From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa XIV

[Devaki Khanna]

Sooo far behind...

I have a bit of a different take on Tyrion during his marriage to Sansa. First, I fall firmly in the camp that holds Tywin has zero interest in a Lannister claim to the North. If he did he could have married Sansa himself. He could have announced a betrothal to Lancel to stop the Tyrells from taking her and then waited to see how the Northern scenario played out before choosing a final husband for her which would have made far more sense if the North was the end game. He wants the Stark line extinct in the spirit of the Reynes and Tarbecks and he wants Sansa humiliated in the eyes of the other lords. Sansa is supposed to become Tyrion's whore, the dwarf's leavings, and I suspect is intended to bear dwarf children to solidify the humiliating destruction of House Stark. Sansa's tears at the wedding didn't go unnoticed, they were the whole point.

Tze was kind enough to post this in the Tyrion reread thread. I find the idea of Tyrion being in a Lannister prison of his own choosing fairly compelling and also see Sansa as a bride as a "poisoned gift" from Tywin. I see Tyrion's fruitless efforts here (and the entire marriage choice to begin with) as part of this prison dynamic. From this prism both Sansa and Tyrion are prisoners of House Lannister. Both hate Tywin, both hate Joffrey, both hate Cersei. They could be ideal allies here except that the poison that brought them together even kills a detente based on mutual enemies.

I don't hold Tyrion's pointless attempts with Sansa against him. They are selfless in the sense that he is being publicly mocked for her continued virginity and we know that is a particular sore point with him. In the past this almost always resulted in rage or cruelty as a reaction. He could have not married Sansa I suppose but I suspect given Tywin's actual agenda this would have meant a far uglier fate for Sansa. I mostly see two people sharing a prison cell. Two people who combined (not romantically) would have the resources to help each other escape but circumstances are such that they never will.

My current theory is that their time together will be meaningful for both of them. I don't expect any meaningful reunion, but rather in abstentia reflections that help put the future in perspective. I think Sansa recalling Tyrion as "kind' is one such example of this. Marriage is a huge issue for both of them for a variety of positive and negative reasons. It seems to me that their marriage ought to come up again, at least in internal dialogue, as they both resolve their independent marriage problems with other people.

I think I agree with your analysis of Tyrion choosing to be in a Lannister prison--in fact, the interesting thing about Sansa's time in KL is that she influences two men--the Hound and the Imp--who have both chosen to serve the Lannisters. The Hound ran away to Casterly Rock from Clegane keep for shelter and to become a squire at the age of six; the Imp is desperate to be accepted by his family. Both these men are so keen to become a part of the power structure that they will do almost anything to fit in--other than hurt an eleven-year-old girl who is imprisoned after her father's execution as a traitor.

Somehow, their interactions with Sansa are such that these props of Lannister power--the brains and the brawn--are both alienated and forced to deal with the world shorn of their cloak of Lannister protection. Although she herself is a prisoner, she is a means of freeing two powerful men who are in prisons of their own making.

Therefore, it might also be interesting to view Sansa's response to violence--verbal and physical--keeping in mind the use of non-violent civil disobedience in the modern world.

[ArabellaVidal]

Therefore, it might also be interesting to view Sansa's response to violence--verbal and physical--keeping in mind the use of non-violent civil disobedience in the modern world.

I think so too. Why is it that a lot of readers think Ned and Sansa are stupid just because they don't immediately whip out swords and daggers and murder or maim everyone they perceive as an enemy?

To clarify, I believe Sandor Clegane was twelve years old not six when he went to work for the Lannisters, although it is rather intriguing that he chose to align himself to the same family that had trained and, in effect, paved the way for his sociopathic brother's knighthood. Who did knight Gregor? I read somewhere that it was Rhaegar but I don't remember this information from the books.

[saryan]

To clarify, I believe Sandor Clegane was twelve years old not six when he went to work for the Lannisters, although it is rather intriguing that he chose to align himself to the same family that had trained and, in effect, paved the way for his sociopathic brother's knighthood. Who did knight Gregor? I read somewhere that it was Rhaegar but I don't remember this information from the books.

You are correct, Sandor tells Sansa that Rhaegar knighted Gregor. It was after he told her about Gregor burning his face, I believe.

