Arya's Destiny?

[Winds of Winter blow cold]

I'll keep it simple...I think she will hear about the attack on Jon...swear vengeance...go into an emotional tailspin! Then...she will hear about his recovery (how ever it comes about)...& be so happy & relieved That she will come to realization about herself! When next we see her...she will be telling the Kindly Man that she still has something of her 'old' life...she still has-& will a;ways have-love!...& that as long as she has that she can never be no body! She leaves the Faceles Men on good terms... and much to her surprise...with a number of Faceless Men along to take care of her list for her! (Yeah I know it's mushy.)

[evita mgfs]

This is not an Arya-analysing thread. And I'm sorry if this has been posted before, feel free to kick my arse and call me a douche if that's the case xD

Seeing as how there are many people who can be considered as "old timers" and many more people who've digested the books so carefully and accurately... I wanted to hear you guys' theories about how do you think Arya will end up.

I've a feeling like she will return to Westeros at some point, but who knows with GRRM.

Your thoughts?

Here are some of my wild crackpot ideas about Arya. I hope you can follow because the thoughts came fast - then I had to add the quotes - but I just thought this out. I know you won't bash me, but others might. So in my defense, I am warning crackpot follows: :dunce:

I made a connection with Arya and Jon: both of them are part of a Night’s Watch. Arya, as well, is the sword in the darkness, for as a faceless man she wears a mask, or hood, to cloak her own features as Arya of House Stark, so she is shrouded in darkness, metaphorically speaking. Her weapon is her killing ability, symbolized by “sword”, one of the three dogs of war in Shakespearean plays, notably in Julius Caesar when Antony promises bloody vengeance for Caesar’s death: He says, “Cry Hovoc, and let slip the dogs of war”. Another thought, the Starks are the dogs of war who will be metaphorically unleashed from their crypts to rise against their enemies.

“Havoc” means not taking any prisoners as well as taking all spoils, or booty, and the three dogs of war are the results of war: Famine, Sword, Fire, metaphorically speaking. However, war dogs are also associated with battle to scout, cause a diversion, to sniff out cadavers, to attack and kill the enemy, etc. Ares, the Greek god of war, is oft depicted in images with a hell hound at his side and a vulture on his shoulder. His animal associations are the same: dog and carrion birds, animals that eat the dead on the battle field.

The analogy I am making is with the Starks representing aspects of the Shakespearean elements of war, since Martin does make pointed references to the specific play Julius Caesar, and most copies have annotations defining the “havoc’” and “dogs of war” – that’s how I know.

The Starks, as the dog/wolf/direwolf counterparts, will cry havoc against those who wronged them. Who will unleash them, or what, is the big question.

I can see Arya’s service with the Faceless Men as parallel to Jon’s oath to the Night Watch:

[with a few adjustments in the vows to attend to Arya’s female sex]

Night gathers, and now my watch begins

• “On the night the moon went black” (FfC 772), Arya returns to her duties at the House of Black and White, where she tends the dead and serves other Faceless Men and priests at their monthly gathering. Both involve the verb watch: whether literally or figuratively.
  
• Arya calls her own self the Night Wolf, for she is the dark force who escorts, metaphorically and figuratively, the dead to their final resting places – to the Shadowlands, Nightlands, or roots of trees. She associates herself with the Night where she is in charge of watching and caring for the dead, as well as taking good care of her victims.
  
• The Night Wolf’s prayer is still Arya of House Stark: “Ser Gregor . . . Dunsen, Raff the /sweetling, Ser Ilyn, Ser Meryn, Queen Cersei” (DwD 593).
  
• Night is also represented when Arya is made blind through a potion given to her:
  

“. . . every dawn she woke to darkness” (DwD 593).

• “Hear, smell, taste, feel . . . there are many ways to know the world for those who cannot see” (DwD 594).
  
• When Arya asks the Waif how long she must be blind, she answers, “Until darkness is as sweet to you as light . . . “ (DwD596).
  
