Heresy 28

[redriver]

Ser Waymar was using the word dance as a common Westerosi similie for fight. When he said "dance with me" he was inviting Craster's boy - who did after all already have his sword in his hand to step forward and dance/fight.

The snowflakes, both on the Eyrie and at the Wall were dancing enticingly in the air. Sansa let one enter and land on her tongue to effect what appears to have been a transformaton which has been likened to a communion, receiving what we at first abstractly referred to as Winter, but now more properly appears to be the Morrigan inside her.

Similarly, Jon is going to receive that same communion soon:

"A snowflake danced upon the air. Then another. Dance with me, Jon Snow, he thought. You'll dance with me anon."

What transformation has occurred with Sansa?It has eluded me that she has transformed into a magical entity.

This is where Heresy takes ideas then turns them into facts,a platform to build further heresies on.

And is the Dance with me quote not a memory of something Ygritte said?

[Lummel]

There is an interesting discussion of the snow castle scene here.

[redriver]

An excellent thread Lummel.Thanks for the link.

I think the snow castle chapter is full of metaphor and foreshadowing too,and points to her return to Winterfell and dealing with Littlefinger there.

I don't see any transformation into,or influence by, a magical entity here though.

The snowflake symbolizes recognition and reaffirmation of her Starkness to me.

[Lummel]

The snow castle incident begins with

...she turned her face up to the sky and closed her eyes. She could feel the snow on her lashes, taste it on her lips. It was the taste of Winterfell. The taste of innocence. The taste of dreams.

When Sansa opened her eyes again, she was on her knees. She did not remember falling. It seemed to her that the sky was a lighter shade of grey. Dawn, she thought. Another day. Another new day...

Her memories of her siblings in Winterfell seem similar to me to Jon's in Jon XIII ADWD. The I will dance with you anon is a play on what Alys Karstark said to him at her wedding feast rather than Ygritte.

Anyhow. You can understand all this symbolically, snow - winterfell - the call and strength of home, family values and priorities, even in Sansa's case the renewed internalisation of those ideas. Equally you can look at that and take it literally. They are both engaging with Winter as an actual force that has motive power in this world. Sansa swallows the snowflake and is possessed by Winter. Jon contemplates dancing with Winter, he feels they belong together.

Winter presumably would be a counterpoint to R'hllor and what ever magic power the red priests are drawing on.

Well you've paid your money and can take your choice. Since this is a heresy thread it can hardly be building facts. Facts in Westeros can't be heresy by definition :). It isn't compulsory to agree with what even we call heresy! Take it or leave as you please...

[Melifeather]

I very much enjoyed the link, Lummel, and also the link within the link to tze's shipping of Jon to Sansa. Very convincing.

[Lummel]

Shipping? Oh dear, I didn't think that was Tze's intent! :(

But good threads and good posts.

[Little Wing]

While I agree with Sansa's communion by snowflake to be a transforming, significant event, I don't necessarily think it has to do with the Morrigan entering her. I don't think the Morrigan "works" exclusively for Winter or for the Starks, or for the red lot -- let's not forget, all crows lie...

I think the Morrigan/3EC is above it all, whispering advice disguised in prophecy to various players, not actually taking sides but being the balancing power behind everything.

Sansa losing her wolf is significant and I believe her connection to the Morrigan is lost, her supernatural role in the game is lost... but her political role is indeed important and her communion with the snowflake was there for her to remember who she is...

Edit: spelling

[Melifeather]

She mentions it right from the beginning. The "pomegranate" they both encounter was interesting, and they both rejected them. She mentions that in mythology, Persephone is offered a pomegranate and then becomes Queen of the Underground and Queen of Spring. Littlefinger offered Sansa a literal pomegranate, and Jon has to deal with the "Old Pomegranate". Jon has been lifted to Lord, and Sansa has become a bastard. They are each other's reflections, at the very least.

[Black Crow]

While I agree with Sansa's communion by snowflake to be a transforming, significant event, I don't necessarily think it has to do with the Morrigan entering her. I don't think the Morrigan "works" exclusively for Winter or for the Starks, or for the red lot -- let's not forget, all crows lie...

An interesting suggestion, but while acknowledging its possible Dany is being guided, I still see the Morrigan/Crow as part of the Celtic/natural cycle or balance side of the story; the Great Other holding Winter and Spring together against R'hllor who wants to destroy the balance forever and usher in the everlasting summer.

As I said earlier identifying the Crow as the Morrigan and therefore a major player in its own right rather than a mere avatar for the dead guy in the tree makes so much sense - and explains Old Nan's joke about Crows being liars.

[Little Wing]

Oh, I agree, I think the Morrigan's role in guiding Dany serves for her to eventually turn against the red lot (mayhaps going down with them?). Quaithe says Dany should go to Asshai to find truth - that may be finding out about Jon or seeing for herself what the everlasting summer entails (or both)... the part where she says it's Asshai and GRRM said we won't see it may be the part where the crow is lying to Dany...

[Black Crow]

Going a little further on the question of the Morrigan, we've also got the linked questions of how the Children saved the Last Hero and how the Long Night was ended and the Sidhe persuaded to withdraw northwards.

