Becoming No One: Re-reading Arya

[1234567]

I would certainly prefer that approach.

I had no intention of lingering, but of expressing appreciation for the points the other two posters had raised. And my own contibution was to tie them together (I believe they are tied together).

Mentioning the knife and how it may relate as foreshadowing is fine, but Arya has not even started her adventures with Sandor yet, so commenting that it is a turning point in their relationship defeats the purpose of the re-read, which is to reexamine the characters from afresh. By the time we get to that chapter the knife may have more significance or less.

There are several points in this chapter which I think will have bearing in later analysis, but I can't be sure of what we will have discovered about the characters until we get to those chapters. So for the moment noting things which we may discuss later or may not (as they may turn out to be a fallacy) is probably the best way forward..

Please keep contributing as your contributions are great. The ground rules are the same as they were for the PtP re-read threads. They needed to be adhered to as by halfway through discussion of Sansa's first chapter, posters were trying to discuss her and LF at the Eyrie, bring up the same old arguments. By sticking to a chapter by chapter re-read, those threads have grown into the re-thinking threads and a much more in depth understanding of the character.

Overview of Arya Chapter 1 Disscussion

Below is a summary of the points made so far about Arya’s development

Arya: Outsider

BrashCandy:

I thought your point on how Arya is at once curious of what Sansa is discussing with her friends, but also dismissive of those interests to be quite salient. She twice requests to be told what they're talking about, but upon learning that's Joffrey, makes the comment that Jon thinks he looks like a girl. What I found interesting was that in Arya's own thoughts before she speaks, she thinks of Joffrey as tall and handsome, and resents that she was made to sit with Tommen, "the little fat one." Again, she attributes this as a personal slight, a reflection of her own flaws in comparison to Sansa.

Brashcandy:

What really stood out to me in the chapter was Arya's deep seated sense of insecurity, something which can be obscured by her otherwise "vocal" performance - supporting Jon Snow and running away from the Septa. As I noted upthread, she's defined both in opposition to Sansa and in similarity to Jon. Her loud defense of him in the schoolroom prepares us for the camaraderie we witness when they meet on the covered bridge, just as we're led into thinking that his relationship with Sansa by contrast is not as close or meaningful. When Arya is in the schoolroom, she notices Sansa "gently stroking" the hair of Beth Cassel, an image that recurs when she meets up with Jon later on, but instead he "messes" up her hair. Arya relationship with Sansa is mediated and constrained by the presence of the other girls around her sister and her own sense of inferiority; with Jon there's a change in both personal and spatial dynamics as they can now "look down" on those in the yard below.

Arya : Parents

Lyanna Stark:

what stood out here is Arya wishing she looked more like her mother. We see later that Arya worries about Cat not wanting her and in other ways having a difficult time relating to her mother, but at the same time I think we can sense that there are deep feelings there.

It may be something to keep in mind and explore later since I believe we concluded, perhaps somewhat surprisingly, that Sansa seems to take after Ned more, and even as early as Arya I there are some hints that Arya may, despite it all, take after Cat more in some ways. Or at least that she is "tied" to Cat in a similar way that Sansa is tied to Ned, when it comes to emotional response and interaction with people.

Arya : siblings

A lot of discussion about how evident the strength of Jon and Arya’s relationship is but how her relationship to Sansa is filled with tension.

Daphne23:

Arya wanted to scream. It was just like Sansa to go and attract the septa's attention.

I find this scene interesting because Sansa didn't attract Septa Mordane's attention; Arya did, and Sansa covers for herself and Arya when the septa asks what they were talking about. I don't blame Arya for over-reacting to a perceived slight considering the septa's behaviour towards her in this scene, but it struck me that this is a trait she shares with Jon, particularly the early Jon of GoT, who can be quite touchy and sulky at times (I love Jon, so this isn't a criticism either!) When Sansa says that Jon 'gets jealous because he's a bastard', it's no more than the truth, although she could have expressed it in a more considerate way; we see in Jon I that he dislikes Tommen and Myrcella as heartily as Joffrey, so his judgement is distorted by his jealousy, although he's right to distrust Joff. Arya also misjudges Myrcella and Tommen, as has already been noted, and I'm beginning to wonder if Arya and Jon's close friendship confirmed and reinforced their sense of being 'outsiders' in the family, although Arya's dislike for ladylike pursuits, Jon's bastard status, and their shared 'Ned' looks would have made them different anyway. Perhaps the fact that Arya was closer to Jon than any of her other siblings encouraged her to become more distinct from the rest of the family, amplifying her original differences? Regardless, their relationship in this chapter is very sweet, especially when Arya remembers Jon reassuring her that she's not a bastard (poor Jon!).

Arya : Septa Mordane

Brashcandy:

Arya's sense of inadequacy around her sister is evident, but Septa Mordane is arguably responsible for exacerbating those feelings by comparing Arya's hands to those of a blacksmith.

