Sandor Clegane is Sansa perfect match II

[bgona]

It is a Spanish saying: "There is not biggest fool that the one that refuse to see" (Sorry, I ate the first part, upss!).

And I am not refering to people that doesn't see them as a perfect match, but to the ones that do no see that Sandor has emotional feelings toward Sansa (as a couple, not as a protector or fatherish way). That it is at the books. You can agree with them or not, but they are at the books. As the ones that Sansa is developing at the Vale.

[bgona]

Upsss! Again! Today my mind was fooling me :P

It is: "There is no more blind that the one that refuses to see"

[Yvonesan]

First of all, I'm responding to several posters in the original thread in which Sandor's drinking comes into question (I was actually posting my response when the thread was locked).

I'm sorry if you were only expecting those posters to respond. I was commenting on it because I saw several posters bring the subject up and I'm not as convinced that we have enough information to label the character an alcoholic...maybe he's meant to be but maybe he's not either. Maybe GRRM never gave it any more thought than to mention that the Hound drinks on the number of occasions where he mentions it. I wasn't accusing you of saying that the character wasn't worth loving either. It has been inferred by at least some that his drinking is at least part of the reason why he isn't an ideal man for Sansa to love and I commented on it since this is a thread discussing Sandor as Sansa's perfect match.

[MyLittleDirewolf]

I want Sansa and Sandor to get married and be given the Dreadfort after all the Boltons are dead. It will be razed in rebuilt in lemony splendor. Sandor will rename it Littlebird Hall in honor of Sansa. They will have red haired, grey eyed babies and a puppy named Lemoncakes. Arya will roll her eyes and gag every time she sees them act schmoopy together.

[SnowStorm]

Sandor IS Sansa? Wow! This brings crackpot to a whole new level.

[DogLover]

I'm sorry if you were only expecting those posters to respond. I was commenting on it because I saw several posters bring the subject up and I'm not as convinced that we have enough information to label the character an alcoholic...maybe he's meant to be but maybe he's not either. Maybe GRRM never gave it any more thought than to mention that the Hound drinks on the number of occasions where he mentions it. I wasn't accusing you of saying that the character wasn't worth loving either. It has been inferred by at least some that his drinking is at least part of the reason why he isn't an ideal man for Sansa to love and I commented on it since this is a thread discussing Sandor as Sansa's perfect match.

No, I wasn't expecting only certain posters to comment. I just wanted to state there was some context and history. I should have provided a link from the original thread but am too lazy to do so when I'm on my iPad.

I do think those who don't think Sandor is a good match for Sansa because of his rage and drinking issues have a valid argument, but I still would like to see them together, especially since Sansa seems to be developing feelings for him.

[ArabellaVidal]

I want Sansa and Sandor to get married and be given the Dreadfort after all the Boltons are dead. It will be razed in rebuilt in lemony splendor. Sandor will rename it Littlebird Hall in honor of Sansa. They will have red haired, grey eyed babies and a puppy named Lemoncakes. Arya will roll her eyes and gag every time she sees them act schmoopy together.

Oh, to wiv the dweam! :wub:

If they do at all 'end up' together, they will most likely be lovers than a married couple. If.

[bgona]

Dog Lover there is a link to the last page of the other thread at my first comment.

I see your argument and I agree that his rage must be calm down. And right now, he is at that process at the QI.

Arabella: I also see them more as lovers than married.

[Lyanna Stark]

I'm bringing this back to some earlier posts regarding whether or not Sandor is an alcoholic. There is an incredibly broad spectrum when it comes to diagnosing mental illness and addictive behavior. Sandor sounds like a functional alcoholic, just like Tyrion. Both consume massive amounts of alcohol on what appears to be a daily basis as a way to numb their pain, but manage to be efficient and productive when they're on duty-- or plotting power plays in Tyrion's case. Yes, Sandor is Joffrey's sworn shield despite consistently getting shitfaced during his off time, just as Tyrion takes on important duties like Hand of the King. But they both rely heavily on alcohol and are miserable (or more miserable than usual) when circumstances force them to abstain.

No, just no.

A "functional alcoholic" is still an alcoholic, and will always be. Besides, "functional" is a misnomer used by people who simply don't know what alcoholism is. People can be "functional" alcoholics for years if they manage to hide it, but they will still, and always, be alcoholics. If you claim Sandor and Tyrion are alcoholics, then you also claim they will always be alcoholics. Neither Tyrion or Sandor shows that type of behaviour. We don't have Sandor's POV, but just because he says he'd rather have wine than water doesn't make him an alcoholic. Neither does Tyrion's destructive drinking make him an alcoholic.

People can drink in a destructive fashion without being an alcoholic. The addiction and the disease, they are alcoholism. Destructive drinking != alcoholism. Understand this.

