Heresy 28

[Melifeather]

Hah, whenever something's too logical I get all suspicious. But, no, I like these sets of three as well, but still think the 3EC/the Morrigan works in her own way and picks players to visit/guide on both sides in order to achieve balance in the end, the opposing sides being tools she/it works with and not the other way around - the Morrigan "working" for winter or any other side...

Do you see any evidence that the Morrigan is working with the south or fire elements?

[Little Wing]

Do you see any evidence that the Morrigan is working with the south or fire elements?

I've already given them in this thread - not working with them, but rather meddling with Dany. You can go back and read them.

ETA: Though I wouldn't call it evidence, now that I see you wish to see "evidence". Why would you need evidence, we don't need to agree on this, why should I prove anything? It's my opinion and speculation.

[Melifeather]

It wasn't an accusation or a demand. Just a curious inquiry.

[Babeldygob]

I have tried multiple times to start participating in this thread, but I seem to have missed so much. I want to contribute, because everything said here is very interesting. Tips on how to keep up? Can someone explain 'The Morrigan' to me?

[Little Wing]

Well, you can read up on the current thread, the Wikipedia link to the Morrigan has been linked several times throughout, and this thread is specifically about her.

[Black Crow]

I'm still inclined to see the Morrigan as "the Great Other" guiding the triple aspects of the Old Gods (clumsy phraseology I know) and their sustainable cycle of death and renewal, against the triple aspects of R'hllor. I do see it as a conflict and that the Morrigan's role is to lead, serve and protect Ice rather than serve as a balancing force for both Ice and Fire. That's not of course to prevent her trying to frustrate the opposing combination of Water, Iron and Fire by nobbling Danaerys.

Just to expand a little on my interpretation of the three pairings, whilst individually they're obviously opposed, I also think it significant that as we've discussed in the past Iron traditionally blocks Faerie magic and there's also a tradition that Faerie peoples cannot cross running water. Neither point could be considered a startling revelation, but it does argue for a certain consistency in the opposing groups

[Melifeather]

That was a very interesting read, that Morrigan link, and also the link within the link to the Roose Bolton/Washer women thread. Thank you, Little Wing, for providing the link.

Melisandre is very much like a Morrigan, and she fits the more war-like attributes that the "feared" version from traditional folklore presents.

With so many inspirations, I'm wondering now if there will be a single, albet 3-sided, Morrigan? GRRM has positioned many females with Morrigan-like characteristics, Sansa in particular, but we haven't been shown that Sansa is of a faerie race. I know Black Crow says the Morrigan has been at work with Sansa, but I think there's more to it than that.

There was mention of two faerie races in that link, and that one race was driven out for good by an invading race. The OP likened it to the Children of the Forest and the White Walkers, with the White Walkers being driven out by the First Men. Has anyone ever posed that maybe the Starks are actually a faerie race? Or maybe a hybrid between men and faerie?

[Melifeather]

I hope I'm not being too redundant. It could be there are representatives of the Morrigan on both sides.

Val is the Morrigan for ice, the Children, the WW, the First Men, for earth, for bronze

Melisandre is the Morrigan for fire, (no equivalent for Children), the Shadowbabies, the Andals, for water, for iron

[Little Wing]

I've come to see the Morrigan as above it all, motivating or guiding players (human and non-human) from both sides to an end only she/it knows -- not serving any faction so much as leading them on, so to say... Being the ultimate player, of the game of Ice and Fire. Again, just my opinion...

As to Sansa being connected to the Morrigan, as fine a post from the PtP thread on the link between Sansa and the Morrigan was, I'm inclined to think she won't be someone the Morrigan could use or work through. I think that by losing Lady her supernatural potential in the game is lost. But I am not diminishing her political influence in the game for the future.

[Melifeather]

I think the reason why I have so much trouble grasping everyone's ideas is because its so organic, and I need logic.

Another stumbling block for me regarding "water" is that water is also connected to the Children, to Arya, and to the moon, and the moon is associated with wolves howling, AND dragons being hatched from the moon.

[Little Wing]

That was a very interesting read, that Morrigan link, and also the link within the link to the Roose Bolton/Washer women thread. Thank you, Little Wing, for providing the link.

Melisandre is very much like a Morrigan, and she fits the more war-like attributes that the "feared" version from traditional folklore presents.

With so many inspirations, I'm wondering now if there will be a single, albet 3-sided, Morrigan? GRRM has positioned many females with Morrigan-like characteristics, Sansa in particular, but we haven't been shown that Sansa is of a faerie race. I know Black Crow says the Morrigan has been at work with Sansa, but I think there's more to it than that.