Manderly's Rat Cook:

So here's a little thing I've noticed, which would make Arya feel even more sad:

This really is a painful thing to say, because it indirectly suggests that where Sansa's needlework is as pretty as she is, Arya's needlework is as ugly as she is..

LordBloodraven:

Looks like Septa Mordane and Jeyne Poole are the source of the opposition between Sansa and Arya. The first with her favouritism and disparaging comments, the other by simply sharing the same tastes as Sansa and by her "antagonism" to Arya.

Little Wing:

Oh, and how could I forget - Arya's indeed a dichotomy: she wants to know what the girls are talking about, but then dismisses it... she envies Sansa but actually doesn't want the things Sansa wants...

Milady of York:

Superstition aside, I believe Arya was just terrible at stitching and her distaste for this labour was increased by the Septa’s discouraging comments, and she wasn’t being forced to do it with the right hand, or she’d have remarked on it as yet another injustice. Left-handers tend to be better at physical activities than the things Sansa excels at, which should be noted because all things Arya excels at are physical,

Arya: Lefthandedness

Milady of York:

But the prejudice against left-handers is as old as time, it existed in the earliest civilisations, and is more related to the fact that left-handedness is rare: people tend to mistrust things out of the norm and therefore try to force them to comply with the norms of a world that is dominated by right-handers.

In fact the whole post is fantastic.

Arya :Symbolism

Bridges

Ragnorak:

Arya GoT

There was a window in the covered bridge between the armory and the Great Keep where you had a view of the whole yard. That was where they headed.

Bran GoT

It taught him Winterfell’s secrets too. The builders had not even leveled the earth; there were hills and valleys behind the walls of Winterfell. There was a covered bridge that went from the fourth floor of the bell tower across to the second floor of the rookery.

Jon GoT

“Then I haven’t seen you,” Robb replied. Jon left him standing there in the snow, surrounded by wagons and wolves and horses. It was a short walk to the armory. He picked up his package and took the covered bridge across to the Keep.

Sansa SoS

They’d each had a dozen snowballs to hand, and she’d had none. Bran had been perched on the roof of the covered bridge, out of reach

Her bridges kept falling down. There was a covered bridge between the armory and the main keep, and another that went from the fourth floor of the bell tower to the second floor of the rookery, but no matter how carefully she shaped them, they would not hold together. The third time one collapsed on her, she cursed aloud and sat back in helpless frustration.

When I was looking at the symbolism for Snow Winterfell, I considered this meeting on the covered bridge.

There seem to be very meaningful exchanges between the Stark children on or around these bridges and they are a specific focus of Sansa's symbolic rebuilding of Winterfell. I think this serves to highlight the importance of the exchange between Arya and Jon here.

Septa Mordane had this great redeeming death scene in the HBO series that takes a quality of character she never really manifests in the books. She really embodies almost all of the negative characteristics in a Bloody Southron Fool that came up in the Dany/Jon reread. Arya shows promise in a number of admirable Northern characteristics that we see in Alys Karstark, the Mormonts, and Lyanna-- even the Wildlings yet she gets no acknowledgement from her primary teacher. She is the daughter of a Northern lord and the Septa should respect that reality. One interesting point about the blacksmith comment is that Sansa is often compared to the Maiden and the Mother, but not the Crone. Arya is compared to the Smith here and the Warrior later by Cat in the Sept but not the Father.

Little Wing:

Re: bridges - I found a short text on bridges being "unclean places" in Slavic mythology that should be avoided, as well as crossroads. Perhaps an omen?

Horses

Blisscraft:

Arya is associated with horses beginning with this chapter. This ability to ride fits together with the remark that her hands look like a "blacksmith's." Horses fit well with Arya's "tomboy" type persona; aka the Amazon, or warrior princess. Horses are associated with wild beauty, freedom, and power. Horses are can be "broken" to ride, but are never fully "broken" in spirit. Rider and horse, as Arya decribes herself, become a symbol of travels, quests, and greater journeys of the soul. (There is more to the horse as a mythic image, but for the purposes of this first chapter it may be overbroad). "horseface." Another example of her being identified with horses in the same way that Sansa will become identified with birds later on.

Lummel:

The horse rider bond is an emotional one. It suggests a caring sharing sensibility but also an exuberant sensuality rather than the sedate and more properly ladylike embroidery. Of course in Westeros horse riding is also a basic practical accomplishment. Probably more socially specific than gender specific?

Arya: Gender and Society

Lyanna Stark:

It's also interesting with regards to her feelings wrt Cat that she defends Joffrey's decision to display his mother's arms along with his father's. Arya also stands up for that the woman, in this case a person's mother, is important too. Perhaps this reflects her deeper feelings for her own mother, that despite having a bit of a troubled relationship, there is a deep and meaningful connection between Arya and Cat, and Arya stands up here not only for herself or for women in general, but for Cat's importance.