The answer to the first is probably straightforward in that Bran recalled how Old Nan had told him the Childern saved the Last Hero. No doubt they did so by giving him shelter within one of their hollow hills, but that doesn't then explain how the war was ended or what sort of influence the Children were able to exert on the Sidhe to persuade them to go home.

However now we've identified the Crow as the Morrigan surely that is the answer, that it was the Crow who intervened, laying down the terms - and the duties, incumbent upon the parties.

[Melifeather]

Another one of the analogies from the Sansa link, was that she made three snowballs, pushed them together and packed snow around them. Surely this is the opposite of the dragon has three heads? The North will also have three heads that join together and embrace the snow. I'm thinking the three snowballs are Sansa, Arya and Rickon, held together with Jon's snow, since Robb is dead and Bran will fulfill a different position.

[Black Crow]

Not to mention the three human aspects of the Morrigan, as maiden, mother and crone.

[Little Wing]

Going a little further on the question of the Morrigan, we've also got the linked questions of how the Children saved the Last Hero and how the Long Night was ended and the Sidhe persuaded to withdraw northwards.

The answer to the first is probably straightforward in that Bran recalled how Old Nan had told him the Childern saved the Last Hero. No doubt they did so by giving him shelter within one of their hollow hills, but that doesn't then explain how the war was ended or what sort of influence the Children were able to exert on the Sidhe to persuade them to go home.

However now we've identified the Crow as the Morrigan surely that is the answer, that it was the Crow who intervened, laying down the terms - and the duties, incumbent upon the parties.

Hm... I'd go with the Morrigan guiding the Last Hero - maybe he had prophetic dreams or a mysterious woman giving him cryptic pointers on where to go, who to take and such... mayhaps it would be too much of an interfering to broker the pact in person?

[Melifeather]

I'm conflicted over the positioning of the Morrigan as the balancing force, since I think that's the role/position I was thinking the Stark family once had. The Morrigan should be the representative of Ice. If the Starks are the representative of Ice, then what was their ancient purpose? Furthermore,would that make the Night's King's actions an overstepping of his authority?

I agree that the Stark's garner strength from snow and ice. These are their weapons. But, the White Walkers are even more so Ice.

I'm confused. Has anyone really made sense of this yet?

[Little Wing]

Feather, that's a speculation on the Morrigan, no need to take it as fact. Look at the text with some of the stuff we've dug up on the Morrigan and make connections of your own :)

I personally see her/it as a balancing force, a balancing between life and death, constant renewal, acknowledging Winter and Spring as Black Crow has said, seeing an everlasting Summer (no death) as a disruption of this balance. Same goes for an everlasting Winter. Taking only one side seems... I don't know - unwise? But, who knows...

[Black Crow]

I refer to my post #311 suggesting that the Morrigan is running the show and suggest another look at the rule of three, and this time the oath sword by the Reeds:

I swear it by earth and water

I swear it by bronze and iron

We swear it by ice and fire

The way its worded together with the whole business of the Song of Ice and Fire suggests the last is the important one. Clearly they're opposites but look at it this way:

Earth - those who sing the song of Earth are the Children

Bronze - the First Men

Ice - the white lot from up north

All three linked by the Morrigan, who herself has three human aspects and opposed to the other three:

Water - the Ironborn and other followers of the Drowned God

Iron - the Andals

Fire - the Red Lot

It won't of course have escaped your attention that the latter three are in the process of uniting.

[Melifeather]

Let just say Val is the Morrigan. What was she doing with Mance? One role of the Morrigan is to lead a king...am I right? Did she truly think Mance was a king-beyond-the-Wall? Or did she sense there was something "fire" about him? Why doesn't Melisandre sense Val's true identity?

My earlier post wasn't so much denying the evidence for the Morrigan being the balancing force, but rather wondering what was the position and purpose of the Kings of Winter? Perhaps if the Starks are "ice", they then sacrificed as a means to keep their balance?

[Melifeather]

I refer to my post #311 suggesting that the Morrigan is running the show and suggest another look at the rule of three, and this time the oath sword by the Reeds:

I swear it by earth and water

I swear it by bronze and iron

We swear it by ice and fire

The way its worded together with the whole business of the Song of Ice and Fire suggests the last is the important one. Clearly they're opposites but look at it this way:

Earth - those who sing the song of Earth are the Children

Bronze - the First Men

Ice - the white lot from up north

All three linked by the Morrigan, who herself has three human aspects and opposed to the other three:

Water - the Ironborn and other followers of the Drowned God

Iron - the Andals

Fire - the Red Lot

It won't of course have escaped your attention that the latter three are in the process of uniting.

OK, these are new thoughts to me, and I like them very much. I like the groupings of three. My mind needs things that are logical in order to sort something out.

[Little Wing]

Hah, whenever something's too logical I get all suspicious. But, no, I like these sets of three as well, but still think the 3EC/the Morrigan works in her own way and picks players to visit/guide on both sides in order to achieve balance in the end, the opposing sides being tools she/it works with and not the other way around - the Morrigan "working" for winter or any other side...