Melifeather Posted November 15, 2012 Share Posted November 15, 2012 Maybe we can pull it back and identify why we made the Morrigan connection in the first place.- Crow References- Val and her sister are different from the wildlings- Val manages to survive several nights in the huanted forest and return with Tormund despite wights, and white walkers- 3 female aspects of the 7 match the 3 aspects of Morrigan.I'm missing a lot. Help me out here.No, I totally see Val as one aspect of the Morrigan. But, I cannot deny that I see aspects of the Morrigan in many other female characters...too many. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7V3N Posted November 15, 2012 Share Posted November 15, 2012 Maybe we can pull it back and identify why we made the Morrigan connection in the first place.- Crow References- Val and her sister are different from the wildlings- Val manages to survive several nights in the huanted forest and return with Tormund despite wights, and white walkers- 3 female aspects of the 7 match the 3 aspects of Morrigan.I'm missing a lot. Help me out here.Really the best thing to do is reread. If we sit here repeating everything then the threads sort of lose their purpose.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little Wing Posted November 15, 2012 Share Posted November 15, 2012 Maybe we can pull it back and identify why we made the Morrigan connection in the first place.- Crow References- Val and her sister are different from the wildlings- Val manages to survive several nights in the huanted forest and return with Tormund despite wights, and white walkers- 3 female aspects of the 7 match the 3 aspects of Morrigan.I'm missing a lot. Help me out here.I think the turning point has been the Morrigan's relationship to Cu Chulainn (Jon) - warning him, seducing him, making prophecies...all the time guiding him, I guess. So, why? What is the motivation? I also see the trio in Dany's story, but that's just me. Also, Black Crow has suggested the Morrigan may be the Great Other of sorts, that if there is a greater power, it won't be revealed in the 2 books that are left, but that it's someone/something we've already encountered, so maybe it's the 3EC/the Morrigan, through all it's forms? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik Posted November 15, 2012 Share Posted November 15, 2012 Really the best thing to do is reread. If we sit here repeating everything then the threads sort of lose their purpose..My concern is that we've gone off the rails. The Morrigan is a war deity. What links Sansa's snowflake to a war diety, or a links the Morrigan to winter at all? If the connection is Sansa herself representing an aspect of the Morrigan, I can totally see that, however that means from the direction we've taken that shes sending herself snowflakes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little Wing Posted November 15, 2012 Share Posted November 15, 2012 The Sansa thing is something I for one don't see, and it made me think more on the subject, challenging it a bit... This is Heresy, if there's something you found to blast this, go for it!I like it myself and if the 3EC is the Morrigan (GRRM may have modified it so it's more than a war deity? but still makes sense, all these people do is fight...) and is above both Ice and Fire, then the Great Other and R'hllor really are one and the same - her/it. Dunno, seems too much, I know, but I like it!Edit: spelling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7V3N Posted November 15, 2012 Share Posted November 15, 2012 My concern is that we've gone off the rails. The Morrigan is a war deity. What links Sansa's snowflake to a war diety, or a links the Morrigan to winter at all? If the connection is Sansa herself representing an aspect of the Morrigan, I can totally see that, however that means from the direction we've taken that shes sending herself snowflakes.With all the talk of the Morrigan, I wanted to mention a post that I made on the "FPTP: Rethinking Sansa" thread awhile back. I had been asked by Brashcandy to look into the Morrigan in relation to Sansa, and Cú Chulainn to Sandor. Not saying it's perfect or anything (though it was fun to research), but it might make an interesting read if you want to take a look.The link is here if anyone would like to see it:http://asoiaf.wester...20#entry3691990 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik Posted November 15, 2012 Share Posted November 15, 2012 Indeed. However, there is the problem again. Sansa as an aspect of the Morrigan is one concept. The morrigan sending Sansa a snowflake is completely different concept that evolved out of that post.My question is that how did we get from Sansa represents an aspect of the Morrigan, to the Morrigan is sending Sansa a snowflake? The 3 eyed crow, from whom the introduction of the Morrigan was based on has always acted through dreams.The other instances of snowflakes, Jon 'dancing' with his, Rob's melting are Morrigan related as well? Why does the 3 eyed crow interact with Bran as a crow, and to others as snowflakes. The connection there is broken in my opinion since the entire morrigan connection is made from the crow initially. Otherwise all we have are a bunch of horny women interested in Jon :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little Wing Posted November 15, 2012 Share Posted November 15, 2012 Yep, that's the Sansa/Morrigan post I'm not buying. Made me think that the Morrigan may not be exclusively tied to Winter or any faction. Having this initiation of sorts with Winter may not necessarily entail a relationship to the Morrigan per se, I'm thinking. If the Morrigan intends to meddle with Dany too through Quaithe perhaps, then it may have an agenda of its own. And it may be all encompassing, not just concerned with one faction. Sending dreams or whispering prophesies to whom the 3EC sees fit to accomplish its endgame - balance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted November 15, 2012 Share Posted November 15, 2012 I am in the process of reading the books a third time. I've just read the sequence when Bran is unconscious and the 3EC is teaching him to fly. The impaled dreamers, this time around, seem to me to be other potential, greenseers that were given a choice, like Bran, to "fly or die". Bran chose to "fly" and avoided dying. Right before he regains consciousness, he sees that the 3EC is a female. I understand that he recognizes a female servant at Winterfell, but I think it also confirms the 3EC as a female with long, dark hair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted November 15, 2012 Author Share Posted November 15, 2012 The original identification of the Morrigan was down to me realising that that it often appears as a crow, but has three human aspects; maiden, mother and crone, hence the three eyes on the crow. Not entirely accurate perhaps but it set us on the right track.As