Lummel:

but as we see in the needlework lesson the weapons of war in westeros aren't just swords but also marriage. If Sansa marries Joffrey then doesn't she 'win' the game of thrones by becoming Queen. As a model that's balanced by Nymeria the warrior queen - although we later learn that she wins through marriage too. Marriages sow the realm together in a way that swords can't. Swords cut, divide and threaten the social fabric instead.

Lyanna Stark:

The theme of unfairness because of social status and gender is also firmly underlined in this chapter. First we have Septa Mordane cooing over Myrcella's stitches despite them being crooked too and both Arya and the reader come to the conclusion that Myrcella avoids criticism due to her social status as a princess. Then we have Sansa commenting on Jon being jealous because of his bastard status, and later on Arya's and Jon's conversation of the importance of women and how women and bastards end up with the short end of the stick compared to trueborn boys/men. The conventions of Westerosi society are laid out bare to us in this chapter, and we have Jon and Arya described as two people who disagree with the natural order of things, while Sansa has adopted the conventional role.

Another thing that is established is that Arya and Jon are set up as "rule breakers" with conventional society: However, we will see both Arya and Jon working on breaking these conventions later on, where Jon gives Arya her first sword, directly interfering with the way things are "supposed to be", and should Jon also somehow end up as Lord of Winterfell due to Robb's will, then a bastard will get the arms, and a girl the sword.

[Lyanna Stark]

Arya intermediate chapters (brief summaries of Arya related stuff in Jon II, Sansa I and Eddard III) will be up tomorrow morning CET (Eurocommie time) and Arya II will be up by evening CET, for all of you who want to keep up with which chapters and sections will be discussed next. :)

[Ice Turtle]

I have to say I don't really like the thread title. We have to wait and see, but I think that "no one" is only a phase for Arya and thus calling her whole story "becoming no one" is wrong.

Anyways, I was surprised that no one commented this part:

The burned man looked at Robb. “How old are you, boy?”

“Fourteen,” Robb said.

“I killed a man at twelve. You can be sure it was not with a blunt sword.”

It's a very interesting moment in relation to Sandor and Arya. Sandor is boasting sort of and showing Robb that he is just a summer child. Later when Sandor and Arya have their first close meeting, she is actually trying to kill him with real steel she has stolen from an outlaw, not to mention that he will see her kill a man when she is younger than twelve.

[Lyanna Stark]

Intermediate chapters between Arya I and Arya II

As there is a rather large gap between Arya I and Arya II in AGOT with a lot of Arya related plot happening in other chapters, here is a summary of the "intermediate" chapters. They are Jon II, Sansa I and Eddard III.

Jon II:

First out is Jon when he gives Arya Needle. He finds her in her room when she is busy repacking for the journey since Septa Mordane said so.

"What did you do now?" Jon was amused.

Arya disentangled herself from him and made a face. "Nothing. I was all packed and everything." She gestured at the huge chest, no more than a third full, and at the clothes that were scattered all over the room. "Septa Mordane says I have to do it all over. My things weren't properly folded, she says. A proper southron lady doesn't just throw her clothes inside her chest like old rags, she says."

They proceed to joke around a bit about Septa Mordane and Arya is very pleased with Jon's gift. However, they agree that she cannot tell Septa Mordane or Sansa.

Brief analysis:

Arya and Jon are once again established as outsiders and rule breakers, and also as northerners since they break the rules adhered to by Septa Mordane and Sansa, who both get to represent "southern values" here.

Further, we also have another negative description of Septa Mordane as a teacher. She comes off as unnecessarily strict and biased against Arya.

Sansa I:

The chapter starts off with Sansa covering for Arya with the Septa at breakfast, but soon the sisters are at each other's throats when Arya refuses to go with Sansa to the Queen's wheelhouse for tea and lemoncakes. Sansa is put out that Arya is ruining it for her, and also seems put out that Arya gets away with rule breaking.

Fast forward to the end of the chapter where Sansa and Joffrey come upon Arya fighting Mycah with broomsticks down by the Trident. When they arrive, Mycah has the upper hand and lands more hits on Arya than she on him as he is 13 years old to her 9, and much bigger and stronger. However, enter Joffrey:

Joffrey glanced from Arya to Sansa and back again. "Your sister?" She nodded, blushing. Joffrey examined the boy, and ungainly lad with a coarse freckled face and thick red hair. "And who are you, boy?" he asked in a commanding tone that took no notice of the fact that the other was a year his senior.

We are introduced to Mycah the butcher's boy and Arya claims he is her friend. Joffrey tells him he's just a butcher's boy who want to be a knight, and tells him to pick up his sword, but Mycah is frozen with fear.

Joffrey walked towards him. "Go on, pick it up. Or do you only fight little girls?"

and once again Mycah is frozen and tells him Arya asked him to. Joffrey presses on:

"That was my lady's sister you were hitting, do you know that?" A bright bud of blood blossomed where his sword pressed into Mycah's flesh, and a slow red line trickled down the boy's cheek.

Arya screams at him to stop, and Sansa tells Arya to stay out of it as she is afraid. Joffrey says he won't hurt the butcher's boy...much. And that is when Arya decides to go for Joffrey.

