[ADWD Spoilers] Wights, White Walkers and "souls"

[Little Wing]

Wouldent the hive mind idea mean that there was a "super" power behind it, 1 thing controlling it. Im fairly sure i read somewhere that GRRM said that there wasent such a thing.

The hive mind thing was a bit of a crackpot tie-in I had with another notion, that the female Other is a sort of a Queen Bee. But I actually don't imagine her as a controlling power at all - I see her as part of the hive mind, but important as she might be the only female (?). But, as I've said before, we're groping in the dark when it comes to the supernatural part of the story, so little has been given, so speculate we must.

[jon rr stark]

Well if he is being skinchanged by BR then there isnt room for another soul or being in the body so cant be made into a wright. But I think he is still who he was just by the way the CotF said he was very old when bran asked about him as opposed to being an old body that is being used by someone else. We know BR was a powerful sorcerer so perhaps he has provided some kind of ward or knows the secret of the wights or white walkers. Whatever the case if he is still the original CH then hes soul must be there by his own free will. Which leads me to speculate further that if we do find out who he is he will be a Stark or a trag with links to BR.

when I first read it I though he was a vessel for BR because he is now part of a tree so would need a body to get around in. However given that BR is an accomplished greenseerer I'm guessing he could skinchange into a body if he wanted to but whether this means the whole of the self goes into the new body as in Bran with Hodor which would mean he is no longer connected to the 'weirnet'. Not ideal he needs the best of both worlds.

Im thinking this what will happen to Bran as he will have the natural contact with Jon

[Alpehue]

The hive mind thing was a bit of a crackpot tie-in I had with another notion, that the female Other is a sort of a Queen Bee. But I actually don't imagine her as a controlling power at all - I see her as part of the hive mind, but important as she might be the only female (?). But, as I've said before, we're groping in the dark when it comes to the supernatural part of the story, so little has been given, so speculate we must.

I allways imagined the only way of becoming a white walker was to be "transformed". If thats the case, a woman wouldent really be needed. However there is a massive territory that we still only know as unmapped, there is nothing that prevents that area from being inhabited by a society of white walkers, im fairly sure that the walkers isent all evil. I dont see why they couldent have a society with women left behind them.

In the TV shows, first episode. The ranger that later on gets decapitated encounters a white walker kid, isent that a girl?

Ohh and im by no means saying your not right, i know as little as you :) And i allways enjoy hearing other theories.

[Little Wing]

Oh, the girl on the show is a wight, not an Other. We don't know how Others become what they are, we know very little about them. They're the best kept secret in Martin's universe, so it seems...

[Alpehue]

Oh, the girl on the show is a wight, not an Other. We don't know how Others become what they are, we know very little about them. They're the best kept secret in Martin's universe, so it seems...

Good point! i had that one wrong. It seem fairly odd we heard so little of the walkers though, must be something big coming, or could also be that they are not as evil as we imagine them to be, they might be more interrested in just being left alone, and is only going south due to some unknown factor we dont know yet.

[Ser Endrew Tarth]

Well i was reading AGoT last night (my first re-read as I lost this book for a while) and ran across the part where Bran asked Old Nan for a scary story. This story seems to have a lot of info on the WW. It says that the WW use the babys to feed thier undead armies (wights). She doesn't get to finish the story but ends it with a hero in a hopeless situation against the WW. At the end of the chapter Bran recalls the end, and likens it to Benjen's situation. He says that the COTF saved the hero and they will save his uncle Benjen too. Sry I can't quote don't have the book here at work, but I will try to add the story to the thread soon. I know we have to take these tales with a grain of salt, but their must be some truth mixed in there and some good info we can glean.

BTW I'm scared of packs of ice spiders. :eek:

[Little Wing]

Yeah, keep in mind that Old Nan also tells in her stories as Bran recollects in his first chapter in AGoT (on a re-read myself) how wildlings drink blood out of human skulls and are slavers among other things... so, yeah, grain of salt advised :laugh:

[Ser Endrew Tarth]

Yeah, keep in mind that Old Nan also tells in her stories as Bran recollects in his first chapter in AGoT (on a re-read myself) how wildlings drink blood out of human skulls and are slavers among other things... so, yeah, grain of salt advised :laugh:

LOL, yeah. I can't help but think that the part about the babies is important though. We've asked the question a thousand times on this forum what they do with those babies... Only death can pay for life. It seems the WW's may have a magical way of transferring a baby's potential life force into their wight army to fuel them. The blue fire behind their eyes is baby soul power LOL.

[Little Wing]

Yep, Old Nan is a real Joker - some things are probably true and some are just ... um, special effects? I like to speculate on the nature of Others...as many others here - I guess it's human nature to be curious about the most obscure characters in the series...

[Alpehue]

I keep imagining the White walkers as something closely related to COTF, maybe they split in 2 a very long time ago, 1 side worshipped the earth, 1 side worshipped ice?, . Do we actually hear COTF talking about the white walkers, Im thinking especially about their relaitionship with the white walkers..

[Ser Endrew Tarth]

I keep imagining the White walkers as something closely related to COTF, maybe they split in 2 a very long time ago, 1 side worshipped the earth, 1 side worshipped ice?, . Do we actually hear COTF talking about the white walkers, Im thinking especially about their relaitionship with the white walkers..