Part of the reason that Sandor may have had to go with the Lannisters is that Gregor's reputation may have limited some of his other options (he certainly couldn't have gone to Dorne). (Sad irony :frown5:). I mean Sandor was still so young and might not have seen the Lannisters themselves as being any worse than any other major families.

[Elba the Intoner]

The problem of perception, and especially of determining the appropriate value of images, runs through her sleeping and waking hours and bewilders Beauty, just as the novel's curious mixture of fantasy and realism troubles Villeneuve's readers. Beauty's uncertainty about how to read the signs around her seems tied to our questions about how to read the novel.

This is a great quote Lady Lea and very relevant. It sums up Sansa's character arc perfectly - she has a problem with perception at the beginning of the story and how she values what she sees. Everything she has experienced since then has been a catalyst to changing her perceptions, or more accurately, the values she places on the things and people she perceives.

Beast, by asking her every night if she wants to sleep with him, is trying to get Beauty to make the connection -the missing link- between the man in the dream and himself, but she refuses, she's not yet aware of the clues, but she finds she’s getting drawn to him as the dreams continue unfolding. It's a slow process of sexual awakening (Psyche's is sudden), and the connection is made via the gaze, that’s female desire, with good results in the Villeneuve version and disastrous in Apuleius’. It’s because of this pattern that some scholars think the inspiration for Cupid and Psyche was a woman’s dream that got to Apuleius’ ears only the Old Gods and R'hllor and Zeus maybe know how, and that’s also why some, like the author of that essay and meself, think Beauty and the Beast by Villeneuve is a subversive replay of the Roman tale, with elements added to suit the times and the morals the author saw fit.

Lots of Sandor Sansa parallels here - On the night of the Battle of the Blackwater, Sandor was sleeping in Sansa's bed when she comes to her room, later she makes up a kiss between them in her thoughts and even later at the Eyrie, Sansa has a dream of Sandor climbing into her bed. It's a slow process of sexual awakening just as you describe and the impetus for this process is Sansa's gaze and Sandor is always imploring her to "look at me"!

Fiekie, welcome to the thread. I know nothing about the epic of Gilgamesh so can't really comment, but if you see the parallels then by all means please elaborate. I'd be interested in reading about it. Just from the little bit you posted, it reminded me of the story of Tarzan. He is known as the ape man and raised by apes to be like one. Though he starts to long for learning more about who he is even before he comes across another human, it's really his relationship with Jane that causes his transformation back to civilized man from ape (at least that's how I remember the story but it's been a while).

[brashcandy]

Now where is that book?

Into the Dark Lands sounds very interesting Arabella, so if you do find it and want to present a longer review, please do.

Don't want to waste anyone's time though so can someone tell me if this has been discussed somewhere? Else I'll do a more detailed analysis.

Welcome to the thread fiekie :) And no, we've never discussed that story, so feel free to explore it further!

[bgona]

Lady Lea I have read your analysis and I have a lot of things to say. But I keep getting out of time (again).

But I want to say that with almost all the ideas that came to you with Tyrion, it come to me also with Sandor. That is so good to discuss!!

[Devaki Khanna]

I think so too. Why is it that a lot of readers think Ned and Sansa are stupid just because they don't immediately whip out swords and daggers and murder or maim everyone they perceive as an enemy?

To clarify, I believe Sandor Clegane was twelve years old not six when he went to work for the Lannisters, although it is rather intriguing that he chose to align himself to the same family that had trained and, in effect, paved the way for his sociopathic brother's knighthood. Who did knight Gregor? I read somewhere that it was Rhaegar but I don't remember this information from the books.

I think he was twelve when he killed his first man--he must've been six when he had his face burned because he played with a toy that belonged to Gregor. He must have left home when his father died, which could have been as early as a year after the face-burning incident.

[Ragnorak]

Ragnorak,

Great post, and lots of food for thought. It had not occurred to me before that perhaps Tyrion was so trapped in his Lannister prison that he really did toe Tywin's line here and understood that he was party to doing a Reyne and Tarbecks on the Starks by marrying Sansa. Also interesting that even though he goes along with it on a macro level (The Rains of Castemere on anyone opposing the Lannisters!) he still manages to rebel on the personal level.

Hmm, I will have to think some more on it!

