Arya's Destiny?

[kephv]

I'm sorry but that does not make any sense to me. You cannot do what you want and not do what you want at the same time. Except if you're talking of the mundane action of having priorities and making choices, in which case everybody "denies" oneself to be become that other self that gets things they want more.

You lost me here. I was simply saying she can live by whatever identity she chooses once she becomes a FM (the priests seem to be able to customize their faces and she's been given free rein so far to choose her own names). Obviously, that doesn't mean this has a psychological effect where, once the face is put on, she automatically forgets her past and her birth name.

[James Arryn]

He does have a tendency to stray off topic. Rather annoying.

:) / :(

[Lady Wylla Manderly]

This has also been my philosophy. And it's no secret that George loves to mess around with his fan's expectations. For the sake of my sanity, I might as well start preparing myself and hope for the best. :drunk: It's nice (and slightly reassuring) to know that we have Parris on our side.

P.S. I know this is a very shallow reason so don't pay this much heed, but I think it would be kind of messed up for GRRM to kill off the only Stark (excluding Jon) that actually has the Stark look. I've always wondered whether there was any particular significance to that - Arya being the only of Ned's trueborn children to inherit his coloring - or if it's simply coincidence.

:frown5:

I don't know, maybe she "dies" in the way Jon does, which doesn't necessarily mean it has to be a bad thing.

Jon: "let the boy die, and the man be born."

I think we'll see that his "death" prepares him for his true fate.

For Arya, it may be the same way.

Let the girl die, and the woman be born.

With the girl dies vengeance and hatred, and with the woman born comes dicipline, and a desire for justice.

I think it's Rickon that everyone needs to look out for in terms of unbridled hatred and a thirst for blood, and I think even his own family may need to be wary.

Yes. This is good. Let us Arya fans unite and continue dreaming and reassuring ourselves. At least we'll have each other to cry and scream with if the worse should happen xD

I always thought the reason why Arya was given Ned's colouring (and not Cat's) was because it was easier to find someone of similar colouring in the North, hence the whole plot with Jeyne Poole? But you're right The Nite Wolf, this is GRRM, so there may be another significance to it.

Actual Cannibal Rickon Stark xD

< snip >

Just thoughts.

Very amazing parallels, thank you for sharing them! I never noticed it before. I was more focused on the uncanny parallels between Bran and Arya's stories. Someone on this forum made a very eloquent post about this.

Your examples actually fit well to what Alia said above. The whole "Kill the boy/girl, let me man/woman be born" thing.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

I've been playing catch-up and as a result I wrote the longest damn post in the history of posts. I'm dividing it in two because I think it will be easier to read.

I'd actually like to see Arya and Gendry end up together as a fulfilment of the relationship that never took place between Lyanna and Robert whose almost exact replicas Arya and Gendry are.

It reminds me of how in Wuthering Heights Hareton and young Cathy are a catharsis of sorts for Heathcliff and Cathy's tumultuous and tragic relationship. Robert and Lyanna never had a relationship to begin with, but GRRM wouldn't replicate the story verbatim anyway, so I kind of hope this happens.

I can see GRRM making a twist on our expectations on the fate of the two sisters, Arya and Sansa, having Arya end up with Gendry and maybe even starting a family (having a pack) and Sansa being the Lone Wolf, as it has already been proposed, not marrying anyone (as she could end up having a healthy phobia of men and marriage alltogether).

But not before Arya kicks ass across Essos and Westeros first

Will someone tell me what's so compelling about making a Baratheon/Stark marriage come to pass? As far as I can tell Baratheons are poison to Starks, starting from Lyanna who didn't want anything to do with Robert, ran away (imo) from him and wound up dead, to the poor dire wolf that died with an antler in its throat, to Ned who went to help his friend Robert and wound up beheaded, to Catelyn whose presence at Renly's death cause her all sorts of trouble, to Jon, a Stark bastard, for heaven's sake, whose connection to Stannis was one of the things that got him killed. Not a good track record.

And speaking of bastards, Gendry is not a Baratheon, he's a Waters. If Lyanna and Robert actually married, he would have been Lord of Storms End and Lord Paramount of the Stormlands and she would have been a great lady who was deeply unhappy with her whoring husband. No matter how one fantasies, Gendry is not going to be Lord of anything – and before you say, "but Arya doesn't want to be a great lady," remember we're talking about replicating the Robert/Lyanna marriage that should have been. If Arya's not getting anything more than Gendry's body out of the deal, what does she [need] a Baratheon for? There are lots of good looking commoners out there who are way more interesting than Gendry, who is, let's face it, a rather sullen youth.

