Jon and Jaime doing the right thing?

[Summer is Ending]

Pretend all you like Kingslayer is ever thinking of the greater good but he didn't care about the smallfolk or the realm. He wanted to go to war with Robert from the second he found out he was cheating on her.

One night she had Jaime follow him, to confirm her suspicions. When her brother returned he asked her if she wanted Robert dead. “No,” she had replied, “I want him horned.” She liked to think that was the night when Joffrey was conceived.

The man loves war. He's not even content simply besieging Riverrun he has to run around killing those smallfolk you think he's so worried about and burning their lands and letting his men rape their wives and daughters.

Kingslayer cared about himself and Cersei and that's it. Not his bastards, not the realm. He'd have happily charged off to wherever Robert was and cut him down in an instant. It was always Cersei stopping him.

[Winter's Knight]

That would be VERY risky.

The kid will eventually say something by accident, and given that Cersei already bitched at Jaime about how much the kids look like him, and the fact that Stannis, Arryn, and Ned figured it out...

Well, talking the kid out of telling, or scaring him away from tattling are only going to be a temporary solution.

Jaime made The Right Choice.

It was a evil choice, but nonetheless it was Right.

If I remember right, Stannis fled KL rather than confront Robert, even though he had more proof than a child's confused tale. He wasn't confident enough to confront Robert, even though he could reasonably point to Jon A'd death as proof that the Lannisters were offing everyone who knew.

Realistically speaking, a boy who's barely seven is not a good witness.

[redviper9]

Yeah, this is probably the first time I've ever said this on the forum, but Cersei had the right of it, at least regarding Jaime pushing Bran out the window. He's a seven-year-old kid. I'm sure if Cersei, as queen, would have told Bran not to tell anyone, he likely would have stayed quiet (something tells me that Ned raised those kids to respect the orders of royalty). And if he did talk, just tell everyone that he misunderstood what he saw; after all, he was seven years old!

Winter's Knight's point about Stannis -- who had as much evidence as could be hoped for -- not telling Robert is also good. Of course, part of the reason Stannis ran might be his frosty relationship with Robert; I sometimes get the impression that the fighting Baratheon brothers would call each other liars for claiming the sky is blue. We know Robert loved Ned, and that might, might, have lent some credibility to Bran. But still, he's a seven-year-old kid who could hypothetically make a shocking claim about the queen. As much as I love Jaime's arc since he lost his hand, and though I can see what prompted his decision, even I won't try to justify what he did to Bran.

[Light a wight tonight]

I never got that impression.

Like I said before, had he not pushed Bran the realm would have bled, he made The Right Choice.

I don't think Jaime gave it that much thought. It was more like "If this kid tells, Cersei and I are in deep shit." Jaime wasn't much of a thinker at that point.

And I don't see why the realm would have bled. Would Tywin have revolted if the twincest had been revealed and the twins executed? If King Bob somehow had a rush of brains to the head he could have been merciful and sent Jaime to the Wall and Cersei to the Silent Sisters, which should have appeased Tywin.

If Jaime and Cersei had been shortened by a head, how much support would Tywin have had for a revolt? I imagine all his neighbors would have been eager to attack him and grab some of the famous Lannister gold. The Tyrrells would have been on Bob's side just to get Margaery married to Bob. Dorne may hate the Lannisters even more than they do the Baratheons. The Tullys are aligned with the North, who are with Bob, and the Vale is ruled by a Tully. Leaving the Iron Islands?

[Winterfellian]

About Jaime, he's my favorite character after Jon but I don't agree with the OP's reasoning.

Jaime pushing Bran was a vile act in every way done more out of rashness than anything else. He wasn't thinking; he simply pulled a Jaime and reacted without giving much thought about possible repercussions.Tyrion, Cersei and the Blackfish all describe Jaime as impatient and rash, more prone to act impulsively rather than assess something calmly. I see no point in white washing the fact that he pushed a kid to his death.

So far I think Jaime's in a process of self awareness. He's realizing that the person he is now is not all that he can be or what he wanted to grew up as a kid. This new awareness has prompted his better side to come out and has given him encouragement to reevaluate his role as a knight and a Kingsguard. This might lead to a path of redemption in time. but so far I don't think he's there yet.

[Bobby Strong]

About Jaime, he's my favorite character after Jon but I don't agree with the OP's reasoning.

Jaime pushing Bran was a vile act in every way done more out of rashness than anything else. He wasn't thinking; he simply pulled a Jaime and reacted without giving much thought about possible repercussions.Tyrion, Cersei and the Blackfish all describe Jaime as impatient and rash, more prone to act impulsively rather than assess something calmly. I see no point in white washing the fact that he pushed a kid to his death.

So far I think Jaime's in a process of self awareness. He's realizing that the person he is now is not all that he can be or what he wanted to grew up as a kid. This new awareness has prompted his better side to come out and has given him encouragement to reevaluate his role as a knight and a Kingsguard. This might lead to a path of redemption in time. but so far I don't think he's there yet.

Spot on in my opinion. I believe Jaime only thinks about the people he cares about (Cersei, Tyrion, Brienne), while Jon is thinking about the greater good for the realm, aside from a couple slip ups.

[JaegrM]

I simply refuse to believe that Jaime had no notion of the consequences of letting Bran go.

I'm not saying he ran through a whole hypothetical scenario right then and there in the tower, but Cersei and he have been lovers for decades and have had a very long time to consider the dangers and consequences of discovery.

[Winterfellian]

I simply refuse to believe that Jaime had no notion of the consequences of letting Bran go.

I'm not saying he ran through a whole hypothetical scenario right then and there in the tower, but Cersei and he have been lovers for decades and have had a very long time to consider the dangers and consequences of discovery.