• Also, when he has an assignment, she studies him far in advance, learning his habits, his schedule, his clientele, and so on. She watches, maybe not on a Wall specifically, but from a perch with a good vantage point, as the Wall with its height allows the NW to lookout over the haunted forest, etc. to spot the enemy’s arrival.
  

It shall not end until my death.

Once part of their order, it is for life. She will take an oath at some point, for the Kindly Old Man tells her, “We are but his servants, sworn to do his will” (FfC 772).

• Also, the Kindly Old Man tells Arya: “The cost is all of you” (FfC 452).
  

• Arya may die as a Faceless Man ironically, as well. For example, if she joins the mummers in the Purple Harbor or elsewise, she may perform a death scene – or act the part of a character who dies in a mummer’s play.
  

I shall take no wife [husband], / hold no lands, / [father [mother] no children.

I shall wear no crowns and win no glory.

• “Women bring life into the world. We bring the gift of death. No one can do both” (FfC 453).
  
• The Kindly Old Man tells Arya, “. . . the Many Faced God will take your ears, your nose, your tongue. He will take your sad grey eyes that have seen so much. He will take your hands, your feet, your arms and legs, your private parts. He will take your hopes and dreams, your loves and hates. Those who enter his service must give up all that makes them who they are” (FfC 453-453).
  

I am the watcher on the walls. /I am the shield that guards the realms of men.

• “All [realms of men] must bow to him [Him of Many Faces] in the end, no matter . . .” (FfC 722) what their faith.
  
• “All mankind belongs to him . . . else somewhere in the world would be a folk who lived forever. Do you know of any folk who live forever?” ( 722).
  
• “It is not for you to say who shall live and who shall die. That gift belongs to Him of Many Faces” (772).
  
• She is a shield in an ironic sense compared to the Night’s Watch, who keep an eye out for the marching death that the Others and their minions represent. Arya, on the other hand, is an instrument of death for some deserving appointee of Him of Many Faces, the end god of the godhood. She shields the victim or victims of the recipient of the Him of Many Face’s gift.
  

I pledge my life and my honor to the Night’s Watch, for this Night and all nights to come.

• Once part of their order, it is for life. She will take an oath at some point, for the Kindly Old Man tells her, “We are but his servants, sworn to do his will” (FfC 772).
  

• Since she learns the arts of deception, especially the skills of spotting a lie and telling a lie, her sense of honor may be skewed. Her honor is serving a God of Many Faces as an instrument of death, which is an ironic twist to the “shield” – Arya is, in a sense, protecting the interests of others who seek out the deaths of supposedly deserving victims.
  

Just thoughts.

[Errant Bard]

The FM are conditioning Arya to be NO ONE, to deny herself as Arya of House Stark.

What does it mean, beyond acting and lying, to "deny oneself", to "be noone"?

But you see, that's what I don't get. If someone said "Arya Stark identity" (which is what I'd said above btw, as opposed to being No One), you would twist their words as you did with mine and claim that somehow I was against to her... growing up and learning how to lie?

Yes, and so I just want you to define what is that "Arya Stark identity" she is supposed to "go back" to, because as I see it, the experiences you have in life are integral to who you are, and you never stop being who your are. "Arya Stark identity", "Starkness" and whatever I see as just a bunch of baloney for denying her that experience, that growing up, and make her become again the little girl they liked, and if it's not that, then I have no idea what is supposed to be that identity, so I ask for a definition.

Note neither of you were actually capable of defining it, you just kept reformulating the original statement about "being noone and not Arya Stark". Doesn't tell me what each of those terms means.

Did someone actually use the term "Mary Sue" to describe Arya?

:bang:

"You keep using that word...I dont think it means what you think it means." ---Inigo Montoya.

I did to describe how she would be perceived if Martin made her the most special snowflake ever, yes. You should stop using that princess bride quote, if you don't check the accepted or common uses of the term first.