I rather see her with Jaqen – he was hot AND interesting.

Furthermore Arya and Gendry getting together would not be like Hareton and Cathy. Heathcliffe and the first Cathy loved each other, if in a rather sick way; Lyanna did not love Robert.

Then there's the personality and preferences problem: Gendry is sullen and stubborn, Arya is friendly and dominating. They'd fight over everything. Gendry was born and bred in the South, and he planted himself in the Riverlands and refused to move, rejecting the Stark cause and abandoning Arya. Arya, as a Stark, is not only from the North, she IS the North. But the biggest obstacle to any relationship between them is the fact that he follows R'hllor, in other words he's probably hostile to weirwoods, wargs, ice and snow and she follows the old gods. I don't want a R'hllorist anywhere near Winterfell's godswood. TYVM.

On second thought, the greatest obstacle might be Willow.

I apologize for the argumentative tone of this post but Gendrya just makes me :ack:

[Sand Snake No. 9]

Long-ass post Part Deux.

I think that Jaime's "prophecy" is actually a hint that Sansa won't go the way of obscurity.

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiight. Pass the unicorns puking rainbows please. (If you were being sarcastic, please pardon my sarcasm.)

I do agree, however, that Arya has no interest in playing the Game of Thrones.

The needle quote in context:

You had best run back to your room, little sister. Septa Mordane will surely be lurking. The longer you hide, the sterner the penance. You'll be sewing all through winter. When the spring thaw comes, they will find your body with a needle still locked tight between your frozen fingers.

After rereading that quote in its entirety I believe that people focus on the wrong statement. The important part is: The longer you hide, the sterner the penance.

In my opinion this means that Arya can't solve all her problems by running away, (perhaps this is a message about remaining with the FM?) and if at some crucial point in the story she doesn't confront some issue, thing, person directly then the consequences will be dire. The question is whether she'll pass the test.

The "princess" is already dead; she died with Robb and the Kingdom of the North (but at least she didn't have to marry the Walder Frey's 22nd son). The current Arya is as far from royalty as you can get.

I still say, in the nicest way. to the bloody mummers she will go.

I hope you don't mean those bloody mummers. The more I think about it, however, the more I think that an apprenticeship with mummers is just the thing (although I still think Arya spending some time with courtesans has great comic potential.)

P.S. I know this is a very shallow reason so don't pay this much heed, but I think it would be kind of messed up for GRRM to kill off the only Stark (excluding Jon) that actually has the Stark look. I've always wondered whether there was any particular significance to that - Arya being the only of Ned's trueborn children to inherit his coloring - or if it's simply coincidence.

I don't think this is a shallow reason at all. Jon is recognized as a Stark by people at the Wall and beyond, his appearance is commented on, and there's even an assumption that he carries some Stark mojo along with his looks. So it seems to me that if there's got to be a Stark at Winterfell, it would be best if that Stark had "the look."

[Lady Wylla Manderly]

< snip >

I apologize for the argumentative tone of this post but Gendrya just makes me :ack:

Don't apologise, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. And you're brought up several great points that were already in my mind as doubts as well. (Though I hadn't considered the R'hllorism deal. Good catch.)

I have no real deep speculations about that "ship," to be honest. Unlike some, I would not like to see a Lyanna/Robert reborn because the first one turned out so well, you know? xD I think I'm just a secret romantic who enjoyed their cute, puppy-crush kind of moments. Particularly in ASoS. But that doesn't mean that I want them to end up together forever, because who knows when they'll meet again and more importantly who knows what kind of people they'll be when they meet again.

[evita mgfs]

In-universe though, her flaws get her in a lot of hot water. Mary Sue tends to not have that scruple because those flaws arent real flaws in-universe.

For a perfect example of a Mary Sue in a canon work: See Bella Swan.

A lot of characters have "Sueish" traits. But that doesnt mean they are Sues. A lot of the time, Mary Sue is used as a term for "Character I do not like but others in the fandom do."

EDIT: evita, more or less. But canon Mary Sues do exist. They just...dont exist in ASOIAF. ;)

Thank you, Florina Stark, I appreciate your fine analysis and addendum to my post. good job! :bowdown:

[evita mgfs]

Yes. This is good. Let us Arya fans unite and continue dreaming and reassuring ourselves. At least we'll have each other to cry and scream with if the worse should happen xD

snip

Very amazing parallels, thank you for sharing them! I never noticed it before. I was more focused on the uncanny parallels between Bran and Arya's stories. Someone on this forum made a very eloquent post about this.

Your examples actually fit well to what Alia said above. The whole "Kill the boy/girl, let me man/woman be born" thing.