Arya went for him.

Sansa slid off her mare, but she was too slow. Arya swung with both hands. There was a loud crack as the wood split against the back of the prince's head, and then everything happened at once before Sansa's horrified eyes.

Mycah runs off, Joffrey is bleeding and starts fighting Arya in earnest with Lion's Tooth and Sansa screams at them to stop. When Joffrey has Arya backed up against a tree, Nymeria enters, bites Joffrey's sword arm, knocks him off his feet and rols around in the grass snarling and ripping at him, the prince shrieking in pain. Arya then proceeds to toss Joff's sword in the river while insulting him, and then rides off on her own, leaving Sansa to deal with the crown prince.

Brief analysis:

It struck me on a reread that Arya refused to just come out and tell Joffrey that she asked Mycah to train with her, instead she tries to tell him to stop and that Mycah is her friend. I was also struck by that while Sansa partly wants them to stop "because you are ruining things" (i.e. Arya and Joff are ruining her perfect day) she is also frightened and screams repeatedly at them to stop because she feels the situation is dangerous, but by that time the situation is completely out of control. Sansa also notes that both she and Joffrey are pretty drunk.

While Arya's defence of Mycah is admirable, she helps inflame the situation further, especially since she attacks Joffrey first, while he is actually trying to be gallant and protect "the ladies" in his own assbackwards fashion. She also attacks the crown prince without having been personally attacked first and for the reason of protecting a commoner. As we see from later in the series, commoners are worth next to nothing compared to lords, and definitely less than mud compared to a crown prince in the hierarchial world of Westeros. The social hierarchy is strong, and Arya is ignoring it, at her peril.

Again Arya's rule breaking is a theme, and Sansa seems to resent her for getting away with it. She's also presented as an outsider again, compared to Sansa, Myrcella and the supposed southron ladies in the Queen's entourage. While the chapter starts on a more positive note with Sansa being called as wilful as Arya by Septa Mordane and Sansa covering for Arya, plus some direwolf interaction for the sisters, it definitely ends on a strongly divisive note with Arya being angry and riding off, while leaving Sansa to deal with an injured and furious Joffrey. Arya riding off into hiding indicates that she *does* know what she did was absolutely not socially accepted. Otherwise, why not stay around, or go directly to Ned?

Eddard III.

It starts with Arya having been found after having been lost for four days, but instead of being brought to Ned she has been brought directly in front of the King by way of Lannister soldiers. Ned orders Sansa brought along and they enter the Darry castle, where everything is not running smoothly at all. The castle is overcrowded, which has fed animosity between the different factions (Lannisters, Starks, King's men and Darry men). Ned finds Robert and company in a crowded audience chamber, where Arya stands alone in the centre of the room but for Jory Cassel. Ned and Arya embrace and Arya tells Ned she is sorry and that she is not hurt. Ned queries the arrangement.

Cersei speaks on the matter:

The queen stepped forward. "You know full well, Stark. This girl of yours attacked my son. Her and her butcher's boy. That animal of hers tried to tear his arm off."

"That's not true," Arya said loudly. "She just bit him a little. He was hurting Mycah."

"Joff told us what happened," the queen said. "You and your butcher's boy beat him with clubs while you set your wolf on him."

Then Arya and Joffrey get into a shouting match. Robert stops it all and asks Arya to tell her story from the beginning. Renly laughs too much and has to leave the room. Joffrey tells his story which differs from Aryas and it's Joffrey's word vs Arya's. Sansa is then brought forward and she looks first at Arya, then at Joffrey and seems fearful. She stammers and says she does not remember, that things happened to fast. Arya is not pleased.

"You rotten!" Arya shrieked. She flew at her sister like an arrow, knocking Sansa down to the ground, pummeling her. "Liar, liar, liar, liar."

Ned has to pull a kicking Arya off Sansa and Robert and Ned agree that they will each punish their children accordingly. But then Cersei interfers and demands a dead direwolf, and it takes a while for both Sansa and Arya to realise it is Lady Cersei is talking about. They agree for once that Lady should not be killed, and Sansa is distraught that Lady gets to bear the punishment for Nymeria's deeds.

Brief analysis:

Contrary to the other accompanying chapters, this is the only "adult" chapter, told from Ned's perspective. It makes the focus somewhat different.

The main thing to take away from this chapter's Arya bits, I think, is failed parenting. Here we have three parents: Robert, Ned and Cersei, and while Robert and Ned initially seem in agreement, Cersei demands a dead direwolf and doesn't care that it will hurt Sansa immensely.

We also have Arya and Joffrey more or less out of control, with their screaming match and Arya wrestling Sansa in the middle of a crowd. To be honest, one wonders why Ned hasn't tried to reign in Arya before (and impress upon Sansa to not change her story, too). Robert seems an indifferent father at best, and Cersei a biased and overprotective mother, to say the least.

