More Gender Wars

[Lyanna Stark]

Just a short note for James Arryn regarding class. You claim feminists ignore class. I find that amusing since I grew up in a very working class environment with parents who both lack higher education. None of my friends had parents with higher education. I am intimately acquainted with how it feels to come as a "working class" person to an academic environment and feel like a complete alien. And when you suddenly realise that all these prejudices you've thought were a natural part of life when you grew up actually aren't that natural. There's a class perspective to feminism, too, which is important. And I do not think, like you seem to think, that feminism can be stripped from class and class can be stripped from feminism.

EDIT: But then I am rather a leftist, especially compared to most Americans on this board. And I come from a country where class is discussed and debated, albeit not as much as it used to be. However, there are very practical effects of class on women, like for instance that couples with higher education and who come from educated backgrounds tend to share more parental leave. There's also a trend that they share taking care of the children when they are sick, and they share more of the housework. Hence bringing awareness to lower class people is a huge issue, since women of the lower classes often fight the double whammy of both being undereducated/low paid and having to take the brunt of the burden when it comes to children and house work. This is not even touching upon things like stigmatising of single mothers, how women from the lower classes trend towards traditionally feminine lines of work etc. Class is a strong indicator when it comes to emancipation.

[leighm89]

Hate to break it to you Elder Sister but all the Executive Assistants at my work are female. We're a young, progressive workplace overall & I'm the venerable age of 23. Some things don't change. But this is anecdotes - the stats very much prove this is still the case even if we hadn't experienced it for ourselves.

[Balefont]

The gist of what I'm getting from James Arryn is that he's all for women gaining equality as long as that doesn't mean men have to be targeted and "brought low" in order to acheive said equality.

What I get from feminsism isn't that men need to be "brought low" in order to acheive gender equality but actually feminists are working towards elevating women and to hell with men's current positions. We are reaching for the stars and men and welcome to do the same. Part of our quest for the stars involves escaping from the shackles words that are inherently anit-female sexist but are socially accepted on a day-to-day basis, equal pay for equal abilities/skills, abolishment of rape culture, etc.

[Elder Sister]

Leigh, I said things had improved. By that, I mean, it's not as overt as it once was. I totally 'get' that it still sucks. You're preaching to the choir.

I once worked for a man who despaired of being unable to slap hysterical women as they had been able to do in the 50's. He was a real peach. :)

ETA - totally agree with Balefont's post - thank you!!!!

[James Arryn]

Well, sorry for assuming if this is not the case for you, but this is normally the way these insults are structured. This was also more in response to leighm89's post. If you are really far away from the average, that's probably a good thing for you. However, in my experience, most men are not like you. Most women aren't either.

In any case, I've had these debates through my university years with a plethora of male friends. I've argued with them about referring to things as "gay", I've argued with them about using expressions like "you throw like a girl" or words like slut, man-whore etc. I've caused an enormous number of embarrassed silences when I've questioned people's racist, sexist and homophobic choices or words. (In fact, I once walked out on a family dinner into -22C due to what I thought was racist views being expressed.)

I also probably come from a completely different background from you, and one where sexism is more prevalent. My home town is a small town with low levels of average education. I've spent education and work life mostly in the IT sector, very male dominated. Lots of my friends from Uni where techies and people studying science. There were no natural ways in for the more "soft" subjects like sociology etc. These environments where people may never have heard of, or not paid attention to, the suffragettes, that female voting haven't existed forever, gender inequality, why it's objectifying that females in computer games all have chain mail bikini and huge boobs etc. is a completely different environment.

For example, when I went to Uni my parents' neighbours assumed I was going to a household school to learn to keep house. when they were told I was going to a real University, they were gobsmacked and wondered why I was going to be some sort of professor. This was in 1995 and not back in the dark ages. My best friend decided to study physics and her parents and extended family are pure working class. She got absolutely slagged off for going onto studying something so "manly" and was she perhaps one of those disturbed lesbians? If you come from a working class, small town environment and end up working in a male dominated area, you can bet all your money that as a woman, you will be absolutely unable to avoid facing down sexism. Often and a lot.

Your experiences are not universal. Believe it.

But it's not as if they're the opposite, either.

I managed/tended bar in a place in Little Italy for a few years. Probably doesn't mean anything to you, but it's often patroned by a certain type of guy in terms of regulars. Nice guys, a lot of them, but racist, sexist, homophobic. Ayways, on more than one occassion I objected to 'gay', 'bitch', or mostly innocuous but still offensive racist terms. I stated they had the right to talk whatever stupid shit they want, just not when I'm around.

To their credit they adapted...I'm sure they thought I was a prig or whatever in that way, but it still kinda worked...they'd sometimes start and then look like a kid caught cheating *hands up, 'sorry, sorry, I know', etc.

It gave me hope. If one guy (manager, admittedly, but still) can make a bunch of semi-drunk working class Italian and Portugese bigots modify their behaviour, what more can be accomplished by people who know what they're doing?

On the other hand, I had a disaster with sexism in the workplace. When I started working there, as is true of almost any place in the bar industry, they hired few men and exclusively attractive young women as servers.