[The Nite Wolf]

A Mary-Sue is what the Sansa fans unwittingly make her out to be - at least the ones that attempt to absolve her of blame in all situations and write paragraph upon paragraph to convince others that she's actually a misunderstood genius. Sorry, I couldn't resist. :drunk:

(Don't mind me.)

[Florina Laufeyson]

A Mary Sue isnt just a special character. It is a character who is perceived as having no real flaws and every single thing in the story revolves around that character. Everything. Love interests, plot, etc. That character is praised by like, every character in the story. If its a villain remarking on Mary Sue, its almost always something like how Sue is a worthy opponent and stuff like that. Mary Sue rarely faces consequences for her actions. Everyone in-universe loves Mary Sue.

Arya does not fit this criteria. Many characters in this series get plot gifts. Stark kids get direwolves. Jon gets Longclaw. Dany gets dragons. Tyrion gets smarts. Brienne gets Oathkeeper. Cersei gets Robert Strong. Bran gets weirwood network. Everyone seems to be magnetic in their own way. By that logic, everyone who is still alive is a Mary Sue. <_<

[James Arryn]

By that logic, everyone who is still alive is a Mary Sue.

Okay so far, tell me more.

Wait, what plot gift did the leech wrangler's son get again?

[kephv]

Yes, and so I just want you to define what is that "Arya Stark identity" she is supposed to "go back" to, because as I see it, the experiences you have in life are integral to who you are, and you never stop being who your are. "Arya Stark identity", "Starkness" and whatever I see as just a bunch of baloney for denying her that experience, that growing up, and make her become again the little girl they liked, and if it's not that, then I have no idea what is supposed to be that identity, so I ask for a definition.

I haven't been following the discussions and only read your post, but she can permanently deny anything she wants, keeping her new name and faces that better fit some idealized version of whatever she wants to be at the time. I suppose she could also develop some type of multiple personality disorder, but I don't think Martin's going down that road.

EDIT:

About Mary Sues-

Arya's not a Mary Sue but she does have a lot of Sue traits. Especially considering a lot of her 'flaws' are what makes her so endearing to most. And she's continually becoming less Sueish the more murderous she gets.

Okay so far, tell me more.

Wait, what plot gift did the leech wrangler's son get again?

He gained immortality at the hands of the others. Now he'll never be cold again -- or need to look for food

[Florina Laufeyson]

Okay so far, tell me more.

Wait, what plot gift did the leech wrangler's son get again?

Fake Arya. :P (meaning Winterfell more or less)

[James Arryn]

I haven't been following the discussions and only read your post, but she can permanently deny anything she wants, keeping her new name and faces that better fit some idealized version of whatever she wants to be at the time. I suppose she could also develop some type of multiple personality disorder, but I don't think Martin's going down that road.

*Eyes stray to poster name, back to post...pause...back to poster name...consider...pause again...think about a snack, maybe a bite of brownie with some orange chocolate...back to poster name...*

[James Arryn]

Fake Arya. :P (meaning Winterfell more or less)

Hot Damn! That's upward mobility.

[evita mgfs]

From what I read on wiki, the Mary Sue is a term derived from Star Trek and made popular in the analysis of fan fiction. I may not know a whole lot, but Martin is not writing a fan fiction like Fifty Shades of Grey, where the characters are fictional embodiments of the Twilight Series' characters, only with the names changed to avoid copyright violation: a college graduate, Anastasia Steele, [aka Bella Swan] and a young business magnate, Christian Grey [Edward Cullen] are representatives of Mary Sues and Marty Sues. I never thought Martin would be analyzed on the basis of fan fiction, but what do I know. I just like to speculate. :dunce:

[kephv]

*Eyes stray to poster name, back to post...pause...back to poster name...consider...pause again...think about a snack, maybe a bite of brownie with some orange chocolate...back to poster name...*

:eek:

:dunno:

I don't get it.