EDIT: I think I was viewing Tyrion in a too positive light perhaps, which would shock more than one poster into having to fetch their smelling salts, I am sure. ;)

I'll take one more crack at it (because I probably should have been much clearer) and then surrender on Tyrion if I'm not.

The primary aspect of marriage is sharing and Sansa and Tyrion share nothing except a cell. As we read their POVs they share none of the same thoughts, reflections, or feelings about each other or the world around them. Being naked in a marriage bed is about intimacy, laying yourself bare, stripping away your protections and being vulnerable to your spouse. Two people press together trying to be one until they literally become one through their children.

Marriage is supposed to represent a transition into adulthood. It is both freedom from your nuclear family but also the act of taking up your family's mantle in order to perpetuate it. Neither of them are freed through this marriage. Sansa is forced into this role to fulfill the extermination of her family not to perpetuate it. Tyrion is supposed to pick up his family's mantle through the extermination of Sansa's but refuses (for his own reasons and based on his own misunderstanding.) Sansa wants to preserve her family mantle and Tyrion is in the process of acknowledging that he doesn't want to preserve his. Even the lack of a bedding is a rejection of the public recognition aspect of their marriage and a sign that they are surrounded by enemies, not friends and family.

On their wedding night, they go through the motions of intimacy, of laying themselves bare before each other. Tyrion sees that even naked Sansa is still armored and when Tyrion is stripped bare all Sansa sees is a Lannister. There are walls between them so each is isolated in their own cell. Tyrion's reaction is to engage in escapism with Shae while Sansa turns to Dontos to plot an actual escape. Tyrion is pretending to have Tysha back and Sansa plays out her last innocent belief in stories.

I'm not trying to frame Tyrion's actions as objectively "good" but relative to his own past behavior there are notable positive differences with regard to his treatment of Sansa and his prior actions and value judgments. There are also certain parallel aspects of their stories as well as strongly contrasting elements. Sansa escapes, moves closer to home, closer to family, and closer to power in her own right but still ends up in a prison at the Eyrie (where Tyrion was imprisoned.) Tyrion goes from a prison of his own choosing to a black cell against his will (maybe as a result of losing Tywin's protection because he refused to rape Sansa.) He moves further from his family, embraces his father's enemy in Oberyn, eventually killing his own father, and is stripped of the power inherent in his family name though he too embarks on a course to acquire power in his own right. Sansa moves closer to the Old Gods while Tyrion travels to the place the Seven originated. They both take on bastard names in service to a hidden player.

From the B&B perspective I think this is important. Tyrion's better treatment of Sansa relative to his past is important in considering Beauty's effect on the Beast. There is also the internal nature and outward appearance of the Beast and the notion of the Beast aspect being a curse. Tyrion is outwardly a Beast and always has been, but his internal nature is in conflict and his internal embracing of Tywin fits with the idea of a curse. I find it interesting that they shared absolutely nothing while married but (I suspect) will actually share reflections on their marriage after the fact. I suspect that the Sansa/Tyrion B&B tale will continue to play out through their separate reflections on their marriage in a similar writing technique to how we see Sansa and Sandor reflect on their time together after being separated.

Tyrion is rebelling on a personal level and even a macro level but only ever in half measures and usually internally rather than through actions. Tyrion's journey is one of reclaiming innocence (while Sansa's is one of shedding it) but he needs the truth about Tysha to really begin that journey. Until then he's always trapped in his Lannister prison. I don't think he really grasped the Rains of Castamere on the Starks though. Tywin's sales pitch on the marriage was that he would get Winterfell and the North and rule through his children with Sansa.

There's a lot buried in Sansa and Tyrion. They aren't like Jon and Dany in DwD where there's intentionally parallel arcs but there does seem to be a good bit of playing around with their stories. Having Sansa "imprisoned" at the Eyrie surrounded by the same cast of characters, possibly needing to convert a man with martial expertise from the service of the one who brought her here to be her champion is a good example.

