Tywin or Walder Frey represent my family values, or are model patriarchs from my point view :) But clearly our opinions differ and we're not going to change one another's minds here! We agree to disagree.

[Blisscraft]

I remember also Sneezy, but it doesn't work, Tyrion has an excellent immunitary system! :P

He does recover very quickly from his wounds, doesn't he!?!

[evita mgfs]

Snow Sansa and the One Dwarf with the seven moods! :) excellent.

No, you're welcome to post, I just don't see the relevance, if Gatsby is relevant to Tyrion, ETA in your opinion, great. If not I don't see the point.

But I purposely left out the references to Tyrion and those in his future POV's because I did not think we were to post future events. I just want you to understand my err was not intentionally made :crying: - yes?

Friends? :bowdown:

I color coded my post for the first POV of Tyrion in ACoK just for you! :devil:

I saw a post regarding color coding - you set an example. Maybe I better check before I post that? Is it allowed? :dunno:

[Lyanna Stark]

<snipped>

I'll stop and let others (not the Others) chime in. Such a fantastic reread so far! Thank you.

Brilliant summary Blisscraft. I think you captured the main themes we have seen in Tyrion's arc so far.

We also have the triangle Tysha - Tyrion - Shae, which is difficult to describe in AGOT since it's only really in its infancy and gets into full swing during ACOK. But already here we have seen the transactional nature of Tyrion's "relationships" and that Tywin inflicting the Tysha incident on him made him scarred for life when it comes to love, and especially a woman's love. Combined with the complete lack of a mother figure or a mother's unconditional love, Tyrion has this hole inside him which he cannot seem to fill. But he tries to fill it with bought affection. But as this is more of a fledgling theme, more about it in ACOK!

[Natalie_S]

He does recover very quickly from his wounds, doesn't he!?!

Yes!

Also, beside not getting greyscale or the pale mare, he travels in very harsh climates (extremely hot/freezing cold) passing from very hot to very cold environments and never catches a cold or a flu. Also, he eats a lot of elaborate food and seems to digest anything without problems, and is surprisingly healthy considering the unbalanced diet of Westeros.

[Blisscraft]

Thank you, Lyanna Stark. Joanna Lannister's absence is powerful.

Also, could Jon Snow be a Snow White to Tyrion's dwarf? (Just kidding). :drunk:

[Lummel]

But I purposely left out the references to Tyrion and those in his future POV's because I did not think we were to post future events. I just want you to understand my err was not intentionally made :crying: - yes?

Friends? :bowdown:

I color coded my post for the first POV of Tyrion in ACoK just for you! :devil:

I saw a post regarding color coding - you set an example. Maybe I better check before I post that? Is it allowed? :dunno:

Now I really don't understand. The only thing that I have ever said about colour coding on this forum is that I've put coloured tabs in my ASOIAF books to mark chapter beginnings. I'm totally lost here :dunno: .

The business about posting about future events is simply that we don't want people to write entire posts about, for instance the battle of the blackwater, or to have an ongoing discussion about the battle of the blackwater before we get to that point in the reread. But of course you can mention that it's going to happen, and if you see a foreshadowing or a parallel then yes post about that.

If you can see parallels to another story - great, post about it, but if you leave out how it relates to Tyrion then how can we discuss it here? If, for example, you see that the Joffrey Wedding feast is modelled on Gatsby party - that's fantastic and we'd love to hear about it, but preferably when we get to that part of the reread :) .

[Lummel]

...Also, could Jon Snow be a Snow White to Tyrion's dwarf? (Just kidding). :drunk:

:laugh: Excellent! But who is going to be the handsome prince who kisses him awake :uhoh:

So a few fairy tale references then?

Snow White and the Dwarf (upcoming), Beauty and the Beast (upcoming), also interesting comparison here between Tyrion and Alberich from the Nibelungen, if anybody is familiar enough with the saga, or the medieval poem or the Wagner Opera (s) that might be something to discuss. (In addition to everything else)