Thank you, the Pack Survives. I read this post. Maybe I should add my Jon/Arya comparisons to those offered. Thanks again! :bowdown:

[Little Wing]

<snip>

I apologize for the argumentative tone of this post but Gendrya just makes me :ack:

Well... that's just your opinion. ;)

I was not saying anything about "replicating Robert/Lyanna" and did say that GRRM wouldn't replicate the Wuthering Heights parallel verbatim. Also, what I did say was that if Arya and Gendry would end up together, it would be a catharsis of sorts for all the Baratheon/Stark "failed" relationships. So, to be clear, once again - catharsis, not replication.

As for Wuthering Heights: Heathcliff's and Cathy's love was destructive and Hareton and young Cathy seem a balanced reincarnation of their love. Now it's interesting that Lyanna and Rhaegar are more similar to Heathcliff and Cathy, but again, I don't see why GRRM would recreate the story verbatim - He mixed it all up, but it's there.

As for Gendry and Arya often quarreling - I wouldn't want a boring relationship for Arya.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

The "this long-ass post is longer than I thought" part.

Yes, and so I just want you to define what is that "Arya Stark identity" she is supposed to "go back" to, because as I see it, the experiences you have in life are integral to who you are, and you never stop being who your are. "Arya Stark identity", "Starkness" and whatever I see as just a bunch of baloney for denying her that experience, that growing up, and make her become again the little girl they liked, and if it's not that, then I have no idea what is supposed to be that identity, so I ask for a definition.

Jeez Louise, now you are just being contrary for the hell of it. The whole damn series is about identity and the loss or discovery of the same, particularly in the case of the Stark children. Just read the chapter headings, for Pete's sake.

On topic: if there were no such thing as a "Stark identity," why would the FM be so adamant that she become "no one?"

One of the definitions of identity is "the characteristics determining who or what a person or thing is". These are the determining characteristics of Arya Stark: the name "Arya Stark;" the family that claims her, her status as a highborn daughter of a Great House, her distinctive Stark appearance, specifically grey eyes (which distinguish her from the fake Arya), long face, brown hair, her resemblance to Lyanna, a famous Stark, her mannerisms, especially her habit of chewing her lip when she thinks, her rare ability to skinchange, which identifies her as a descendant of the First Men, itself a defining characteristic of the Stark family, her special connection with a particular dire wolf which could be considered conclusive proof that she's a Stark, her residence at and identification with Winterfell, the Stark family seat, and her possessions, especially Needle which was made by the armorer at Winterfell, given to her at Winterfell by her half-brother, the Stark bastard, and named after an incident that occurred at Winterfell.

These characteristics have nothing to do with maturity or a desire to see Arya remain a little girl.

Once Arya entered the House of Black and White, she gave up her name and all her possessions except Needle, which identifies her as a Stark. Her family is gone. She has no status. The whole point of the FM's special magic is to change her appearance. She's being trained to control her face to lose her distinctive mannerisms, and she is chastised when she fails to do so (the waif slaps her when she chews her lip). In fact, a major part of her training is to convince masters of detection that she is "no one." She cannot, however, give up skinchanging which, imo, is controlled as much by the animal as the skinchanger.

"No one" is a person who wiped out his or her individuality so that he or she can assume different identities without detection. That, I thought, was obvious.

The Pack Survives and many other readers are convinced that Arya will be so conditioned by the FM training that she will give up her name, status, appearance (will the real Jaqen H'gar please stand up?) mannerisms, Winterfell, in fact all of Westeros and even Needle, permanently, and remain a FM. In short, she'd be brainwashed. In fact, brainwashing, or whatever you want to call it, gets a lot of page space in ASOIAF. You know, that Theon/Reek thing? The Unsullied? What the Septas were doing to Cersei? (Cult tactics to break down a person's willpower and resistance prior to remaking them). So these readers' concern about Arya's future is as valid as any other readers' concern about their favorite characters.

It's also clear that Arya can "go back" to using her name, she can "go back" and dig up Needle, she can "go back" and claim her rights and privileges as a member of House Stark, she can "go back" to chewing her lip, she can "go back," literally, to Westeros and find Nymeria, and she can "go back" to Winterfell. If Arya walked into the great hall at Winterfell looking like Ned, with Nymeria at her side and Needle in her hand (was it signed by the armorer?), I think the assembled throng could be damn certain that she was the real Arya Stark.

Does that help at all?

By the way, I think Sansa is less Stark than her siblings. So shoot me.

[Lady Wylla Manderly]

< snip >

Does that help at all?

By the way, I think Sansa is less Stark than her siblings. So shoot me.