Well we do know that the COTF armed the realms of men against the WW's (dragonglass), and that according to Old Nan's story saved a hero from the WW's, so I doubt they control them or created them as some Heresy/crackpot theories have suggested. It seems they are intimately familiar with them (Leaf gives bran info on WW) and can even ward against them with magic (entrance to BR's cave).

I can't totally discount that they are somehow related (anything is possible w/ GRRM) but for all intents and purposes they are now enemies, and we know that has been the case at least since the pact between the first men and the COTF.

[Black Crow]

Well we do know that the COTF armed the realms of men against the WW's (dragonglass), and that according to Old Nan's story saved a hero from the WW's, so I doubt they control them or created them as some Heresy/crackpot theories have suggested. It seems they are intimately familiar with them (Leaf gives bran info on WW) and can even ward against them with magic (entrance to BR's cave).

I can't totally discount that they are somehow related (anything is possible w/ GRRM) but for all intents and purposes they are now enemies, and we know that has been the case at least since the pact between the first men and the COTF.

Not so. The 100 pieces of dragonglass were given during the Age of Heroes, ie; before the Long Night and the first appearance of the white lot. Its most unlikely that the fact there were then 100 kingdoms of men was a coincidence and likely therefore it was a symbolic gift affirming their friendship with the 100 kingdoms. the fact it was dragonglass simply reflects the fact that they didn't work metal and had fought against the First Men with that same dragonglass.

As to Alpehue's question, at no time do any of the children refer to the Others, the white walkers, the white shadows, the cold gods or any of the other names the boys from the Ice go by, which doesn't exactly inspire confidence that Bran is being trained or given information to fight them.

[Ser Endrew Tarth]

Hmmm, they gave them dragonglass every year during the age of heroes. Are you saying they had no knowledge of WW's at that time?

[Black Crow]

Here’s part of Maester Luwin’s history lesson from AGoT:

The Pact began four thousand years of friendship between men and children…The signing of the Pact ended the Dawn Age, and began the Age of Heroes.

So long as the kingdoms of the First Men held sway, the Pact endured, all through the Age of Heroes and the Long Night and the birth of the Seven Kingdoms…

Thus we have the Dawn Age up to the signing of the Pact, followed by the Age of Heroes, which ends with the Long Night, hence the Last Hero, and that in turn is followed by the birth of the Seven Kingdoms out of the ruins of the 100 kingdoms which existed during the Age of Heroes, and before the Others turned up for the first time during the Long Night.

[Ludd]

I find it really odd that do many seem to think the WW are at all like the CoF. We KNOW that WW are hostile to life for traditional animals and presumably plants (cannot grow in ice) The CoF ARE life - they are connected to all living things.

Absolutely NO similarity. The closest thing is Mel's shadow babies and even then not close.

I favour an alien explanation - yes seriously - a life form that is not compatible with life as we know it. This does NOT mean they are evil, just a competing species.

[Ludd]

Can anyone identify the 100 kingdoms who made thet pact. I have a suspicion it might be importants

My list that I am pretty sure is supported by text or sigil

Stark

Dustin (crown on sigil)

Thenn

One of the Skosi (with the crown ans sigil)

Reed

Blackwood

Bracken

The one who ruled the Riverlands- near high Heart starts with T

Tully (I think)

Darry

Maybe Arryn but not sure on this one because very Abdal

Royce

Gardener (not Tyrell)

Manaderley (I am guessing but assume it)

Lann (ister)

Reyne

Westerling (I think)

The guys from storms end

Martell

Someone on the iron islands

OK so that is about 20 another 80 to find.

[Black Crow]

The Manderleys I believe are Andal in origin. The Arryns are Andals but overthrew the First Men in the Vale.

As to others you need to reckon on a number of kingdoms lost beyond the Wall. The Thenns survived due to their high and inaccessible valley, but there must have been more and I'd reckon that the Wildlings are the descendants of those masterless men who survived the destruction of their kingdoms - at places like the Fist

[Black Crow]

I find it really odd that do many seem to think the WW are at all like the CoF. We KNOW that WW are hostile to life for traditional animals and presumably plants (cannot grow in ice) The CoF ARE life - they are connected to all living things.

Absolutely NO similarity. The closest thing is Mel's shadow babies and even then not close.

I favour an alien explanation - yes seriously - a life form that is not compatible with life as we know it. This does NOT mean they are evil, just a competing species.

Ah, but GRRM has said there's a connection and some of us think that connection lies in the natural circle of death and renewal, winter (Others) and Spring (Children)

[Little Wing]

Ah, but GRRM has said there's a connection and some of us think that connection lies in the natural circle of death and renewal, winter (Others) and Spring (Children)

But, what happens if the Children die out? If they die then there will be no Others any more... :o

[kissdbyfire]

Here’s part of Maester Luwin’s history lesson from AGoT:

The Pact began four thousand years of friendship between men and children…The signing of the Pact ended the Dawn Age, and began the Age of Heroes.

So long as the kingdoms of the First Men held sway, the Pact endured, all through the Age of Heroes and the Long Night and the birth of the Seven Kingdoms…

Thus we have the Dawn Age up to the signing of the Pact, followed by the Age of Heroes, which ends with the Long Night, hence the Last Hero, and that in turn is followed by the birth of the Seven Kingdoms out of the ruins of the 100 kingdoms which existed during the Age of Heroes, and before the Others turned up for the first time during the Long Night.

The Age of Heroes ends with the Long Night? Are you sure, or is this speculative?