I think the fact that there are all these mirrors for the Morrigan in the story means we're on the right track, that GRRM is muddying the waters where it matters the most :)

[Little Wing]

I think the reason why I have so much trouble grasping everyone's ideas is because its so organic, and I need logic.

Another stumbling block for me regarding "water" is that water is also connected to the Children, to Arya, and to the moon, and the moon is associated with wolves howling, AND dragons being hatched from the moon.

Water does connect everything, supports life, extinguishes fire... Ah, I think the logic of everything will fall in place when we finish reading A Dream of Spring... if we could make out everything now, then we would have foiled GRRM and he has made sure we don't grasp anything! Don't worry, logic is overrated.

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

I'm having trouble reconciling the morrigan with what we know and what we've seen. If we're talking about another player, divine or otherwise, using people, animals, information to manipulate the story, then I'm all in. However, the morrigan controling the weather to give Sansa a snowflake is very much outside of the traditional mythology of any of the 3 aspects, and also far outside of all of the maneuvering in the book as well.

[Little Wing]

I'm having trouble reconciling the morrigan with what we know and what we've seen. If we're talking about another player, divine or otherwise, using people, animals, information to manipulate the story, then I'm all in. However, the morrigan controling the weather to give Sansa a snowflake is very much outside of the traditional mythology of any of the 3 aspects, and also far outside of all of the maneuvering in the book as well.

The gods, if they exist, do not work directly. GRRM has told us this.

Yep, this is what I'm thinking. Using people (we've mentioned Ygritte, Old Nan, Val, I added Quaithe, MMD and Missandei and who knows who else - Ghost of High Heart?) animals (the 3EC, direwolves, Mormont's raven...), non-humans (Coldhands?)

And agree on Sansa not being influenced or used by the Morrigan or the Morrigan serving Winter exclusively (edit). Also, on the pact that was mentioned, I'm more inclined to believe the Morrigan would have influenced the Last Hero instead of interfering directly with the making of the pact.

Again, using just a crow flying into the screen for the very first tease for GoT seems telling indeed.

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

You were too quick for me! That last line i wrote is not accurate and that's why I edited it out. GRRM said that we will never know when the God's do or do not exist, that it will be ambiguous. I was saying that this excludes direct intervention, but that is not entirely true. That's why I removed it.

[Melifeather]

That's how I feel about the dead direwolf scene...I see it as a message from nature, not the White Walkers. If "nature" is the Morrigan, then would that necessarily be considered "divine"?

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

That's how I feel about the dead direwolf scene...I see it as a message from nature, not the White Walkers. If "nature" is the Morrigan, then would that necessarily be considered "divine"?

Blasted! I nearly said 'divine or nature related' LOL

[7V3N]

One thing that really has continued to puzzle me is the ironmen. We see CPR revivals, almost like a magic-less "fire kiss" revival. We have Nagga's bones potentially being weirwood, but the stories suggest a sort of sea dragon/kraken. Not to mention the seastone chair supposedly already there, just waiting for someone to take a sit on it. We have wargs, dragon horns, blue lips, and a smiling (Crow's) eye (possibly a visit from the 3EC?). The iron men just confuse me. They have both First Men and Andal blood. They just seem too mixed up for me to throw them in with the Red Lot as of yet. Maybe after we know more about Euron (specifically his blue lips and supposed trip to Valyria) I can agree, but I'll wait on it.

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

Maybe we can pull it back and identify why we made the Morrigan connection in the first place.

- Crow References

- Val and her sister are different from the wildlings

- Val manages to survive several nights in the huanted forest and return with Tormund despite wights, and white walkers

- 3 female aspects of the 7 match the 3 aspects of Morrigan.

I'm missing a lot. Help me out here.

[Melifeather]

One thing that really has continued to puzzle me is the ironmen. We see CPR revivals, almost like a magic-less "fire kiss" revival. We have Nagga's bones potentially being weirwood, but the stories suggest a sort of sea dragon/kraken. Not to mention the seastone chair supposedly already there, just waiting for someone to take a sit on it. We have wargs, dragon horns, blue lips, and a smiling (Crow's) eye (possibly a visit from the 3EC?). The iron men just confuse me. They have both First Men and Andal blood. They just seem too mixed up for me to throw them in with the Red Lot as of yet. Maybe after we know more about Euron (specifically his blue lips and supposed trip to Valyria) I can agree, but I'll wait on it.

I think their claim to "iron", and "water" being the opposite of earth is how they've been added to the "fire" side. As pirates, they're opportunists, taking from either side.