Okay, James rolls into town, that shit's gonna change (not the men part)...I argued at lenght with the owner's father (the owner was very hands off...the father was an old guy with a background in construction, to give you a feel) and got them to accept that I was going to alter the hiring practices; servers would be hired for competence, not appearance.

So my first applicant for my first avilability was a quite large girl who had good references, was bright, etc.

HIRED.

Went swimingly well until she was caught stealing from the tip box. At which point my moral crusade lost a little credibility.

:(

[James Arryn]

I would characterize Gun as a passive sexist - it's not intentional, but by believing it's not real, you'll let it happen without realizing it.

James is covert aggressive sexist - he's out there arguing against feminism by trying to define feminism to say he's not, providing more obfuscation when asked for clarification, etc.

Thoughts?

Lol.

My thoughts? If you start with a conclusion, don't be surprised if you end up agreeing with yourself.

I'm not remotely covert, aggressive only in sports, and not even a little sexist.

But carry own with your own, don't let me stop you.

[leighm89]

James Arryn (to your last post.....that I've seen thus far....)

Credit where credit is due. Nice work on all fronts.

Shame it didn't work out with your hiree. Let's hope it didn't shatter your opinion on all fat people and or women :P

[leighm89]

I once worked for a man who despaired of being unable to slap hysterical women as they had been able to do in the 50's. He was a real peach. :)

I don't even.....

[Balefont]

ETA - totally agree with Balefont's post - thank you!!!!

;)

[Lyanna Stark]

But it's not as if they're the opposite, either.

Obviously not every work place is horribly sexist. However, I have broached this subject a couple of times with female friends, and the amount of stuff that you hear from it is astounding. Especially from women coming from non academic backgrounds, although stuff happens everywhere. I don't think anyone had gone through education and work life without experiencing some sort of prejudice, discrimination (sometimes very subtle) or outright harrassment.

I applaud your efforts in removing sexism in the work place. Unfortunately, not everyone is like you.

[James Arryn]

James Arryn (to your last post.....that I've seen thus far....)

Credit where credit is due. Nice work on all fronts.

Shame it didn't work out with your hiree. Let's hope it didn't shatter your opinion on all fat people and or women :P

Lol, hardly. As I said earlier, only guy in a shared house with 6 women for like 15 years...it would be a trifle hard to make a dent. :) It was more a case of making me look bad, and having less currency with which to implement change at that particular job.

[Tempra]

Women might not date a man who is a slut, but a woman perceived as a slut willbe thought or poorly by everyone including other women. Any straighr man ditched a male friend here for being a slut?

Have you ditched a female friend solely for being a slut?

These types of people (I.e.sluts) often cause strife within a group of friends not for being sluts, but for sleeping (and subsequently causing drama) with multiple members of the same group of friends. Absent intra-group drama, I don't know why you would drop a friend, male or female, for being a slut.

[leighm89]

But what if said group of friends are all ok with sexual activity within and outside the group, Tempra?

[James Arryn]

Oh, and in terms of men ditching male friends for being a slut? Sure. Insecure married or serious relationship guys at times, yeah.

I should clarify what kind of slut I am...almost never do one night stands. Working in bars, being in theater and fashion and so forth over my life, the whole 1 night stand lifestyle left me cold.

I was more someone who would have a string of affairs, whether they were married or in a relationship or not, the patterns tended to follow similar patterns. And I wouldn't be exclusive, or pretend to be exclusive, unless I was in a serious relationship, at which point I would be. But anywyas, this plus the male escort thing...yeah some guys would break up with me when they got in serious relationships or w/e.

(And for the record I NEVER had an affair with someone involved with a friend, in spite of 1 of the 2 people I came closest to loving earlier on being one of them, and wanting us to...I stayed loyal to the friend, who I haven't seen in years and don't care about, and turned down the girl I still think about often. :( life sucks sometimes. )

Edit: need sleep soooon.

[Tempra]

But what if said group of friends are all ok with sexual activity within and outside the group, Tempra?

Then I don't see why I would de-friend someone for being a slut. Who a friend sleeps with outside my circle of friends is not my business. Same for who he or she sleeps with inside my group of friends so long as it doesn't cause tension. With that said, I have never seen a situation where a group of friends all sleep with each other and no drama ensues. Don't screw the crew, afterall.

[James Arryn]

Whoa, just saw this.

Your rebuttals for points b & c could be swapped and made interestingly symmetrical. How ironic.

Well, except for the quote saying the opposite of what you said I;d said, almost. I think there's a difference between 'I never said that' and 'I said the opposite of that, in fact'.

But since it seems you lack the maturity to attempt to put forward your points in a non spurious and erroneous manner,

Sorry, how was I being spurrious or (assuming the non carried) erroneous!?!? At all?

For the record, you took my argument...which involved personal experience (which itself would counter the idea of non-existance, but moving on) and a list of terms whose meaning includes or wholly means 'promiscuous men' as a censure to counter the suggested and repeated argument that no such thing existed...and reduced it to 'personal anecdotes' and compared it with a silly politician.