Further, while Joffrey lies through his teeth here, Arya isn't telling the entire truth either. She claims Nymeria only bit him a little, but we know that this is not the truth. Then she charges Sansa with being a liar, but the fact of the matter is none of Joffrey, Arya and Sansa are telling the entire truth. Joffrey is by far the biggest liar, but Arya is lying too here to make herself appear better, and she lied about Nymeria running off earlier. We have the "some lies are better than other" thesis brought forward.

Again one has to wonder why such a form for the meeting was created, but then Robert hardly seems the sharpest tool in the box when it comes to thoughtful judgement. Or child rearing.

Arya II will be up tonight, in a similar form to Rapsie's post on Arya I.

[Ami Moonsinger]

I really love this re-reading Arya project. :D

I don´t think I am adding nothing new, but regarding Arya-Cat and Arya-Jon relationship is really call my attention in this chapter when Arya had doubts about her parenthood she went to Jon, in the other hand when Sansa had similar thoughts she went to her mother...

Arya POV: "A shade more fun than needlework," Arya gave back at him. Jon grinned, reached over, and messed up her hair. Arya flushed. They had always been close. Jon had their father's face, as she did. They were the only ones. Robb and Sansa and Bran and even little Rickon all took after the Tullys, with easy smiles and fire in their hair. When Arya had been little, she had been afraid that meant that she was a bastard too. It been Jon she had gone to in her fear, and Jon who had reassured her.

Sansa POV: Sansa could never understand how two sisters, born only two years apart, could be so different. It would have been easier if Arya had been a bastard, like their half brother Jon. She even looked like Jon, with the long face and brown hair of the Starks, and nothing of their lady mother in her face or her coloring. And Jon's mother had been common, or so people whispered. Once, when she was littler, Sansa had even asked Mother if perhaps there hadn't been some mistake. Perhaps the grumkins had stolen her real sister. But Mother had only laughed and said no, Arya was her daughter and Sansa's trueborn sister, blood of their blood. Sansa could not think why Mother would want to lie about it, so she supposed it had to be true.

It gives me the impression that Arya has never felt very accepted by Cat, to the point that she went to Jon, while Sansa had the expected behaiviour. Arya feels that not only she doesn´t have the "correct" demeanor and skills; even her look is not "right". Septa Mordane has a great influence reinforcing this insecurities, but they were planted in early years by Cat.

[Lyanna Stark]

It gives me the impression that Arya has never felt very accepted by Cat, to the point that she went to Jon, while Sansa had the expected behaiviour. Arya feels that not only she doesn´t have the "correct" demeanor and skills; even her look is not "right". Septa Mordane has a great influence reinforcing this insecurities, but they were planted in early years by Cat.

While I agree that the good Septa comes across as a very negative influence, I am not sure why you think Cat planted Arya's fears of not being good enough? In fact, it's Cat we see cutting off the Septa praising Sansa to ask about Arya, and as we know, Cat goes to great lengths later to try and save her daughters. In Sansa's chapter Cat laughs off the accusations, clearly thinking that even considering Arya being not her daughter is silly.

Do you have anything in the actual text that supports this view of Cat planting Arya's insecurities?

[1234567]

@ Lyanna

Great Review and Analysis. Looking forward to Chapter two.

Arya and Jon are once again established as outsiders and rule breakers, and also as northerners since they break the rules adhered to by Septa Mordane and Sansa, who both get to represent "southern values" here.

Further, we also have another negative description of Septa Mordane as a teacher. She comes off as unnecessarily strict and biased against Arya.

Septa Mordane really does not seem to get on well with Arya at all and it is little wonder that Arya is resentful. She has to repack her case because throwing her clothes in it is not what a "southron" lady would do. You really get a sense of Septa Mordane's antipathy towards the North. Also the Septa placing Arya folding her clothes above saying goodbye to Jon is also very telling.

I was afraid you were gone,' she said, her breath catching in her throat. 'They wouldn't let me out to say bood-bye.'

Was Septa Mordane one of thise who like Cat, though Jon should have been brought up elsewhere. Did the Septa reinforce the idea of Jon being only a half-brother with the girls?

What I find interesting about Jon and Arya is that neither seem to hold Septa Mordane as an authority figure worthy of respect. Both seem almost dismissive of her. While the Septa herself has been a hellish teacher for Arya, there is a sense that Arya views her as someone who she can defy or be rude to with ease. In these inbetween chapters we have Sansa covering for Arya again and twice doing so, so far would lead to an inference that this may have been quite a common occurrence. Indeed as we saw in the previous chapter, the only true authority figure for Arya is her mother. As a high Lord's daughter this makes sense to a degree, but given the environment they were travelling into and how dangerous Ned and Cat knew it would be, you would have assumed that they would have immpressed upon Arya that she did have to obey the Queen, King etc. And that they are above her and her parents in the social structure.

We also might get more of a background of Arya's behaviour on the Trident from her relationship with Septa Mordane. Like in the scene in the last chapter where Arya runs out saying she has to shoe a horse, she is used to defying authority figures she doesn't like in an antagonistic way. Joff and the Queen by this point have become similar antagonistic authority figures and we see Arya refuse a Royal Invitation (socially unacceptable) and also attack the Crown Prince (socially unacceptable). Ned has a lot of the blame for this.