[Elba the Intoner]

Ragnorak I loved your last post and I'm really glad you are bringing up this discussion of the greater meaning behind Tyrion and Sansa's marriage because I have thought a lot about this too. I wanted to bring it up before but stopped because I was afraid of it turning into a Mrs. Sansa Lannister discussion of why the two should end up staying married or end up romantically linked at the end. They were miserable with each other and I hope they can both end up happy finding someone who really loves them for themselves in the end. But, as I posted earlier this is not going to happen between them because for each one to be their true self would make the other unhappy. But I do see that they could make a great alliance politically and as you brought up, there are a lot of commonalities in their stories especially regarding LF and the Vale. Right now Sansa sees the Lannisters as the ones who destroyed her family but we know that there's more to it than that because LF orchestrated the whole war between them to begin with. And who was the catalyst for starting the war between the two families? Tyrion. We've talked a lot about what Sansa will do if she finds out who was really behind her father's beheading and family's downfall, but Tyrion is the other person who has strong reasons to hate LF and want to bring him down. While he realized the lie about the dagger, he hasn't made the connection yet as to how LF arranged for the dwarfs at Joff's wedding which fed the animosity between Joff and Tyrion. Well now one of those dwarfs is with Tyrion, and because of the events of the purple wedding both Sansa and Tyrion are in hiding. It's the second time that we know of for sure that LF tried to get Tyrion killed. Also, Sansa and Tyrion are still married and there are some open ends with the mountain clans of the Vale and how Tyrion managed to forge an alliance with them, and Sansa is in the Vale now. So, I really think the way they are still tied to each other by marriage and the way they have been manipulated by LF which has hurt both of them, is going to come into play again somehow. I know it's hard to imagine, as Tyrion is half a world away at the moment, but all these little plot points in common are still very open ended and I find it hard to believe that GRRM would set this up so carefully and not resolve it somehow.

[brashcandy]

Oh Rag... where is the "like" button when I need it? I wholeheartedly agree with everything you said, and you said it so well.

Two people press together trying to be one until they literally become one through their children.

:crying:

From the B&B perspective I think this is important. Tyrion's better treatment of Sansa relative to his past is important in considering Beauty's effect on the Beast. There is also the internal nature and outward appearance of the Beast and the notion of the Beast aspect being a curse. Tyrion is outwardly a Beast and always has been, but his internal nature is in conflict and his internal embracing of Tywin fits with the idea of a curse. I find it interesting that they shared absolutely nothing while married but (I suspect) will actually share reflections on their marriage after the fact. I suspect that the Sansa/Tyrion B&B tale will continue to play out through their separate reflections on their marriage in a similar writing technique to how we see Sansa and Sandor reflect on their time together after being separated.

Salient points. I wonder about the role of Shae in all this and she perhaps deserves consideration as another "beauty" who unluckily doesn't survive her association with the beast.

There's a lot buried in Sansa and Tyrion. They aren't like Jon and Dany in DwD where there's intentionally parallel arcs but there does seem to be a good bit of playing around with their stories. Having Sansa "imprisoned" at the Eyrie surrounded by the same cast of characters, possibly needing to convert a man with martial expertise from the service of the one who brought her here to be her champion is a good example.

Great catch. I know you've had some thoughts on Lothor's participation in the Hand's tourney, and maybe his presence at the two significant tourneys during Sansa's time in KL is meant to act as foreshadowing that he'll assume the role of her champion - Sansa's first real game playing take over.

[saryan]

While not directly connected to Sansa, I realized there is another scene where GRRM seems to borrow imagery from the Beauty and the Beast tale: Ygritte’s story to Jon about Bael the Bard and his infiltration of Winterfell:

“…when he (Bael) was done (playing his music), the lord offered to let him name his own reward. ‘All I ask is a flower, Bael answered, ‘the fairest flower that blooms in the gardens o’ Winterfell.’

Now as it happens the winter roses had only then come into bloom, and no flower is so rare or so precious. So the Stark sent to his glass gardens and commanded that the most beautiful o’ the winter roses be plucked for the singer’s payment. And so it was done. And when morning come, the singer had vanished…and so had Lord Brandon’s maiden daughter.” (Jon, ACOK)

I don’t see a direct connection to the rest of the myth here, but I wanted to mention it because the imagery struck me as being similar when I read the story as Lady Lea posted it, and GRRM may well have used this flower scene from the fairy tale as an inspiration. Well, maybe one other similarity to the folk tale is the disappearance/removal of the daughter from her father after the plucking of the rose, albeit in a totally different manner.

The winter rose is also very clearly linked elsewhere to Lyanna, of course (although she is not the maiden in this Bael story).