I pointed out that you had somehow ommited the whole 'list of words which disprove the suggestion' Also for the record, the poster who made that assertion has conceded the point, so I'm not even sure what you think you're arguing at this point, but I see no basis at all for your rendition of this first clause. You were wrong and incomplete in your revision of my argument, and I cited specific examples of that being the case. Don't know how much farther that can go, really.

Then you suggested I said 'times have improved therefore we should all just be silent and thankful'. My response was to point out that I had never said any such thing. To reject the basis for an argument is not to reject everything related to the argument. I clicked on this thread, saw something that seemed faulty to me, and pointed out how it was so. The person who originally objected has agreed with my objection. Where do you get off saying I'm telling people to be either silent or thankful? That's a strawman, sorry, and it's the kind shaped into a cliche. I don't think it terms of telling women to be quiet or w/e, so take out your issues in that regard with the kind of people who do, and then maybe consider your assumptions in terms of ascribing that to me with no basis in text or fact. Sorry, this is your bad.

And lastly you sarcastically suggested I was saying there is right now complete equality between the genders. I have, repeatedly, in the post you were quoting and several others in this thread said the exact opposite. I quoted the recent example to support my rejection of your putting another strawman my way.

I don't in any way see an objective means of regarding this interaction that supports this post I am now quoting. You made 3 points; they were all wrong, and easily shown to be wrong. If you'd like to review the exchange and point out where I am wrong here, please do so. But short of that your argument here sounds like sputtering postulation in want of a point.

and then have the gall to be condescending about it, I see we have a problem.

Condescending? Maybe...was this before or after you compared my argument with a silly politicians, ascribed cliche sexist positions to me I'd never said, or demanded, in italics, how I could say X with a straight face, X being the opposite of what I'd said?

And thus I counter:

Your intellectually vacuous "arguments" were poorly thought out, attempting to portray yourself as some sort of martyr against the perceived "groupthink" of this thread.

I admit not a lot of thought went into them. I would hazard a guess that if I now accused you of saying here, in this post I'm quoting, that I beat up old ladies and steal their milk-money, you wouldn't need a whole lot of thinking to show you had not said that.

In short, similar to your lines:

Your non points and strawomen are great. Yes. Strawomen, bitches. Irony and all that shit.

Okay, as I have done above, please point out where my points were in any way strawmen, women, persons, citizens, and/or members. Should be pretty easy; it was for me.

There really is no need for a devolvement into this kind of "debate" answer my points and be mature about it.

I did. Your points repeatedly were rebuttles of points I had not made or attempted to make. I can't go much further than point out where you did that. I am not going to invest in arguing positions I didn't take...sorry.

[Elder Sister]

For the record, James, I appreciate the fact that you are able to discuss this stuff and not get vitriolic. I hope we will all continue in that vein...I'm enjoying the debate.

It's hard to have an interesting discussion when it devolves into "I know you are, but what am I?" :P

[James Arryn]

Just a short note for James Arryn regarding class. You claim feminists ignore class. I find that amusing since I grew up in a very working class environment with parents who both lack higher education. None of my friends had parents with higher education. I am intimately acquainted with how it feels to come as a "working class" person to an academic environment and feel like a complete alien. And when you suddenly realise that all these prejudices you've thought were a natural part of life when you grew up actually aren't that natural. There's a class perspective to feminism, too, which is important. And I do not think, like you seem to think, that feminism can be stripped from class and class can be stripped from feminism.

EDIT: But then I am rather a leftist, especially compared to most Americans on this board. And I come from a country where class is discussed and debated, albeit not as much as it used to be. However, there are very practical effects of class on women, like for instance that couples with higher education and who come from educated backgrounds tend to share more parental leave. There's also a trend that they share taking care of the children when they are sick, and they share more of the housework. Hence bringing awareness to lower class people is a huge issue, since women of the lower classes often fight the double whammy of both being undereducated/low paid and having to take the brunt of the burden when it comes to children and house work. This is not even touching upon things like stigmatising of single mothers, how women from the lower classes trend towards traditionally feminine lines of work etc. Class is a strong indicator when it comes to emancipation.

Just saw this too. I don't agree with your assessment of my position...not thinking sexism and classism are linked in in fact central to my point...but this is an interesting post regardless, and I'm unfortunately too brain-dead...literally been typing for about 24 hours now...to give it the response it merits. Will do so if I remember after I get some sleep.

Meanwhile, cheers.

[James Arryn]

For the record, James, I appreciate the fact that you are able to discuss this stuff and not get vitriolic. I hope we will all continue in that vein...I'm enjoying the debate.

It's hard to have an interesting discussion when it devolves into "I know you are, but what am I?" :P

Cheers to you, too. I actually sent you a PM this am but modem crashed as I was submiting it; wasn't much, but I'll re-write it when I wake up, assuming I'm hale and here.

[Kalbear]

James arryn, could you consider for a moment that your experiences of being called a slut and a whore are not typical of generic men at large given that you claim specifically to have been an actual prostitute?

Because using your life experiences as a counter argument to general statements is interesting but not particularly useful, and only derails the conversations.