Prejudice explored through Tyrion

[Lummel]

...If Sansa was given to Jaime or Loras or Willas or any other highborn lord Cat wouldn't be as frustrated as she was when she found that Sansa married Tyrion. I can't blame her. For her Tyrion is a sneaky manipulative Lannister and a whoremonger. She couldn't have possibly known that he was the only one to defend Sansa from Joffrey, apart from Sandor, and he didn't slept with her.

There's a similar moment in a Sansa chapter in ASOS when Lysa asks if she is a virgin. Sansa says that Tyrion used whores and Lysa's response is something like 'of course he would!' - as though that was an inevitable consequence of dwarfism. So much prejudice in so few words!

It's such a revealing exchange with Penny, when Ser Jorah hits Tyrion in the face. Penny tells him you must never provoke the big people, because they can hurt you, yet up till that point, it would not have occurred to Tyrion that anyone apart from his father, or his political enemies, could lay a finger on him.

yes, although there's no suggestion that Tywin ever laid a finger on Tyrion. That violence comes as a shock, unlike the earlier scene in the Eyrie when Mord hits him (Tyrion V AGOT) with Mormont there is no way out, no appeal to Lannister power or game that he can play that can save him from this other man being able to abuse him purely because he is bigger and stronger.

I think a dwarf that Brienne meets is another juxtaposition with Tyrion. He has the same issue of being "mishapen" dwarf, also dirt poor, but he seems sincere, kind and thoughtful. I immediately felt certain trust towards character, together with Brienne. Not sure what I'd think of Tyrion if I'd met him...

Yes that Septon is a nice character, top tip - if you meet with Tyrion avoid drinking wine with him or going for a walk with Bronn in the direction of those places that sell bowls of brown!

[FanTasy]

Nobody "deserves" love, that's where Nice Guys TM come from. Or rather, they deserve it but not entitled to it. Tyrion doesn't have to love anyone (but he should see everyone as human beings, even if they are ugly women or hot chicks who do not dig him), and others don't have to love him if they don't, no matter how great he can be (or not).

(snip)

O dear ...

ETA This needs some clarification, I don't mean to hit on you or at what you've said.

I do think everyone 'deserves' love. We all want to be loved, it is a psychological need we all have.

Thinking or experiencing not being loved can make people into cruel and hard people (as may be the case with Stannis).

If someone is truly evil he can forfeit that he deserves to be loved.

But of course how someone is on the outside has nothing to do with this.

[David Selig]

I often wondered how much of Tyrion's greyness judged on this board is defined by him being a dwarf. Would he be judged differently if he was not a 'halfman' (to use this horrible, horrible and disturbing term)?

This would mean that the favourite excuse and justification of his fans would be gone - "Sure, he committed this crime (or said this terrible thing, etc), but see, he was mistreated his whole life for being a dwarf, so it's understandable, and not that bad really".

[the Scorpion Knight]

I think the problem with tyrion is in dire need of SEVERAL truth bombs

[FanTasy]

This would mean that the favourite excuse and justification of his fans would be gone - "Sure, he committed this crime (or said this terrible thing, etc), but see, he was mistreated his whole life for being a dwarf, so it's understandable, and not that bad really".

Quite.That's exactly what I meant.

It works both ways: to see him as more grey and to see him as less. Beauty as well as evilness are often seen in the eyes of the beholder. And that's where prejudice resides :frown5:

[Natalie_S]

Nobody "deserves" love, that's where Nice Guys TM come from. Or rather, they deserve it but not entitled to it. Tyrion doesn't have to love anyone (but he should see everyone as human beings, even if they are ugly women or hot chicks who do not dig him), and others don't have to love him if they don't, no matter how great he can be (or not).

My mom's saying stuck with me "If you want somebody to love you so much, why don't you try loving someone yourself for a change?" Interestingly, a person that Tyrion loves loves him back - Jaime (or Tysha). He gives a bit of genuine kindness to Podrick and he's incredibly loyal. Penny loves him quite a lot I am sure. His obsession with Shae is not love in any shape of form.

In Westeros, there are always people who need help and protection. Some, though not all, will love you back. Tyrion, for all his complaints, seems more concentrated on gaining power, which in itself is fine.

And I don't find any example of him treating people not like human beings....?!

He's not attracted to Penny but he comforts her, protects her, takes care of her in every way he can.

I presume that with "the hot chick that doesn't dig him" you're referring to Sansa, and he's concerned about her wellbeing, trying to shelter her from the ugliness of the war as much as he can and defying his own father refusing to consummate the marriage seeing that she's unwilling.