Similar to the situation with Bran and climbing, Ned has a lax parenting style, where if a child continues to disobey, he just gives in to them. Cat seems to set more boundaries for her children, but then Ned undermines her by telling Bran not to let his Mother see him climb. If he does this with all the children then it is contentious as he and Cat have not presented a united front. On the journey south, without Cat, there is only Ned, who lets things slide. Arya is not punished but rewarded for her little disobediences all the way down the King's Road until the Trident incident.

The repercussion of Ned's parenting style is that Arya does what Arya wants and that includes acting rudely to authority figures with little consequence, until the fight at the Trident.

[Lummel]

I just wanted to add a couple of points to Lyanna's intermezzo.

First we know from Dunk and Egg The Hedge Knight that the punishment for hitting a Targaryen Prince was that the limb that struck the blow should be removed. Since Jon remembers the story of Aerion the Prince who wanted to be a dragon (the one who gets hit by Dunk) it seems fair to me to assume that the stark children are familiar with these stories and are aware that hitting Princes is a bad idea. Joffrey and Sansa may be tipsy but Arya's blood was clearly also up - but then they are all children. It's a familiar theme in ASOIAF that consequences can be out of all proportion to the original action.

This is the undisciplined wolf blood and we see this reflected in the direwolves in that Sansa chapter when Nymeria won't sit still to be brushed: "Sansa couldn't help but smile a little. The kennelmaster once told her that an animal takes after its master".

I liked this long section too about crossing the neck, the swampiness has just been described

None of which stopped Arya, of course. One day she came back grinning her horsey grin, her hair all tangled and her clothes covered in mud, clutching a raggedy bunch of purple and green flowers for Father. Sansa kept hoping he would tell Arya to behave herself and act like the highborn lady she was supposed to be, but he never did, he only hugged her and thanked her for the flowers. That just made her worse.

Then it turned out the purple flowers were called poison kisses, and Arya got a rash on her arms. Sansa would have thought that might have taught her a lesson, Arya laughed about it...

So both cases we might say that the results of education aren't always what is expected. The pupil doesn't learn the intended lesson.

Also Arya's playfulness is indulged. The swamp is dangerous. The Ned has said that the column should not be left - but he doesn't repeat that to Arya, leastwise not in Sansa's POV. Perhaps this is also another example of poor parenting?

[Lyanna Stark]

I just wanted to add a couple of points to Lyanna's intermezzo.

First we know from Dunk and Egg The Hedge Knight that the punishment for hitting a Targaryen Prince was that the limb that struck the blow should be removed. Since Jon remembers the story of Aerion the Prince who wanted to be a dragon (the one who gets hit by Dunk) it seems fair to me to assume that the stark children are familiar with these stories and are aware that hitting Princes is a bad idea.

Indeed. Arya running away also suggest she *does* know hitting princes is a very bad idea, but at the time, the "wolfblood" had the upper hand.

She also screams at Joffrey to stop with the reasoning that Mycah is her friend. Arya is here ignoring the social conventions that say Lords and commoners are on completely different levels of society and cannot per definition be friends. Note Mycah's defence "She asked me to". Arya could have told she ordered the butcher's boy to train with her, but she does not. Instead of invoking her social status and take responsibility as the one in charge, she places herself as Mycah's friend, lower on the social ladder. Or as it seems Joffrey is interpreting it: as if that means Mycah is trying to elevate himself to hers (Joff calls Mycah a butcher's boy pretending to be a knight).

This is also probably a reason why many readers want to free Arya from any responsibility for this situation and claim she did "the right thing". Within Westeros society though, it's not at all that clear cut. She hits the crown prince for the sake of a commoner who has just been hitting her with a stick. And she knows that it's a controversial decision to say the least, despite being given lots of leeway by Ned to dodge the rules almost constantly.

Also Arya's playfulness is indulged. The swamp is dangerous. The Ned has said that the column should not be left - but he doesn't repeat that to Arya, leastwise not in Sansa's POV. Perhaps this is also another example of poor parenting?

I think so. When rereading, I am always amazed with how nice and loving Ned is, but also how bad he is at enforcing the rules he claims are there. He talks the talk, (and sometimes he doesn't even do that) but he doesn't walk the walk.

[1234567]

It's also notable that Arya's first response in the situations so far observed, inflame the situation. Arya lashes out both verbally and emotionally.

She does not see class and yet her responses to others are influenced by her position in society. Mycah may have been a friend to her, but she was a high lord's daughter and one wonders to what extent he instinctively obeyed her. Sandor Clegane's comment that Mycah was her "pet" seems to illustrate that often the small folk are the playthings for Lords and Ladies. She may not have intended it as such, but to someone like Joff, Mycah and Arya's friendship was an affront to convention.