Yes, thank you. That's what I meant when I mentioned her training and my wish to regain herself, but apparently it wasn't clear and also somehow wrong...? I don't know. Thank you for explaining this eloquently.

Well, that depends, really. I'm not saying I don't see where you come from, and Lady being killed could be of major significance, And it also depends on what we consider as "Starkness." I for one never cared to make such distinction because each family member is different. What are your thoughts based on?

[Sand Snake No. 9]

Oh I forgot a characteristic, in particular, a characteristic of a Stark lord. That person can mete out justice with his own hand. Robb did it, Jon did it, and Arya can do it.

Well, that depends, really. I'm not saying I don't see where you come from, and Lady being killed could be of major significance, And it also depends on what we consider as "Starkness." I for one never cared to make such distinction because each family member is different. What are your thoughts based on?

LOL, I might take that to PM; you have no idea of the tsuris a discussion of Sansa's Starkness (or lack thereof) can cause.

[Saint Arya]

I think she will go to train but will leave within the next book. She just can't let go of her Stark-ness. And I think she will join with an army. Maybe Aegon's. Maybe Dany's. Nymeria has an army and so will Arya. Hopefully.

[evita mgfs]

Long-ass post Part Deux.

snip

I hope you don't mean those bloody mummers. The more I think about it, however, the more I think that an apprenticeship with mummers is just the thing (although I still think Arya spending some time with courtesans has great comic potential.)

snip

No, the mummers in the Purple Harbor or the Happy Port, whom she likes very much, and Martin spent time discussing the company, their playwright Quill, and some of the crazy actors and their shinnanigans. (Although if she ends up with the mummers, it will be ironic considering how much she hated Hoat's gang.

Arya can learn to play the part of a courtesan - she must first learn to act like one. So far, she has only had to be Blnd Beth and Cat of the Canals. To be a courtesan, won't she need to learn the art of the seven sighs? (I love that - does Martin ever detail what those sighs are?)

Just my ideas. :dunno:

[Dark Heart]

A lot of good points and posts I agree with.

So, I'm not going to quote it all. The post would be way too long if I did.

Mostly I don't think "death foreshadowing" will come to mean much.

All Stark kids (and pretty much all main characters) had death foreshadowing made for them.

Also, it interesting to note that all Stark kids are (for a given worth) "dead".

Jon the boy is "dead" but Jon the man will raise.

Bran and Rickon are "killed" by Theon.

Arya is missing and considered "dead" even before she start thinking of "Arya Stark" as dead.

Sansa is missing and pretending to be a LF's bastard.

At most Arya might "die" forget herself for a time but then something will snap her from it. And "Arya Stark" will be reborn.

I like NW / FM parallel.

And I think FM might try and help the war against the others.

They think that He of Many Faces grant the gift of death. And they do take care of the dead in their temple.

So, I don't think they'd be happy with the idea of wrights (walking dead that should be in peace).

Not terribly important but I don't want to see Arya with Gendry.

I don't think they'd be good for each other at all.

And if we want to see the history set right then we should ship Arya with Aegon.

[Lady Wylla Manderly]

A lot of good points and posts I agree with.

So, I'm not going to quote it all. The post would be way too long if I did.

Mostly I don't think "death foreshadowing" will come to mean much.

All Stark kids (and pretty much all main characters) had death foreshadowing made for them.

Also, it interesting to note that all Stark kids are (for a given worth) "dead".

Jon the boy is "dead" but Jon the man will raise.

Bran and Rickon are "killed" by Theon.

Arya is missing and considered "dead" even before she start thinking of "Arya Stark" as dead.

Sansa is missing and pretending to be a LF's bastard.

At most Arya might "die" forget herself for a time but then something will snap her from it. And "Arya Stark" will be reborn.

This reminded me of Jojen's greendream about Ramsay (whom they thought was Reek at the time) killing Bran and Rickon and flaying their faces. I think the phrase was something like how Bran and Rickon "laid dead at his feet?" Jojen also said the greendreams do not like, but not everything appears as it is. (Like how he saw the letters as "dish being served" etc...) So technically you are right, it sort of has come to pass. For all the world knows, Bran and Rickon are dead. (Except for Wyman Mandely because that man is awesome I just want to feed him eels and pat his head xD)

I think for Arya and Sansa's "true names" or "personalities," we can use the word dormant? It's not gone, not "dead" yet, and although they are pretending to be other people (and getting too much into it sometimes, I'm afraid), their true-selves still resurface from time to time. Like Arya killing the NW deserter and hiding Needle, Sansa building snow Winterfell and thinking "You're not my father. I'm the blood of Winterfell," when Littlefinger speaks to her.