I see that many times on this board Lollys Stokeworth is mentioned, and yet there's not a single episode in the series in which he treats her unpolitely (in fact they never even interact!!) but presumably he was amiable enough to her family, since Lady Tanda kept inviting him to dinner and considering him a possible son-in-law.

And yet the fact that he dares not to fall in love with people that he finds unattractive seems unacceptable and even hypocrite to some posters, because the character refuses to fall in the "ugly with ugly" stereotype.

[Danelle]

There's a similar moment in a Sansa chapter in ASOS when Lysa asks if she is a virgin. Sansa says that Tyrion used whores and Lysa's response is something like 'of course he would!' - as though that was an inevitable consequence of dwarfism. So much prejudice in so few words!

I think you are referring to this

"Was the dwarf incapable?"

"No. He was only . . . he was . . . " Kind? She could not say that, not here, not to this aunt who hated him so. "He . . . he had whores, my lady. He told me so."

"Whores." Lysa released her wrist. "Of course he did. What woman would bed such a creature, but for gold? I should have killed the Imp when he was in my power, but he tricked me. He is full of low cunning, that one. His sellsword slew my good Ser Vardis Egen. Catelyn should not have brought him here, I told her that. She made off with our uncle too. That was wrong of her. The Blackfish was my Knight of the Gate, and since he left us the mountain clans are growing very bold. Petyr will soon set all that to rights, though. I shall make him Lord Protector of the Vale." Her aunt smiled for the first time, almost warmly. "He may not look as tall or strong as some, but he is worth more than all of them. Trust in him and do as he says."

I don't know if that is relevant or not but Tyrion in his pov he wants Sansa to love him, not to kiss him or make love to him but to love him. In a way Tyrion is a reversal of the dwarf archetype as it was introduced in Nibelungen:

• Both Tyrion and Alberich are dwarves
  
• Both of them are wealthy, Alberich has the gold mines and Tyrion the gold of CR
  
• Alberich was scorned by the Rhinemaidens and Tywin could not find a highborn bride for Tyrion
  
• Both of them are bitter and decided to focus on their wealth
  

But Alberich steals the gold of Rhine because he denounces love and manages to find a greedy woman to bear his child. Tyrion, no matter what, never manages to denounce love. Cersei tells Sansa that all her little brother wants is to be loved but mostly due to his shape Tyrion can never get away. Think of pretty boy Loras who killed Renly's guards because he was angry. The knight of flowers is loved no matter what because he is handsome. Tyrion Lannister though....

[FanTasy]

I think you are referring to this

I don't know if that is relevant or not but Tyrion in his pov he wants Sansa to love him, not to kiss him or make love to him but to love him. In a way Tyrion is a reversal of the dwarf archetype as it was introduced in Nibelungen:

• Both Tyrion and Alberich are dwarves
  
• Both of them are wealthy, Alberich has the gold mines and Tyrion the gold of CR
  
• Alberich was scorned by the Rhinemaidens and Tywin could not find a highborn bride for Tyrion
  
• Both of them are bitter and decided to focus on their wealth
  

But Alberich steals the gold of Rhine because he denounces love and manages to find a greedy woman to bear his child. Tyrion, no matter what, never manages to denounce love. Cersei tells Sansa that all her little brother wants is to be loved but mostly due to his shape Tyrion can never get away. Think of pretty boy Loras who killed Renly's guards because he was angry. The knight of flowers is loved no matter what because he is handsome. Tyrion Lannister though....

Splendid post, kudo's.

I tend to hear Alberich muttering and cursing, when I read Tyrion's chapters, and yes, if he becomes what he wants to be, Lord of Casterly Rock, he may have to find a woman greedy enough to carry his child :devil:

[Lummel]

...I don't know if that is relevant or not but Tyrion in his pov he wants Sansa to love him, not to kiss him or make love to him but to love him. In a way Tyrion is a reversal of the dwarf archetype as it was introduced in Nibelungen:

• Both Tyrion and Alberich are dwarves
  
• Both of them are wealthy, Alberich has the gold mines and Tyrion the gold of CR
  
• Alberich was scorned by the Rhinemaidens and Tywin could not find a highborn bride for Tyrion
  
• Both of them are bitter and decided to focus on their wealth
  

But Alberich steals the gold of Rhine because he denounces love and manages to find a greedy woman to bear his child. Tyrion, no matter what, never manages to denounce love. Cersei tells Sansa that all her little brother wants is to be loved but mostly due to his shape Tyrion can never get away. Think of pretty boy Loras who killed Renly's guards because he was angry. The knight of flowers is loved no matter what because he is handsome. Tyrion Lannister though....