[Lummel]

... I find it interesting that they shared absolutely nothing while married but (I suspect) will actually share reflections on their marriage after the fact. ...

have you forgotten the pease already? ;)

While not directly connected to Sansa, I realized there is another scene where GRRM seems to borrow imagery from the Beauty and the Beast tale: Ygritte’s story to Jon about Bael the Bard and his infiltration of Winterfell:

“…when he (Bael) was done (playing his music), the lord offered to let him name his own reward. ‘All I ask is a flower, Bael answered, ‘the fairest flower that blooms in the gardens o’ Winterfell.’

Now as it happens the winter roses had only then come into bloom, and no flower is so rare or so precious. So the Stark sent to his glass gardens and commanded that the most beautiful o’ the winter roses be plucked for the singer’s payment. And so it was done. And when morning come, the singer had vanished…and so had Lord Brandon’s maiden daughter.” (Jon, ACOK)

I don’t see a direct connection to the rest of the myth here, but I wanted to mention it because the imagery struck me as being similar when I read the story as Lady Lea posted it, and GRRM may well have used this flower scene from the fairy tale as an inspiration. Well, maybe one other similarity to the folk tale is the disappearance/removal of the daughter from her father after the plucking of the rose, albeit in a totally different manner.

The winter rose is also very clearly linked elsewhere to Lyanna, of course (although she is not the maiden in this Bael story).

Bael the bard seems to be related to the story of Tam Lin, well teh flower motive and pregnancy are shared

[saryan]

Bael the bard seems to be related to the story of Tam Lin, well teh flower motive and pregnancy are shared

Hm, very interesting! I have never heard of Tam Lin.

Although, that story also does sound Beauty and the Beast-esque in some respects. Here is one link I found comparing them:

http://www.tam-lin.org/tales/tamlin2.html

[Ragnorak]

Thank you so much, Brash and Elba

have you forgotten the pease already? ;)

You are truly a cruel man hidden behind that wit. :devil: The worst part is that I don't understand enough about that damn elusive pease meaning to even know if it was sharing or not :dunce: .

[Lummel]

Hm, very interesting! I have never heard of Tam Lin.

Although, that story also does sound Beauty and the Beast-esque in some respects. Here is one link I found comparing them:

http://www.tam-lin.o...es/tamlin2.html

oh good not a random connection then, I like their analysis that Tam lin is closer and cruder to earlier versions (which suits the Wildlings) while Beauty and the Beast is a brushed down and cleaned up version - more suitable to the courtly sophistication of kings Landing

...You are truly a cruel man hidden behind that wit. :devil: The worst part is that I don't understand enough about that damn elusive pease meaning to even know if it was sharing or not :dunce: .

Thank you! Perhaps these

help you to understand the deeper meaning of the pease.

[Lady Lea]

HOW THE BEAST BECAME A BEAST - according to Villeneuve

When an invading army forced the Prince’s widowed mother, the Queen, to lead the troops to battle, the Prince was given to a fairy so she could raise him. This fairy was an acquaintance of the Queen, and wanted very much to protect and raise him. The Queen was reluctant, because the Fairy was known to be vindictive and capricious, but in the end had no choice. So the Fairy educated him, but one day left him for a few years to go on a journey.

When she returned, she realized he had grown quite attractive. She gave him romantic attentions, and forbade the Prince to call her “mother”, as he had previously. The Prince, who was very young, was oblivious of her affections for a while, until she made known her aims, saying she did not wish to be loved by him as a mother but as an admirer, fully expecting joy and gratitude at the proposal. The Prince was young and had no desire to marry an old and haughty fairy, but feared her ill will. He begged to wait until he could obtain his mother's permission.

They travelled to the battlefield where his mother was fighting. The Fairy inspired the Prince with the art of commanding an army, and so the unexperienced Prince led his people to victory, much to the astonishment of the most experienced captains. Afterwards, back in the palace, the fairy told the Queen that she planned to marry the Prince immediately. The Queen was shocked (“Have you reflected, Madam, on the absurdity of the arrangement you propose to me!”), for the Fairy was not only terribly old but also hideously ugly.

The Fairy thought that her power made up for her lack of beauty, but the Queen was of the opinion that there was no higher power than the throne, and so cared little for the Fairy’s. The Fairy asked the Prince if he was so ungrateful and imprudent as to refuse her hand. He replied: “No, Madam, I assure you. Although I am sincerely grateful to you for past favours, I cannot agree to discharge my debt to you by such means; and, with the Queen’s permission, I would rather not give up my freedom so soon”.