[Lummel]

I think you can be stronger than that. Mycah is one of King Bob's people, he's doing what the great lady asks him to do.

Arya is I think only nine, but Westeros is harsh place. Nine or not her actions have horrible consequences.

[Daphne23]

Thanks for the welcome, Manderly's Rat Cook! (Love the name...)

I agree with Lyanna Stark and Rapsie's analysis of Arya's role in the Trident fight. Arya's defence of Mycah highlights both her strengths and her weaknesses. Her lack of understanding of social hierarchy and its consequences is first illustrated in Arya I, firstly when she insists that '[Jon's] our brother', and secondly, when she can't understand why Jon has not been allowed to join in the fight in the yard, and Jon has to tell her that 'Bastards are not allowed to damage young princes' (which is a lesson Arya might have taken on board in how she deals with Joffrey's reaction to seeing her and Mycah fighting.)

I love that Arya is so idealistic, that she views the world in the way she thinks is fair and just, and doesn't want to make any compromises, that she refuses to let stereotypes about commoners and bastards affect the way she treats them. Unfortunately, we see in her chapter that her 'class-blindness' is all too real; rather than understanding the hierarchy and attempting to transcend it, Arya really is blind to many of the social rules of Westeros, and because of her privileged position, her mistakes hurt Mycah more than they hurt her. She's only nine years old, so I can't judge her too harshly, but sadly her impulsive actions in this chapter have unintended consequences that do partly stem from her challenge to Joffrey. Given that Sansa is so aware of social norms, it seems surprising that Arya is so blind in this respect, although I suppose this may be a result of her trying to be as different from Sansa as possible (I can imagine her deliberately being too 'stupid' to memorise heraldry, for example, although she's clearly bright enough to learn it!)

I agree that Ned and Catelyn should have tried to help Arya understand the ways of the world before this; although I imagine that Catelyn thought she would have Arya at home with her for at least a few more years.

[1234567]

I think you can be stronger than that. Mycah is one of King Bob's people, he's doing what the great lady asks him to do.

Arya is I think only nine, but Westeros is harsh place. Nine or not her actions have horrible consequences.

I think both Arya and Sansa reacted badly at the Trident (they were inexperienced with this type of nightmare) an the real blame lies with Joff. However I think you are right in saying that her being a High Lord's daughter gave him little choice if he didn't want to hang out with her. Actually this ties in with Jon's first experiences at the Wall before he has his chat with Donal Noye. While both Arya an Jon feel like outsiders at Winterfell, they still have incredibly privaledged upbringings.

Given that Sansa is so aware of social norms, it seems surprising that Arya is so blind in this respect, although I suppose this may be a result of her trying to be as different from Sansa as possible (I can imagine her deliberately being too 'stupid' to memorise heraldry, for example, although she's clearly bright enough to learn it!)

I wonder if this is to some extent author bias. Arya is already a likable character from her first chapter. There is almost no grey areas: the people she is rude to such as Septa Mordane and Joff and Cersei are already people we dislike. It is almost as if GRRM is pulling out all the stops to say you must side with this character.

[ASRAIL]

She also screams at Joffrey to stop with the reasoning that Mycah is her friend. Arya is here ignoring the social conventions that say Lords and commoners are on completely different levels of society and cannot per definition be friends. Note Mycah's defence "She asked me to". Arya could have told she ordered the butcher's boy to train with her, but she does not. Instead of invoking her social status and take responsibility as the one in charge, she places herself as Mycah's friend, lower on the social ladder. Or as it seems Joffrey is interpreting it: as if that means Mycah is trying to elevate himself to hers (Joff calls Mycah a butcher's boy pretending to be a knight).

This is also probably a reason why many readers want to free Arya from any responsibility for this situation and claim she did "the right thing". Within Westeros society though, it's not at all that clear cut. She hits the crown prince for the sake of a commoner who has just been hitting her with a stick. And she knows that it's a controversial decision to say the least, despite being given lots of leeway by Ned to dodge the rules almost constantly.

I think you're forgetting that at the time Arya is nine year old innocent and childly naive little girl. Yes, she could've told to Joffrey that Mycah is hitting her on her orders but she simply doesn't see the things from that perspective. To her he is not a peasant who is on a lower hierarchy step, he's truly her friend - the only one she currently have and this is more important than everything else. You can argue that she should know better living in such strongly dominated by class society but the again she is only nine. In fact her disregard of class prejudices is making her even more likeable to me.

In short I don't think we should hold against her her inability to bend the rules of the class hierarchy to her advantage because at that point she is just a little innocent girl playing with sticks with her friend.

[Lyanna Stark]

You can argue that she should know better living in such strongly dominated by class society but the again she is only nine. In fact her disregard of class prejudices is making her even more likeable to me.

I should remind you here that this is a reread that is based around textual analysis, and not on whether a character is likeable or not. As Rapsie pointed out in the first post, Arya is a fandom favourite. That is not disputed. What this reread is about is to look at why, analyse why and look at her character development.