Good comparison! Aren't the brothers torn apart by their greed and desire for the horde?

[Natalie_S]

Great post Danelle!!

By the way, I was also thinking about another "unreliable narrator" question.

Tyrion is persuaded that if he had been born a peasant, he would have been killed at birth or sold to slavery. No doubt that what was he was told for a longtime.

But I wonder, is that really true?

We've met quite a lot of smallfolk people affected by dwarfism and the all seem to deal with their condition much better than Tyrion: we have the Septon that Brienne meets, Penny, her brother and her father, and she mentions a Tyroshi juggler, and none of them seem to attribute to their size the reason for their problems.

It's also interesting to note that Penny's father was married to an average-size woman, so apparently low-born women seem to have less prejudice towards disability: in fact, Tyrion himself seems to get along much better with people who aren't gentle born (Jon, who is bastard born, Bronn, Varys, Duck, the Half-Maester, Vogorro's wife in Volantis, Septa Lemore, Penny etc...).

[the Scorpion Knight]

Good comparison! Aren't the brothers torn apart by their greed and desire for the horde?

funny side note jaime doesn't want and tyrion won't get the rock

[Woman of War]

I think the character Tyrion is difficult for some readers to swallow because he is not the compliant cripple who willingly accepts his fate, cleansed and uplifted by his suffering. No, he does not have the wisdom to see that some things just are not for people like him, that he is not supposed to be the hero of his own story, that his is the role of the supporting buffo character, or if he is lucky, the best friend who lets the true hero shine and leaves " the girl" to those who have the attributes a hero needs.

No, Tyrion fights back, he lashes out, is mischieveous where the politically correct cripple in today's books has a heart of gold. He is egocentric where a cripple satisfying modern readers' wellbeing would always glad to sacrifice his own happiness for the greater good of political correctness. Martin refuses to write the Uncle Tom cripple in Tyrion. He has invented a character who wants the whole life, who wants recognition, respect and love in all its aspects. And it is imo meant as deliberate provocation of Martin's readers that the character of a so very ugly and malformed person is explicitely linked with sex and sexual desire, eww, a dwarf like THAT expects to be touched by "normal" women - and worse, he has the audacity not to give up his wish that there might be one for him who WANTS to touch and to love him.

It is this appetite for life against all odds that attracts me so very much to the character Tyrion.

[SeanF]

It is this appetite for life against all odds that attracts me so very much to the character Tyrion.

The appetite for life, at all costs, is summed up when he and Jaime are talking about Bran's fate as a cripple, and Jaime says it would be better to die than live as a grotesque;

"Speaking for the grotesques, I beg to differ. Death is so very final, yet life is full of possibilities."

[Kosh Naranek]

The one thing that "killed" Tyrion for me appeared in Dance. (He may be able to redeem himself, but I was apalled.) He raped that sex worker with no remorse.

In that moment he looked at someone and carried out an act that would be scarring for his personal gratification.

I forgave him the singer (somewhat) because the man was a blackmailer and must have known on the fringes of his mind that death could be the outcome.

This was not a life and death situation. He consciously decided to brutalize another human being.

In that moment he could have been 6 ft tall and beautiful or 2 ft tall and pea green. His appearance mattered not one jot. It is the frame of mind, the soul that mattered, and the soul I saw was twisted.

[Cruella]

And I don't find any example of him treating people not like human beings....?!

Like when he sees a sex slave, and when she has the gall not to look upset when he says he won't fuck her (that horrible bitch!), he proceeds to tell her that he will rape her and strangle her, gleefully pointing out that Illyrio won't care? He's pleased to see fear on her face. I can only imagine what pleasant hours she had spent until their guest was gone, wondering if any moment he'll come to kill her.

He doesn't see a woman who is dehumanized in another way. She's not a cripple or a bastard, she's an attractive woman, and he sees a symbol of everything he's denied rather than a person.

Or when he goes to some poor, traumatized slave girl with scars on her back, sees disgust on her face, rapes her, vomits in her room (well, that's not his fault). She cries and says she'll be punished. He doesn't give a shit. He rapes her again.

But poor Tyrion, hot chicks don't dig him.

ETA: it's ok to wish for better life. Don't we all? But when your pain blinds you to pain of others and make you self-involved, it's not ok.