Some people can engage in destructive drinking and it can have a strong negative impact on their lives. That is still not alcoholism. That label means there is a disease, an addiction, that can never be shed. Alcoholism the disease, the addiction, is like HIV. You have it for life and can never shed it. Hence if you are talking about destructive drinking, then specify it. There are a lot of us out in the world who have suffered first hand the effects of alcoholism. The real alcoholism, the disease.

I know a fair few people who have engaged in potentially harmful levels of drinking for various reasons, but only a few has developed alcoholism the disease. Once you've seen it up front, you *know*. It also has nothing to do with being "functional" or actual levels of drinking. Someone without the addiction can easily drink more over a period of time, but the person with the disease will always have the disease and the addiction. In the latter case, that person will never be able to control alcohol intake or to "drink normally". The only way to live is to be completely sober. The people who once engaged in harmful levels of drinking can have a normal life with normal interaction with alcohol in the future however, once they have sorted out their issues. In this, life is also unfair. Some people have a much easier time getting addicted, while some can drink harmful levels of alcohol for a long time and then come out unscathed and go one with no addiction.

EDIT: And as for why I know, because it is more useful to ask me which of my relatives don't have issues with alcohol or other addictions instead of the other way around. It's much easier for me to count the ones who don't, they are so much fewer.

[Sneak]

It is a Spanish saying: "There is not biggest fool that the one that refuse to see" (Sorry, I ate the first part, upss!).

And I am not refering to people that doesn't see them as a perfect match, but to the ones that do no see that Sandor has emotional feelings toward Sansa (as a couple, not as a protector or fatherish way). That it is at the books. You can agree with them or not, but they are at the books. As the ones that Sansa is developing at the Vale.

Ah ok, thanks for clearing that up.

I do agree that Sandor lusts after her, I think because she represents all that he has lost (innocence, etc). I am reluctant to call it love however, and I certainly don't want them together. I also don't think Sansa is attracted to the Hound, I think she is thankful for the protection he tried to give her, and thinks of him when she feels threatened, but I don't think it goes beyond that. I honestly don't know what to make of her false memory, maybe it is more of an indicator of her self-delusion and meant to emphasize that she is a unreliable narrator than any romantic feelings.

Re Sandor is an alcoholic, he may not be, but he is drunk in a lot of his scenes with both Sansa and Arya.

[bgona]

Some people can engage in destructive drinking and it can have a strong negative impact on their lives. That is still not alcoholism. That label means there is a disease, an addiction, that can never be shed. Alcoholism the disease, the addiction, is like HIV. You have it for life and can never shed it. Hence if you are talking about destructive drinking, then specify it. There are a lot of us out in the world who have suffered first hand the effects of alcoholism. The real alcoholism, the disease.

I know a fair few people who have engaged in potentially harmful levels of drinking for various reasons, but only a few has developed alcoholism the disease. Once you've seen it up front, you *know*. It also has nothing to do with being "functional" or actual levels of drinking. Someone without the addiction can easily drink more over a period of time, but the person with the disease will always have the disease and the addiction. In the latter case, that person will never be able to control alcohol intake or to "drink normally". The only way to live is to be completely sober. The people who once engaged in harmful levels of drinking can have a normal life with normal interaction with alcohol in the future however, once they have sorted out their issues. In this, life is also unfair. Some people have a much easier time getting addicted, while some can drink harmful levels of alcohol for a long time and then come out unscathed and go one with no addiction.

Many times a person with depression take refuge at alcohol. Turning alcohol into a symptom and not the main issue. If after that symptom change to the disease it depends in different factors. It is easy that this sympton turns to the disease.

Also I want to add that when I was younger and at the University I drank a lot. And that doesn´t makes me an alcoholic. Right now I can drink a few if I want or drink a lot, but the rest of the days I don´t drink nothing, and nothing happens.

Sneak He isn´t drunk in all of his scenes (he is far more drunk at Arya POV than at Sansa, when he is more depressed)

[Sneak]

Sneak He isn´t drunk in all of his scenes (he is far more drunk at Arya POV than at Sansa, when he is more depressed)

I know, I said a lot of his scenes.

[The Wolves]

Sandor is a loser and child murderer, my Sansa deserves better than him. The idea of Sansa with Sandor is nasty

[Kobayashi Maru]

First of all, I'm responding to several posters in the original thread in which Sandor's drinking comes into question (I was actually posting my response when the thread was locked). When drinking becomes your only past-time, then you're an alcoholic. Sandor is not so limited that he only has alcohol to resort to--no one is. That's just an absurd notion. Sandor is clearly self medicating. People who self medicate typically are abusing highly addictive drugs such as booze and are engaging in a behavior much more severe than risk taking.

And nowhere have I ever suggested Sandor wasn't worthy of love, from Sansa, Arya, or anyone else. Of course he's worthy of love, especially if people (Sansa, Arya, etc...) find him worthy of their love. And I love the idea of a romantic relationship between Sansa and Sandor. As a matter of fact, I'm one of the few people on this forum (from what I've read) who wishes Sansa left with a drunkass Sandor during the Battle of the Blackwater.