[evita mgfs]

snip

So all the actor's studio students denied themselves and became noone?

I believe I used what is called a "Simile" - Arya is "like" an actor or actress in a mummer's farce. A simile compares two otherwise unlike things using the words "like" or "as". I at no time made a statement that ALL ACTOR'S STUDIO STUDENTS DENY THEMSELVES AND BECOME NO ONE.

Now, not to sound condescending, but I have both directed, stage-managed, written, and performed in a variety of plays, from musicals to tragedies to mime to children's theatre.

I have also done some filming - as a camera person and as a film editor. Some actors DO lose themselves in a role. I have heard unkind gossip regarding Heath Ledger's fate being connected to the role of the Joker, a truly evil creature in the Batman: The Dark Night movie. He, according to what I think is a malicious press, say he internalized his character too much, which haunted his psyche and may have led him to self-medicate - and as a result, succumb to an overdose. So some actors, especially method actors like Tom Hanks, Brad Pit, George Clooney, and Anthony Hopkins study their roles carefully, even meet with people who are, or who are representative of the character they are about to play.

In the soon to be released Les Miserables, Anne Hathaway even had her long hair cut off on camera for her scene of Fantine's fall into the world of prostititon.

I hope I have explained that Arya may lose herself in a part, as some actors do - many even come early to performances and stay in character even while with the ensemble cast on down time. It is part of an actor's methodology. There are many, many acting theories - and I cannot explain them all. But acting is theatre - and Arya, with her masks of skin, seems to me a good candidate for further training in the art of theatre and stage craft.

She will not, I repeat, will not necessarily become a method actor and turn into a character from a play she performs. :dunce:

[Lady Wylla Manderly]

< snip >

That's very interesting and I didn't know any of these. Thank you so much for sharing your personal knowledge =)

Furthermore, can I also add that now that we know even actors can sometimes "get caught too much" in their role, I FM's influence would be amplified considering someone is actually training Arya not to be Arya anymore.

[evita mgfs]

That's very interesting and I didn't know any of these. Thank you so much for sharing your personal knowledge =)

Furthermore, can I also add that now that we know even actors can sometimes "get caught too much" in their role, I FM's influence would be amplified considering someone is actually training Arya not to be Arya anymore.

Thank you, my dear The Pack Survives. Not all actors are that devoted. I have read where Robert Pattinson comes onto the set and "wings it" with very little prep, and there is also unkind gossip that when he began in the Twilight Series, he demanded of the author to give him motivation to play this teenaged vampire who sparkles, lusts for Bella's blood, but must fight off his natural urges.

The rumor goes that Meyers actually wrote for Pattinson another version of Twilight from Edward's perspective, entitled Midnight Sun. However, a rough draft of Midnight Sun's first twelve chapters was leaked on the internet. (rumor is Pattinson leaked these chapters). Meyer has since put these twelve chapters on her website so that her fans could read them for free, but has put the project on hold indefinitely due to her feelings about the situation.

So, my point is, not all actors are as dedicated to their craft as others. And most are not like Heath Ledger and internalize the role, if indeed that is what he did.

I have read that actors on shows like Criminal Minds, where they deal with the wort psychopathic serial killers on network TV are offered "therapy sessions" with professionals who help them deal with these monsters. Imagine being a real FBI agent and seeing such horrors daily. Yikes! :dunno:

[Brandon Martell]

It's also clear that Arya can "go back" to using her name, she can "go back" and dig up Needle, she can "go back" and claim her rights and privileges as a member of House Stark, she can "go back" to chewing her lip, she can "go back" and find Nymeria, and "go back" to Winterfell. If Arya walked into the great hall at Winterfell looking like Ned, with Nymeria at her side and Needle in her hand (was it signed by the armorer?), I think the assembled throng could be damn certain that she was the real Arya Stark.

It's all about the wolf. Those who departed from their wolves, Sansa and Arya, lost their Stark identity, while each of the boys kept till this day their Stark identity with their direwolf. Robb died as the Young Wolf, and his wolf died with him. Jon is still a Stark. Bran, although he's thought to be dead, is definitely still a Stark and has never taken the persona of a non-Stark. Rickon, as we've seen from Davos' last chapter, is a Stark and as long as his direwolf (his Starkness) is with him, no one will doubt that.

Arya and Sansa are no longer Starks. I don't think Sansa will ever be a Stark again. Arya, on the other hand, still has part of her as a Stark (direwolf, needle), it's just that she's gone distant from it. I think the point of keeping Nymeria still alive is just that. Arya will be a Stark again.