Good strong people can feel sorry for themselves and lament their life. However, even when they are in pain, they can set it aside to pay attention to those who are weaker, helpless, like children. Tyrion can even sometimes do that. Other times, he's too busy feeling sorry for himself.

[Natalie_S]

I think the character Tyrion is difficult for some readers to swallow because he is not the compliant cripple who willingly accepts his fate, cleansed and uplifted by his suffering. No, he does not have the wisdom to see that some things just are not for people like him, that he is not supposed to be the hero of his own story, that his is the role of the supporting buffo character, or if he is lucky, the best friend who lets the true hero shine and leaves " the girl" to those who have the attributes a hero needs.

No, Tyrion fights back, he lashes out, is mischieveous where the politically correct cripple in today's books has a heart of gold. He is egocentric where a cripple satisfying modern readers' wellbeing would always glad to sacrifice his own happiness for the greater good of political correctness. Martin refuses to write the Uncle Tom cripple in Tyrion. He has invented a character who wants the whole life, who wants recognition, respect and love in all its aspects. And it is imo meant as deliberate provocation of Martin's readers that the character of a so very ugly and malformed person is explicitely linked with sex and sexual desire, eww, a dwarf like THAT expects to be touched by "normal" women - and worse, he has the audacity not to give up his wish that there might be one for him who WANTS to touch and to love him.

It is this appetite for life against all odds that attracts me so very much to the character Tyrion.

:agree: :agree: :agree: :agree: :agree:

THIS! This so much! It's exactly what I meant.

Like when he sees a sex slave, and when she has the gall not to look upset when he says he won't fuck her (that horrible bitch!), he proceeds to tell her that he will rape her and strangle her, gleefully pointing out that Illyrio won't care? He's pleased to see fear on her face. I can only imagine what pleasant hours she had spent until their guest was gone, wondering if any moment he'll come to kill her.

He doesn't see a woman who is dehumanized in another way. She's not a cripple or a bastard, she's an attractive woman, and he sees a symbol of everything he's denied rather than a person.

Or when he goes to some poor, traumatized slave girl with scars on her back, sees disgust on her face, rapes her, vomits in her room (well, that's not his fault). She cries and says she'll be punished. He doesn't give a shit. He rapes her again.

But poor Tyrion, hot chicks don't dig him.

First of all, I don't think that having sex with a sex worker qualifies as rape.

Secondly, I'm not saying that Tyrion doesn't behave as an asshole in ADWD, because he's at his lowest point from every point of view. And I'm sorry, but I still think that it's at least understandable.

By the end of ASOS he faced the betrayal of all his family, discovered that basically all the people that knew him hated him and were willing to lie in court to have him killed, was sentenced to death, discovered that the guilt that he carried half his life for what happened to a girl is actually even worse than he thought, discovered that the only person that he had ever trusted (his brother) was part of the lie that brought him to lose his love, and eventually killed 2 people.

I believe that now he'd be at least diagnosed with Post Traumatic Stress, depression (he contemplates suicide several times) or something like this.

He's convinced that since everyone is determined to make him a monster, he might as well be one and try to enjoy it. Except that it doesn't work.

I just don't understand how some posters can draw conclusions on Tyrion's personality basing on episodes when he's in a deep depression and blatantly ignore all the others that are much more significant (and many!) when he shows respect, affection, admiration or friendship for women. But no, since he said something rude to a girl and he has sex with prostitues he must be a monster.

"Good strong people", as you say, maybe are unaffected by shock, disappointment, depression or perhaps trouble make them even holier.

But I don't want to read a book about those people: it would be boring, dull and completely fake. I want to read about characters that are flawed, that make mistakes, that say harsh things that don't mean, that take things personally even if sometimes there's no point, that are capable of behaving like a total asshole and to make great acts of kindness.

In short, I want to read about human beings, not cardboards.

[David Selig]

It's not like Tyrion wasn't a terrible person committing terrible acts long before the end of ASOS. Does the name Symon ring a bell? What about organising the burning alive of thousands to keep an illegitimate psychopath on the throne? Or his plan to turn the Vale into "a smoking wasteland" because he was mad at Lysa Arryn.

[Natalie_S]

It's not like Tyrion wasn't a terrible person committing terrible acts long before the end of ASOS. Does the name Symon ring a bell? What about organising the burning alive of thousands to keep an illegitimate psychopath on the throne? Or his plan to turn the Vale into "a smoking wasteland" because he was mad at Lysa Arryn.

That's called war.

And it's the game of thrones, you win or you die.

