Team_Rob Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 Just before Jon is stabbed, Wun Wun is going nuts the same way Hodor did just before Bran warged into him and the woman in the prologue chapter of ADWD. Maybe Bran knew that the Others are about to attack the wall, and he wants to warn Jon or help in the fighting. Wun Wun's reaction is consistant with the symptoms of a person being warged. Or maybe.... Maybe its Pathface. Mel has her reservations about the prophetic fool. I think there is something sinister about Patchface that has yet to be revealed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redriver Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 Not technically impossible,by any means.Though I'd like to think the giant was just defending Val. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liam DarkStark Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 I find this very unlikely. I think ther would of been a hint if this was the case. Wun wun was acting like wun wun not hodor. Jon said when he is angry or scared he lashes out. So by protecting val he got cut and freaked out. I'm not saying its impossible. I just doubt it. Warging into a giant would take a hell of a strong warg. Hodor is a special case because he is not all there in the head. So he is easier to over take mentally. Granted the giants aren't geniuses but I feel that as their own race they control their own bodies very well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Team_Rob Posted October 12, 2012 Author Share Posted October 12, 2012 Bran is even more powerfull than Bloodraven thought. BR was sure that nobody could here Bran speak through the weirwoods, but Theon heard him say his name. Ned heard him as well, but It wasn't as obvious and audible as it was with Theon. I'm guessing it works better in realtime. That would prevent Bran causing a paradox. This big a differance in power would lend toward the possibility of Bran being strong enough to warg Wun Wun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lummel Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 Why would Bran want to warg Wun Wun? He would even have been able to talk directly to Jon. What would have been the point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liam DarkStark Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 Maybe I still doubt it happened...he is a different species he is bane of the singers. So I don't know if warging him would be the same as warging another human. Granted its a very very interesting idea... for bran to become a giant. But I think him warging hodor is enough abomination for bran, I think it was stated the old gods frown upon stealing another's body. Animals are different especially with the unity like the direwolves. So I just don't know how warging into a giant would go over. But it wasn't random that he fliped out as it would be if bran just warged into him. But I think he got spooked from the fight. His own blood made him geek out the dumb knight was trying to steal val. I think if bran were warging him it would of been random and random people would of gotten hurt rather than just the idiot theif in the night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liam DarkStark Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 Why would Bran want to warg Wun Wun? He would even have been able to talk directly to Jon. What would have been the point?Helping jon agains his foes, I see the reasons for it. I just don't find it plausable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lummel Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 What foes? Those foes only come to light after wun wun is busy killing ser patrek. Before that Wun Wun was happily doing what Jon wanted anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Tall Talker Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 If Bran was trying to warn Jon of the Others why wouldn't he just warg into Mormonts Raven? The Bird can talk for starters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brut Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 What foes? Those foes only come to light after wun wun is busy killing ser patrek. Before that Wun Wun was happily doing what Jon wanted anyway.Are we forgetting that Bran is not just a warg/skinchanger, but also is becoming a greenseer? IF he were to see threat in Jon's future, his natural act would be to assist him in the present. Emmet Brown, anyone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redriver Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 Excuse me,just doing the eight here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liam DarkStark Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 What foes? Those foes only come to light after wun wun is busy killing ser patrek. Before that Wun Wun was happily doing what Jon wanted anyway.Are you kidding The whole entire book was hinted with daggers in the dark. Jon knew he had enemies especially in the watch. Over half the watch disagreed with jon and what he was doing. If you missed that than you weren't reading the story correctly. Jon had emeies everywhere not just alliser thorne and janos slynt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lummel Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 Are we forgetting that Bran is not just a warg/skinchanger, but also is becoming a greenseer? IF he were to see threat in Jon's future, his natural act would be to assist him in the present. Emmet Brown, anyone?Are you kidding The whole entire book was hinted with daggers in the dark. Jon knew he had enemies especially in the watch. Over half the watch disagreed with jon and what he was doing. If you missed that than you weren't reading the story correctly. Jon had emeies everywhere not just alliser thorne and janos slynt.Fine, but how is warging into Wun Wun going to help Jon?It's not giant strength that Jon needs. There are people enough who support him. (and the half watch disagreeing is debatable, the only suggestion of the numbers involved is over the question of whether the wall should be sealed or not).If Bran wants to give a warning Wun Wun is poor choice - he speaks old tongue and Leathers seems to be the only interpreter. Why try and communicate through Wun Wun when we saw in ACOK that Bran could communicate directly with Jon?Indeed Mormont's Raven gives plenty of odd, if obscure warnings that Jon notices in his POV. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brut Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 Fine, but how is warging into Wun Wun going to help Jon?It's not giant strength that Jon needs. There are people enough who support him. (and the half watch disagreeing is debatable, the only suggestion of the numbers involved is over the question of whether the wall should be sealed or not).If Bran wants to give a warning Wun Wun is poor choice - he speaks old tongue and Leathers seems to be the only interpreter. Why try and communicate through Wun Wun when we saw in ACOK that Bran could communicate directly with Jon?Indeed Mormont's Raven gives plenty of odd, if obscure warnings that Jon notices in his POV.Lets see. My thinking would be based on several hypothesis:Bran remembers how Osha refers to Hodor having "giant's blood" in him. Therefore, he may assume that warging a giant in the given situation is the most pragmatic way of assisting Jon. On the other side, taking over a crow would not take him anywhere. Warging a human being may be challenging as we saw (and as probably he saw). Ghost may be either challenging or impossible as Ghost is nowhere to be seen. Ultimately, Bran would probably want to be more - shall we say - physical when seeing his brother being stabbed. For example, he may need someone to protect Jon after he is stabbed. Or, he may need someone to protect Ghost. Bran is also unaware of what level of support the NW provides to Jon. They are the ones stabbing him, and they are also the ones killing the LC before Jon. There are trust issues in the NW, so he cannot simply let the event flow without involvement. Finally, while we do assume that WW attacked the starry knight because he was protecting Val, but the question is: why did this happen EXACTLY at the same time as Jon was attacked? The event is too big for a horny knight trying to get some sexy times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hotweaselsoup Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 Lets see. My thinking would be based on several hypothesis:Bran remembers how Osha refers to Hodor having "giant's blood" in him. Therefore, he may assume that warging a giant in the given situation is the most pragmatic way of assisting Jon. If Bran is warging Wun Wun (which I don't believe he is), the most pragmatic way of assisting Jon would be to have Wun Wun rip off Bowen Marsh's arms, not silly Ser Patrek's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lummel Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 ... Ultimately, Bran would probably want to be more - shall we say - physical when seeing his brother being stabbed. For example, he may need someone to protect Jon after he is stabbed. Or, he may need someone to protect Ghost. Bran is also unaware of what level of support the NW provides to Jon. They are the ones stabbing him, and they are also the ones killing the LC before Jon. There are trust issues in the NW, so he cannot simply let the event flow without involvement. Finally, while we do assume that WW attacked the starry knight because he was protecting Val, but the question is: why did this happen EXACTLY at the same time as Jon was attacked? The event is too big for a horny knight trying to get some sexy times.But Wun Wun is ripping Ser Patrek apart before Jon gets stabbed and once Jon gets stabbed he disappears from the narrative. Warging therefore would only work if Bran wanted to precipitate some kind of reaction by ripping Ser Patrek apart.Had the story been different and Wun Wun had strode over to swat Jon's attackers aside and defend Jon then fair enough you could argue that he had been warged by Bran if you wanted to. But in this case the suggestion just raises more questions. Why does Bran want to killed random southeron knight but not want to help his brother Jon?Your second point is a bit odd to my mind. Ser Patrek attempts to seize Val. This is actually exactly what Jon has said that Ser patrek would need to do to win Val in the beginning of Jon XIII. However we also know that Jon has told Val that Wun Wun sleeps in the bottom of the tower, and Val specifically refers to having a giant as a protector as something special. Then it's because Wun Wun is busy killing Ser patrek that Jon happens to be standing out in the open, exposed and unprotected. It's that circumstance that Marsh and co take advantage of, not that Jon is stabbed then wun wun starts to kill Ser Patrek.In other words Jon's words precipitated Ser Patrek's action, the circumstance of which allowed the assassins to strike. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brut Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 Point is, this is the first time WW was warged, so obviously he resisted Bran. Such internal struggle may have been interpreted as hostile, so Ser Patrek moved in to neutralize WW. OR, what if the Knight was actually tasked by the Queen to assist Marsh in the attempt on Jon (with the promise of quite tangible reward - Val, for example), and was actually blocking the way for WW to get to Jon BEFORE the latter was stabbed? Clearly, the NW brothers were not acting alone in their decision to off with Jon, and with the great level of confidence we can assume that Queen's men were involved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lummel Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 I am not aware of any support in the text for the Queen's men being involved in the assassination. So I don't share your confidence. The order of events at Jon's assassination is straight-forward and makes sense. Involving Bran in trying to warg Wun Wun just makes it more complex and doesn't make sense. It just confuses the picture.If you were one of the queensmen and you wanted to assassinate Jon wouldn't you kill him somewhere in private and then try to blame the death on the wildlings? You would have to be quite an idiot to attack him in daylight in an open space - what better way to unite the Night's Watch and the wildlings against the Queensmen! At least Marsh and co are desperate, the queensman would have no such excuse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flinky Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 Wun Wun hates bare steel and it was said before that he loved wine. Drunk giant is pretty plausable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evita mgfs Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 Yes, I have pointed out that Wun Wun is drunk; it had been shot down as well. Now, I don't shoot people down unless they say something offensive. Everybody's opinion is as good as anyone elses. Besides, if I don't shoot an idea I don't like down, I can be sure someone else will. I guess it is the nature of he game. Threads only get interesting when the arguing starts. Just like reality tv.I think everyone has well-argued posts here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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