The fairy was enraged, and the Queen, who had also lost her temper, suggested that the fairy "Look at the people reflected by this mirror without any bias...and it will speak for me." The fairy took this to mean that the queen was vain because of her son's beauty. She gave the Prince a blow on the head, and when he tried to get up, the weight of his body was unusually heavy and he could not lift himself - he had been transformed. The fairy also added, "and since wit isn't necessary when one is so handsome, I command you to seem as stupid as you are hideous."

The conditions for breaking the spell are set: only when a beautiful girl comes to seek him of her own will, though convinced he would devour her, and later, knowing he would not harm her, conceive for him such tender affection as to agree to marry him, could the spell be broken. The Fairy warned the Prince that he must forget who he was, not let himself be flattered by respects or pompous titles, and not try to shine in conversation with his wit, or he would be lost forever.

The Queen is forbidden to reveal the Beast's true identity to anyone. The Queen's pleading has no effect on the fairy, who leaves after mocking the Beast's condition ("You won't have long to wait, for such a darling will undoubtedly soon find a way to remedy his misfortune").

The Queen and son are on the verge of committing suicide when another fairy appears to them (the one from the Beauty and the Beast story), chiding them for their cowardice and assuring them that "there is no evil that cannot be overcome with time and courage." She promises she will do all in her power to find the woman who can break the spell. To avoid scandal, or someone betraying the conditions of the spell, she transformed all the living beings in the castle into a statue and surrounded the castle with thick fog so that only appointed guests could find the castle.

The Queen was sent to a different castle, and the good fairy provided the Beast with entertainments before leaving to work on his behalf.

The fairy comes and goes with news of the Prince's mother, and one day tells him of a coming traveler, whose daughter the fairy planned to have break the spell. In order for the terms of the counterspell to be followed correctly, the fairy instructs the beast to threaten the father with his life unless one of his daughters comes in his place. This he does, and the rest is history.

The Prince tells Beauty that he loved her as soon as he set his eyes on her, and that “his joy was excessive to find that she could behold him with greater intrepidity than he could behold himself”. He couldn’t talk much to her (so as not to betray his affections) but he could show a good nature, because of a loophole in the evil Fairy’s rules (gotta love those technicalities). The good Fairy told him he was only to win Beauty’s favour in indulging her caprices and nothing more.

The good Fairy made him invisible by day so he could be near Beauty, and created an image of him to show her at night (so it wasn’t really the Prince but an illusion of the Prince, saying things the real Prince might say).

[Lady Lea]

I'm afraid I have to leave the analysing to you this time because I have a paper to turn in in 2 hours, but I'm getting so many Littlefinger feelings from the old evil fairy, who pretended the Prince was her son but then didn't want him to call her 'mother' anymore because she wanted to marry him :ack: The Queen acted much like Cersei in forbidding the engagement (although Cersei did not do it for love of Sansa) because of the Fairy's lack of social status (the Fairy and Littlefinger are both powerful in their own way, but not in a way that the Queen or Cersei valued much). And so the Prince became a Beast and Sansa a bastard, both forbidden to speak about who they really were...

[bgona]

First of all, I must said that I like your analysis LL cause you brought a lot of Tyrion ideas (that I could not have made).

This youngest daughter, who was 16 years old, was so pretty that everyone called her “la Belle” (literally, “the Beautiful”, but we have come to know her in English as “the Beauty”). She was very amiable and did her best to cheer the others up, but her sisters were jealous of her, and said that she was only happy because she had no sensibility and was made for coarse activities.

Another thing I want to comment on, that I’ve seen discussed elsewhere, is how we don’t know the youngest daughter’s name. She is only “the Beauty”. Even though she has other qualities (she’s amiable, kind, cheerful, a good musician, etc), she is reduced to her physical appearance, stripped of her identity and individuality.

It has been really good explained before by Milady, but I wanted to add my impression: I believe that Beauty has a global meaning about all her qualities: not only her physical aspect, but also her intelligence and her good-nature, all this together do her "The Beauty" (all the things that a woman must have).

The youngest said she only wanted her father home safely, but after much insistence from her family, she made one request: a rose.