Honestly, I can't see how you expect some character to live in Martinworld, actually doing stuff and not being constantly the victim, without committing some kind of morally grey action and to be believable.

I mean... how do you even like the books? :dunno: That's no "little house in the prairie", if that's what you want in literature, I'm afraid that's the wrong place.

[Lummel]

...It is this appetite for life against all odds that attracts me so very much to the character Tyrion.

nicely put :thumbsup:

...In that moment he looked at someone and carried out an act that would be scarring for his personal gratification...

Like when he sees a sex slave, and when she has the gall not to look upset when he says he won't fuck her (that horrible bitch!), he proceeds to tell her that he will rape her and strangle her, gleefully pointing out that Illyrio won't care? He's pleased to see fear on her face. I can only imagine what pleasant hours she had spent until their guest was gone, wondering if any moment he'll come to kill her.

He doesn't see a woman who is dehumanized in another way. She's not a cripple or a bastard, she's an attractive woman, and he sees a symbol of everything he's denied rather than a person.

Or when he goes to some poor, traumatized slave girl with scars on her back, sees disgust on her face, rapes her, vomits in her room (well, that's not his fault). She cries and says she'll be punished. He doesn't give a shit. He rapes her again...

We see these incidents through his POV, so the element of disgust and horror also comes from him and how he looks at his own actions. There's a parallel there with Jaime throwing Bran out the window. It's a terrible thing to do, but it's personally expedient so he does it anyway. Tyrion wants sex, so he forces himself on the (supposed?) prostitute even though she is 'like a corpse' as she lies there.

Tyrion is in the grey zone, like all the other surviving POV characters. He's always been in the grey zone, it just becomes more obvious as the series progresses.

Anyhow what's this got to do with prejudice? I suppose that he's not a monster but a man, which is to say a creature capable of being monstrous.

[Silverin]

"Good strong people", as you say, maybe are unaffected by shock, disappointment, depression or perhaps trouble make them even holier.

But I don't want to read a book about those people: it would be boring, dull and completely fake. I want to read about characters that are flawed, that make mistakes, that say harsh things that don't mean, that take things personally even if sometimes there's no point, that are capable of behaving like a total asshole and to make great acts of kindness.

In short, I want to read about human beings, not cardboards.

I know a lot of people who had far worse life than tyrion. I come from a country with a kinda bloody history you see. Among my relatives there were people who were horribly torured, had to deal with genetic sicknesses, one of my second cousin was born with an ugly deformation on her face, and has to live her life with prejuctice and glaring people at her the whole life (similar life than tyrion, exept not that rich and girl, yet she is really nice, already married and a mom, and very happy, I guess that makes her fake and boring no? It would be much "real" if she would start taking drugs, smashing cars, and being a general asshole right? ) , then of course there was war and many other things as well in my family history. And I know people, who had no family, not even the small dysfunctional that tyrion has. ANd I could go on and on.

None of them fall as low as tyrion. They didn't lash out on other people because of their own insecurities and selfpity the way tyrion did in ADwD. (sometimes they did say ajerkish things) Maybe that is why I can't dismiss tyrion's actions as easily as others. I know people who had way worse life, yet still choose a different path. So I have no idea where are you coming with the fake thing, because people who do not let these bad experences define them are very much real and not at alll boring. So I take offense on the idea that if someone with an abusive father doesn't turn into an abuser themelf then that person must be boring and fake.

It is one thing to have personal flaws, and another to actually hurt others.

On tyrion, he is an iteresting character but isn't bameless. In AGoT and in later books he is already an adult responsile for his own choices and thus mistakes as well. And since I don'T think he is a weak character, I hold him responsible for his actions and choices. He is not a baby. Saying that just because he is a dwarf and horrible childhood when he does something is less of a crime than when other person does that is saying the exact thing he hates others to think about him. Since it is usually children or who are excused saying they still don'T know, they are still easy to manipulate etc... Saying that tyrion is less responsible for his actions because of his history or because he is a dwarf is actually seeing him as a weak helpless child or anyway as less than any other adult who would held fully responsible for their actions. And tyrion hates being treated as a child with pity. Again tyrion is not a kid. He is already an adult.

EDIT:

First of all, I don't think that having sex with a sex worker qualifies as rape.

First didn't want to comment because don'T want to get ino this deabete again. But she was not a sex worker, she was a slave, with scarrs on her body. Do you know who else was thaught how to "please the customers" in a similar way? Jeyne Poole. Do you mean that Ramsay didn'T rape her either? Good to know, lets tell her that, maybe she won'T have any nightmares about it.