[Florina Laufeyson]

About Mary Sues-

Arya's not a Mary Sue but she does have a lot of Sue traits. Especially considering a lot of her 'flaws' are what makes her so endearing to most. And she's continually becoming less Sueish the more murderous she gets.

In-universe though, her flaws get her in a lot of hot water. Mary Sue tends to not have that scruple because those flaws arent real flaws in-universe.

For a perfect example of a Mary Sue in a canon work: See Bella Swan.

A lot of characters have "Sueish" traits. But that doesnt mean they are Sues. A lot of the time, Mary Sue is used as a term for "Character I do not like but others in the fandom do."

EDIT: evita, more or less. But canon Mary Sues do exist. They just...dont exist in ASOIAF. ;)

[James Arryn]

:eek:

:dunno:

I don't get it.

Yeah, gotta agree with him on this one, dude. That was a little oblique.

[evita mgfs]

What does it mean, beyond acting and lying, to "deny oneself", to "be noone"?

snip

I have been saying from the beginning that Arya is like an actor in a mummer's farce even wearing a hooded mask. Braavos, afterall, is " a city made of secrets, a city of fog and masks and whispers" (FfC 721).

Also, the KOM grills Arya about her identity many times, One example follows:

"Who could have done this thing, I wonder?"

"Arya of House Stark."

"That girl. I thought she had left Braavos. Who are you?"

"No one."

"You lie." (Ffc 738)

The priest tries to get her to forget her name - to assume new identities and make them her own,

But Arya as the Night Wolf still recites her prayer. She is not following the FM on this point,

Just my lame ideas again. :bawl:

[kephv]

In-universe though, her flaws get her in a lot of hot water. Mary Sue tends to not have that scruple because those flaws arent real flaws in-universe.

For a perfect example of a Mary Sue in a canon work: See Bella Swan.

A lot of characters have "Sueish" traits. But that doesnt mean they are Sues. A lot of the time, Mary Sue is used as a term for "Character I do not like but others in the fandom do."

EDIT: evita, more or less. But canon Mary Sues do exist. They just...dont exist in ASOIAF. ;)

I said she wasn't a Sue. And it doesn't matter so much that her flaws get hot water in story, to the readers her flaws (lashing out against standards for girls in her society, her willfullness, and even her kills for some) are some of her most endearing traits.

Yeah, gotta agree with him on this one, dude. That was a little oblique.

How so? She can always stick with whatever name and identity she finds most pleasing, never saying/thinking the word Arya Stark again. I'm not saying she will do that (highly unlikely considering the story) but that would be a definite possibility if she always stayed where she was at.

[Florina Laufeyson]

I know you did, i was clarifying what makes a Sue.

Anyway, moving on....

[James Arryn]

How so? She can always stick with whatever name and identity she finds most pleasing, never saying/thinking the word Arya Stark again. I'm not saying she will do that (highly unlikely considering the story) but that would be a definite possibility if she always stayed where she was at.

No, I was agreeing with you about James Arryn's comment to you about chocolate and MPD and whatnot being out of nowhere.

[kephv]

No, I was agreeing with you about James Arryn's comment to you about chocolate and MPD and whatnot being out of nowhere.

He does have a tendency to stray off topic. Rather annoying.

[Errant Bard]

she can permanently deny anything she wants, keeping her new name and faces that better fit some idealized version of whatever she wants to be at the time.

I'm sorry but that does not make any sense to me. You cannot do what you want and not do what you want at the same time. Except if you're talking of the mundane action of having priorities and making choices, in which case everybody "denies" oneself to be become that other self that gets things they want more.

Arya does not fit this criteria. Many characters in this series get plot gifts. [...]

Seriously? Are you for real? Did you really miss the part of the sentences that begin with "if Martin ...."?

I have been saying from the beginning that Arya is like an actor in a mummer's farce even wearing a hooded mask. Braavos, afterall, is " a city made of secrets, a city of fog and masks and whispers" (FfC 721).

Also, the KOM grills Arya about her identity many times

So all the actor's studio students denied themselves and became noone?