It turned out he couldn’t recover anything, so he made his way back, in a harsh winter. Freezing and hungry, he wandered into a palace. It seemed empty, though suspiciously full of statues depicting people in all sorts of clothes and positions. There was a fire and a table with a banquet, so he helped himself. Afterwards he started going from room to room to find the palace’s owner, but, finding everywhere to be empty he decided to sack the place (!). He also thought it would be a good idea to move with his family there. He then found a winter garden with rare flowers and a nice rose-bush, and remembered his promise to bring Beauty a rose. As soon as he picked one, a terrible Beast appeared. “Who gave you permission to gather my roses? Isn’t it enough that I kindly allowed you to remain in my palace? Instead of gratitude, reckless fool, I see you stealing my roses! Your insolence shall not go unpunished”.

The man was very frightened of the Beast, and threw himself on the ground. “My lord, have pity on me. I do not lack for gratitude. Overwhelmed by your kindness, I could not imagine that such a small thing could offend you”.

Terribly angry, the Beast yelled: “Shut up, you damn pompous fool! I have no use for your flattery, or the titles you give me. I am not my Lord, I am The Beast, and you won’t escape the death you deserve!”.

First, I really like the winter garden idea. It reminds me of Winterfell. But the really great thing here is the Beast’s speech. It’s so rough, he even curses the man (“Tais-toi, maudit harangueur!”). And yes, it is italicized in the original. Basically you could change The Beast for The Hound and it would be just like a line out of ASOIAF. Compare: “I’m no lord, no more than I’m a knight.” Sandor Clegane snarled at her. (…) “Spare me your empty little compliments, girl… and your sers.”

Belle ask for a rose: why a rose? They are associated with Aphrodite that she was often adorned with them. In addition, a rose bush grow within Adonis blood (her death lover). The rose symbolizes an inmortal love, that will not end with the death. Also it has the meaning of secrets.

And why the father pick the rose? Normally when you cut a rose, you don´t cut one full open. It is one that it has to end blooming at the hand for whom is the rose to be (it can be a vase). The blooming of a woman is her first menstruation. It can be reflected as a meaning that Belle is not yet get to a grow woman. She´s still at the process of being.

We must remember that at the Hand Tourney Sansa had both days a rose (the one given by Ser Loras, but that she carries when The Hound won Jaime). And that she got her first moonblood at KL. And who was present at that blooming was The Hound.

I also like the last sentence "I´´m not Lord, I am The Beast, and you won´t escape the death that you deserve", not only for the resemblance with The Hound, but also for the possible meaning of death. Death sometimes means a change, the death of old you and the begining of a new one. The father didn´t end dying, but he became wealthy again, so his poverty is dead.

Also it can means the death of Belle not bloomed and the begin of Belle as a full woman.

It is significant to remember that Sansa father (Ned) is dead, and that she did that transit from girl to woman at KL.

Also of note: the Beast places a lot of faith in words and honour, something that the Hound definitely does not.

I truly believe that The Hound scorn towards knights came from his deep honour belief.

Hmmm, I’m sorry, but this is quite creepy. She didn’t really come willingly did she? That is a lot like Tyrion’s “proposal” to Sansa, when she had already been told by Cersei that she would marry him one way or another. So what if Beauty said she was forced? Her father would die. So what if Sansa said she wouldn’t marry Tyrion? Either the king would force her, or she’d marry another Lannister. Choices!

Beauty has choices: she could have say that she won´t go. And his father could return at her place or her brothers could have kill the Beast, or try another sister to go at her place or even to take the risk of nobody returning to the Beast. But she choices to take her responsability. As when you accept the punishment due to a bad action that you have done. You done take that punishment cheerfully, but you choose to have it.

The next night, Beauty and the Beast had dinner together. They conversed for a while, and suddenly the Beast asked if the Beauty would like to sleep with him (!). She was frightened, screamed and said a vehement “no”. The Beast then said, calmly, “Oh well, if that is your wish, then I shall leave you. Good night, Beauty”.

Sleep with me (coucher avec moi) it has the same double meaning at Spanish (acostarse conmigo). Here also it can be interpreted as love me. It reminds me to the Hound "Look at me". This sentence also reminds me as a request to love him. It is as looking at his inside. When the Beauty realises that she loves the Beast, she sleeps with him. When Sansa realises that she loves The Hound is when she will be looking at him.