No you're not. :blushing: ... just saying...

[-Sansa-]

How do you describe the concept of :idea: :read: :love: perfect match? :drool: :wub:

[The Answer]

Sandor is a loser and child murderer, my Sansa deserves better than him. The idea of Sansa with Sandor is nasty

It's not just nasty; it's unnecessary, annoying, and ridiculous.

[-Sansa-]

Yes :whip:, and he is a stalker too :devil:

[Yvonesan]

I also don't think Sansa is attracted to the Hound, I think she is thankful for the protection he tried to give her, and thinks of him when she feels threatened, but I don't think it goes beyond that. I honestly don't know what to make of her false memory, maybe it is more of an indicator of her self-delusion and meant to emphasize that she is a unreliable narrator than any romantic feelings.

GRRM has said that Sansa is an unreliable narrator but he also stated that the kiss (or unkiss) "will eventually mean something". What that will be, of course remains to be seen. Apart from Sansa's mis-memory though, it is a fact that she thinks of Sandor Clegane in almost every single one of her POV chapters, compares him (positively) to practically every man she knows and she does think of him in a sexual/romantic capacity on more than one occasion. The most obvious example is in ASoS when she dreams of her wedding night:

of Tyrion’s eyes devouring her as she undressed. Only then he was bigger than Tyrion had any right to be, and when he climbed into the bed his face was scarred only on one side. "I'll have a song from you," he rasped, and Sansa woke and found the old blind dog beside her once again. “I wish that you were Lady,” she said.

There's so much to be drawn from those words but one thing seems sure, subconsciously or not, at this stage Sansa is attracted to Sandor Clegane.

It's not just nasty; it's unnecessary, annoying, and ridiculous.

Even if GRRM does not intend anything further to happen between these two characters, it's almost certain that he doesn't share your opinion since he has written their story.

[-Sansa-]

Sandor isn't the Hero that has no feelings, and near the end falls in love....

A man without what?.. feelings..?wait a moment.. Are you speaking of Sandor Clegane?

A man that is a emotional rollercoaster during all the novel?

If exist a man who is full of feelings and contradictories attributes during all the novel This is Sandor (is, precisely, for that reason that he is so attractive):

Cruel,living with bitterness, depressed, drunk, Soft / Hard, faking a face emotionless, rough / gentile , almost soft, mad, angry, excited, full of desire, cold, Hot, passionate, cinic , brave, with fear, with shame, without shame, honest, direct, Noisy/Stealth (A Hound after all ;)), astute, pragmatic, delirious, even noble when is consumed for his hate (remember the fight with his brother?), hating himself and the entire world (except .. of course..to a little little thing..)( with a strange and lucid point of view of the world of Westeros),

Falling in love almost from the beginning (in the kingsroad), crying of remorse and pain, laughing (never, ever of joy), desperate, jealous, deeply unhappy, in a constant fight of his divided nature, unpredictable, possessive.

Neither, I think that he will become in a “white shade of pale”. In Quite Isle (suggestive adjective/name , by the way, GRRM told us something..) he is healing his rage, as well as possibly of the most part of things that provoke it and his depression :

“He.. dreamed of slaying his own brother…and even that was taken from him”

“He served , but found no pride in service. He fought, but took no joy in victory. He drank, to drown his pain in a sea of wine..” (all in a simbolic past )

Sandor had an elder brother: Gregor: He try to destroyed Sandor: almost achieves it. This new Elder brother of Quiet Isle is all the contrary and GRRM IS PRETTY OBVIOUS ABOUT THAT:

“The Hound died there, in my arms”(Symbolic death of the Beast) is more obvious yet when Brienne says him: "It is true, then," she said dully. "Sandor Clegane is dead."

And the Elder Brother replies: "He is at rest." (symbolic mental calm of the man/

Then, the man-and only the man- remains alive and he is resting of his wounds(mentals; of the soul and the body..))

[-Sansa-]

Even, the feelings of Sandor have been related on the books in a very sensorial way (it´s fascinating):

Sight: ("Look at me"..."Sansa could feel the Hound watching her".."Take a good long stare."

"You know you want to."

"I’ve watched you turning away all the way down the kingsroad."

"His eyes watched hers. Drunken eyes, sullen with anger. She had to look.")

_________________________________

Voice: ("Rasped", "smooth", "deep", "like steel against stone"..)

Touch: (Hard like iron, "heavy", "almost soft", "gently, close"...)

Olfaction: (Smelling a liars and others things..("the scent.. of the honey" ? I think :cool4: (the bear and the maiden fear..http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/68554-the-bear-the-maiden-fair/page__st__80. ...)

Taste and Touch: ("his cruel mouth pressed down on her own"...he licked honey from her ..with a rough tongue".)