to the snowflake communion, this is of course something which came up long before the Morrigan connection was made and while such things are not necessarily associated with the "real" Morrigan we have to remember that this is Martin's creation and that while the Morrigan (and the Sidhe) provide models, they're not identical.GRRM was brought up a Catholic so the concept of a communion, an oral receiving of the holy spirit, is very familiar to him, and in considering whether "our" Morrigan can manipulate snow-flakes in this way we need to remember that the Others/Sidhe apparently do just that - I refer of course to the uncertainty as to whether they come with the cold or bring it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik Posted November 15, 2012 Share Posted November 15, 2012 Thanks Black Crow, that clears things up a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted November 15, 2012 Author Share Posted November 15, 2012 You were too quick for me! That last line i wrote is not accurate and that's why I edited it out. GRRM said that we will never know when the God's do or do not exist, that it will be ambiguous. I was saying that this excludes direct intervention, but that is not entirely true. That's why I removed it.This is essentially what I was arguing a few pages back. This story is going to be resolved by the characters we've grown up with rather than through guest appearances by deities; that however doesn't preclude those characters being manipulated or guided by the Three-Eyed Crow.ETA: and with that to bed, and if you lot tip this one over into 19 pages by morning I'm going to have to start drafting the OP for Heresy 29. I'll try and make it a little more original this time... Good Night all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik Posted November 15, 2012 Share Posted November 15, 2012 GOOD!? NIGHT!?! Full of terrors man... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted November 15, 2012 Share Posted November 15, 2012 I think we can agree that the Morrigan is manipulating people. It revealed herself as a crow with three eyes to Bran, and it appears that she's taken the form of Val. She's helped move the wildlings south. I think Nan was also a form taken by the Morrigan to manipulate the Stark children through more than one generation.It'll be interesting to see if Bran remains with the Children, or is this just part of his training? In his unconscious state, he "looked into the heart of winter" and it made him afraid enough to cry. The crow then said to him, "Now you know why you must live. Winter is coming." That phrase still sounds ominous, like he should fear winter. Fear of dying made Bran fly. Fear of winter will make Bran ______? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little Wing Posted November 15, 2012 Share Posted November 15, 2012 Night! Okay, won't post, time to slow down, sorry if my ramblings confused and terrified(?) anyone :laugh: (In my defense, I'm a bit of a right-brain thinker - can't analyze shit, that's left-brain folk) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik Posted November 15, 2012 Share Posted November 15, 2012 It'll be interesting to see if Bran remains with the Children, or is this just part of his training? In his unconscious state, he "looked into the heart of winter" and it made him afraid enough to cry. The crow then said to him, "Now you know why you must live. Winter is coming." That phrase still sounds ominous, like he should fear winter. Fear of dying made Bran fly. Fear of winter will make Bran ______?Interesting that we get snowflakes with Jon, Robb, and Sansa. Sansa in partiuclar recalls all of the things that snowflake tastes like. Bran does this with the Weirwood Paste. At first it tastes bitter, but then sweet, and then it tastes like all the wonderful things he remembers from home. His appears to be a communion with summer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted November 15, 2012 Share Posted November 15, 2012 Interesting that we get snowflakes with Jon, Robb, and Sansa. Sansa in partiuclar recalls all of the things that snowflake tastes like. Bran does this with the Weirwood Paste. At first it tastes bitter, but then sweet, and then it tastes like all the wonderful things he remembers from home. His appears to be a communion with summer.I know, right? Bran is shown the heart of winter and it scares him. Jon and Sansa get positive messages from snow. Why did the crow have to scare him with snow? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little Wing Posted November 15, 2012 Share Posted November 15, 2012 Interesting that we get snowflakes with Jon, Robb, and Sansa. Sansa in partiuclar recalls all of the things that snowflake tastes like. Bran does this with the Weirwood Paste. At first it tastes bitter, but then sweet, and then it tastes like all the wonderful things he remembers from home. His appears to be a communion with summer.Hm, this reminds me of the symbolism of the persimmon tree - I've looked it up because Quaithe stood beneath one when appearing to Dany - and it symbolizes transformation and it's to do with bitterness becoming sweet:In Buddhism, the persimmon is used as a symbol of transformation. The green persimmon is acrid and bitter, but the fruit becomes very sweet as it ripens. Thus, man might be basically ignorant but that ignorance is transformed into wisdom as the persimmon’s bitterness is transformed into sweet delicious fruit.I said I wouldn't post, but this was just...too cool to pass! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik Posted November 15, 2012 Share Posted November 15, 2012 I know, right? Bran is shown the heart of winter and it scares him. Jon and Sansa get positive messages from snow. Why did the crow have to scare him with snow?It's been a while since I've read his first flight, but was he drawn to the heart of winter or compelled towards it? Could greenseers be vulnerable to winters lure? As you said all those others were impaled on similar flights, apparently to the heart of winter as well.I could see why Jon would get to 'dance' with snowflakes, and Why they would Melt with Robb who has the auburn kissed-by-fire-ish hair, as does Bran the summer child. However, why Sansa with winter? Doesn't she have even more reddish hair than her mother? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik Posted November 15, 2012 Share Posted November 15, 2012 Hm, this reminds me of the symbolism of the persimmon tree - I've looked it up because Quaithe stood beneath one when appearing to Dany - and it symbolizes transformation and it's to do with bitterness becoming sweet:I said I wouldn't post, but this was just...too cool to pass!I've read that exact section due to the Quaithe appearance, and then never made the connection :blushing: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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