In acting like she did, Arya is behaving in a very modern fashion, which resonates with us modern readers as that is our outlook. However, if we are looking at Westerosi customs, society and conventions, what Arya did is controversial at best and at worst illegal, as pointed out by Lummel and Rapsie above, too. (That doesn't change the fact that Joffrey is for a fact a little shit, either).

Arya clearly knows what she did is bad too, since she flees the scene and goes missing for days, obviously afraid of going back.

[Lummel]

...I wonder if this is to some extent author bias. Arya is already a likable character from her first chapter. There is almost no grey areas: the people she is rude to such as Septa Mordane and Joff and Cersei are already people we dislike. It is almost as if GRRM is pulling out all the stops to say you must side with this character.

Funnily enough we were saying the same in rereading Tyrion. It is really clear on the reread that GRRM has pulled out all the stops to get you to be sympathetic to the character. I do have some opinions as to why he's doing this and with precisely a certain group of characters and not others. Hopefully I can remember and outrage ninety percent of the fan base in a few books time! :laugh:

ETA - I don't think this is author bias, I'm sure GRRM knew exactly where he wanted to take those characters when he started out.

[Cruella]

She has to repack her case because throwing her clothes in it is not what a "southron" lady would do.

I don't know, can you imagine how hard it would be to straighten the clothes out, without modern tools? It is somebody's hard work, certainly not Arya's. Learning to fold your things neatly is also good practice in general. They aren't as easy to replace in Westeros, even for rich people. Everything's worth more, by virtue of no mass production.

"You rotten!" Arya shrieked. She flew at her sister like an arrow, knocking Sansa down to the ground, pummeling her. "Liar, liar, liar, liar."

Wow, that's pretty hardcore, isn't it?

I forgot how much.

Yes, I laughed too at how Nymeria only bit Joff a little. My tiniest dog once bit me seriously by accident, and I couldn't move my finger for couple of hours. She could crack bones easily, and she was barely up to my calf. Joff is portrayed as coward as well as bully here, but honestly most people would be crying pathetically at this point. One good bit from big dog can paralyze your hand for awhile.

[Little Wing]

Arya's repeated "flight" from unpleasant situations is interesting, from the septa and now from a serious confrontation - I didn't notice it till now: It's almost as if she is a "little bird" as well. She lashes out and then flees... Again the dichotomy, as Rapsie stated at the very start. She's brave and hot-headed enough to challenge authority but not mature enough to follow through, it seems, or to weigh the consequences of her actions at this point.

Ned's parenting seems to be by example - what I mean is, he lets his actions talk for him, as we have seen in Bran I, but it does seem he was in charge of the boys and Cat of the girls. I think both did well as parents. Challenging the rules of Westeros can't be a bad thing, seeing as those rules are fairly inhumane and realizing that is being perceptive and compassionate not so much modern or contemporary.

Septa vs Arya: Eh, as a teacher all I can say is that with a willful but friendly and intelligent child like Arya the derisive approach only makes the child in question worse... Making a reasonable argument why you want them to do something or why something is wrong usually works, instead of just stating that they're no good and that they should do something just because you say so - a poor practice all around. Asking what they think and how they would deal with a situation, challenging them and giving them an opportunity to express themselves the best way they can, and not only the way the teacher sees fit also works wonders.

Edit: spelling

[Lady Lea]

Everytime I read this chapter I'm bothered about the way Ned just lets his two young girls run around by themselves on the road. There are certainly plenty of unpleasant types hanging around, and Sansa and Arya are just children. Micah is 13 and much bigger than Arya. He could have really hurt her if he wanted. And Sansa going off with Joffrey alone? Doesn't Ned care about what people will say about her? Anything could have happened to Arya when she spent four days wandering the woods.

I get that Arya reminds him of his sister and it's very sad, yadda yadda, but he is her father and has an obligation to look after her. The only reason she thinks she can get away with hitting her social superior, ignoring the Queen and mouthing off to her teacher is because Ned was negligent in her upbringing. That was bound to have consequences, and it did. Arya could have lost a hand, and in the end Lady had to face the consequences.

Also, I've said this before but I think Sansa was right in saying she didn't remember anything. That way she took no sides. If she had backed Arya, she would piss off her future husband who was already angry with her. She was going to spend her whole life with him! I'm sorry but it was just not an option. And of course she couldn't have backed Joffrey because who knows what would happen to Arya and he was lying anyway. There was no way she could win here.

[Cruella]

I don't think anyone would be expected to reason much with children. Even in XVII century a grown woman when visited by mother would be still supposed to stand until permitted to sit down, if you met your parent on the street you were supposed to get down on your knees and wait for blessing, this kind of thing. Of course, it is Westeros and a bit difference - does anyone even beat these kids?

ETA: yeah, Arya doesn't know how to behave at all. Obv. I am against medieval version of parenting but in my woods you don't get away with acting like that either. It seems like apart from some ineffectual nagging from largely incompetent Septa kids were simply allowed to run on their own.