[Queen of Winter]

Love the thoughts being presented here, ladies and gents! :thumbsup:

<snip> The Princess and the Pea has some potential and I think The Snow Queen might be worth a look from Sansa's perspective at some point in the future. I'm still convinced that lamb and peas have some profound symbolism that still eludes me.

The thought crossed my mind of doing this a few months ago, not sure if I will be able to find the time though.... :worried:

[bgona]

Every night, Beauty would also dream about the agreeable fellow who looked like Cupid. This particular night when she was thinking about her fate, he asked her what was wrong. She said she was in love with him, and so the Beast’s wish to marry her [note: this is the first time in the story where the verb épouser (marry) is used instead of coucher (sleep)] distressed her greatly – and would even if the Beast was handsome.

He replied that she should love the one who loved her, see past appearances, and free him from his prison.

After a while, Beauty’s eyes grew accustomed to the Beast’s ugliness, but she found his conversation dull and stupid, his compliments clumsy and his questions foolish, though his manners were gentle and he complied to her every wish (seriously, she has a monkey theatre).

What odd advice. “Love the one who loves you”. I guess what she wants and who she loves don’t matter. Some guy loves her, so she should love him back, and care not for his appearance.

A lot of people say Sansa should stop being shallow and learn to love Tyrion. Except that I don't think Tyrion loves her. He thinks her stupid and childish, deceitful and cold, and cares not for who she is as a person, or her feelings. It’s all very well to wish that she would bring him “her joys and sorrows and lust”, but let’s be real, he only cares about her lust (in ADWD he says “my wife does not want me, least of all the part that seems to want her”). And even if he did love her, why should she love him back? I mean, there is literally no reason for her to love him. Unless you count gratitude for not raping her.

Anyway, people keep insisting to Beauty in this story that she should love/say yes to the Beast (btw – the Beast in this story has an elephant trunk and scales. Just sayin’. Imagine sleeping with that). I still don’t really get why. I mean, the Beast seems pretty sincere in his affections, but the fact remains that she is his prisoner. Besides, she doesn’t see him all day, and when they meet at night he “only utters the same five sentences” and answers in monosyllables, and then finishes off with the “will you sleep with me” question. That is hardly an encouraging environment for affection. I mean, it’s very nice that he hasn’t hurt or killed her, and gives her everything she wants, but that’s pretty far from “yes, let’s totally sleep together”.

Indeed to love someone that loves you is the wish of all lovers. To love someone that do not love you only carry pain to the one that loves.

The Beast has gentle manners. This makes me think about The Hound gentle touch. In both: gentle is very important, reveals all their love, all their good behavior.

In addition, imagine The Hound conversation: it won´t be Sansa favorite one for sure. They have not meeting point at their conversation.

Instead, Tyrion conversation is not boring neither stupid. It is difficult between Tyrion and Sansa due to all the odd feelings that they have. It is a tense situation, that the atmosphere could have be cut with a knive.

At night her Unknown man said that she should stay longer than two months away in order to kill the Beast, who was only a monster and of no use to the world. “Is it to be counted a misfortune that your happiness should cost only the life of a monster?”

Beauty was angry at this, saying that she would lay down her life to save his, and that “this Monster, who is only one in form, has a heart so humane, that he should not be persecuted for a deformity for which he cannot be blamed”.

Again the Unknown playing the part of Littlefinger here. And some divergences from ASOIAF: sorry folks, but in my opinion Tyrion is every bit as ugly on the inside as he is on the outside. He thinks people persecute him for his ugliness, but it’s actually because of his actions. I don’t think he has a “heart so humane” though sometimes he can be kind. And when Tyrion was arrested for Joff’s murder, Sansa didn’t really insist to go back and lay down her life to save his (not that she murdered Joff), however “grateful” she might have been to him. A question: do you think, in the future, if her happiness depended on it, Sansa would be ok with someone murdering Tyrion?

Of course the other character who has a “deformity” is Sandor, and him I’m sure Sansa would insist should not be killed. Unfortunately, again, he isn’t actually an innocent guy with a human heart, but a pretty ruthless killer.

Sansa inwardly defends The Hound cowardice explaining to herself that he hates fire and that he is afraid of it.

Edit: because I forgot about the gentle manners.