Actually, I always got the feeling that it was Cersei the one who worried the most about the repercussions. After Robert's death Jaime was all for "let's let everyone know about us/the Targaryens married within themselves..." and Cersei was always the one to refused. At one point he even considers telling Tommen and wonder if the boy would value more the crown over a father. This made me think that Jaime didn't consider the dangers of his relationship with Cersei as much as she did herself.

[JaegrM]

Actually, I always got the feeling that it was Cersei the one who worried the most about the repercussions. After Robert's death Jaime was all for "let's let everyone know about us/the Targaryens married within themselves..." and Cersei was always the one to refused. At one point he even considers telling Tommen and wonder if the boy would value more the crown over a father. This made me think that Jaime didn't consider the dangers of his relationship with Cersei as much as she did herself.

I didn't see it as he didn't consider the consequences, but more as he was willing to do whatever had to be done if they were to come out with their relationship.

[Summer is Ending]

Tyrion could think of something clever now, but all that occurs to me is to go at them with a sword.

That is the Kingslayer. If he couldn't charge it or threaten it or kill it he didn't know what to do. He was not a man to think of possibilities or consider consequences. It took the loss of his hand and perhaps more importanly the loss of Cersei leading him around by the cock to actually start doing his own thinking.

[Fwaatcha]

I'm sorry OP , you need to stop. You can not compare a spoiled bastard brat with a self made man.

Jon = brat

Jaime = self made man

Apple and oranges to say the least

Also

Hey split decision!!!! Some kid just caught you fucking the kings wife , your sister, he is on the ledge of a very high tower, what do you do?

There is no thinking about it ,you will die if he tells, Jaime being a knight and trained in arms is impulsive , he pushed Bran.

I would have done the same in his situation.

Edit-

In ADWD, Jaime , in his thoughts, states to himself that he will let the truth be told about his children and means to tell it.

[houseHB]

Jaime will be Jon's lord commander of the Kingsguard

[Foxhound]

The son of the most powerful lord in the realm is a "self made man"?

And the idea that if you put yourself and your family in danger through a reckless and selfish act that it's suddenly okay to murder your way out of that situation is just insane.

[redviper9]

I'm sorry OP , you need to stop. You can not compare a spoiled bastard brat with a self made man.

Jon = brat

Jaime = self made man

Apple and oranges to say the least

Also

Hey split decision!!!! Some kid just caught you fucking the kings wife , your sister, he is on the ledge of a very high tower, what do you do?

There is no thinking about it ,you will die if he tells, Jaime being a knight and trained in arms is impulsive , he pushed Bran.

I would have done the same in his situation.

There are many words and terms that can be used to describe Jaime Lannister; self-made man is not one of them. He was born the heir to the richest and most powerful paramount lord in Westeros. His natural talent with a sword is undeniable, but I don't think it would have been noticed and developed if he had born in Flea Bottom like Davos Seaworth (someone who is deserving of the self-made man label).

Jaime's decision to push Bran out the window was vile and indicative of someone who, at least at that point in the story, does not think things through (something that was used against him by Robb and the Blackfish at the Whispering Wood). Cersei -- who isn't exactly praised on this forum as a paragon of decision-making abilities -- is right to call Jaime out for the rashness of his action. I do think that both of them realized that their heads would be on spikes if Bran told, but there might have been ways of defusing the situation that didn't involve the attempted murder of a seven year old kid.

Going back a bit towards the OP, Jon showed some rashness in AGoT, particularly when he decided to desert the Watch. He of course was talked off the metaphorical ledge by his Sworn Brothers. That, coupled with his time with the Wildlings, was the turning point for Jon. You see him thinking things over more and it dawns on him that decisions aren't always a matter between choice A and choice B. It's very similar to the point made earlier by another post about Jaime becoming more self-aware after losing his hand and the souring of his relationship with Cersei.

[Fwaatcha]

The son of the most powerful lord in the realm is a "self made man"?

And the idea that if you put yourself and your family in danger through a reckless and selfish act that it's suddenly okay to murder your way out of that situation is just insane.

Jaime is or is not one of the best swordsman in the realm?

Jaime is the youngest to ever join the Kingsguard?

Jaime is one of the best in tourneys?

The list goes on and on.

Did we read the same books? Are we speaking the same language?

Are you one of those posters who will rag on people if they incline that your favorite character is not so great as you thought he was?

Jaime may owe some of what he has become to his father(oppurtunity wise I guess) , should this diminish his skill at the sword which has brought him to where he is now?

[redviper9]

Jaime is or is not one of the best swordsman in the realm?

Jaime is the youngest to ever join the Kingsguard?

Jaime is one of the best in tourneys?

The list goes on and on.

Did we read the same books? Are we speaking the same language?

Are you one of those posters who will rag on people if they incline that your favorite character is not so great as you thought he was?

Jaime may owe some of what he has become to his father(oppurtunity wise I guess) , should this diminish his skill at the sword which has brought him to where he is now?

I don't think Foxhound diminished Jaime's natural ability with a sword. I think that he -- and I -- just believe that it's not correct to attach the "self-made man" label to an individual that was born into extreme wealth and afforded opportunities that only a few could dream of.

And while you're right in pointing out that Jaime became the youngest member of the Kingsguard ever, it wasn't his talent with a sword that won him the spot. He was picked precisely because his name was Lannister and because Aerys II knew it would piss Tywin off. Remember his reflections when first leaving Harrenhal (ASoS, Jaime VI):

"That was the first time that Jaime understood. It was not his skill with sword and lance that had won him his white cloak, nor any feats of valor he'd performed against the Kingswood Brotherhood. Aerys had chosen him to spite his father, to rob Lord Tywin of his heir."

[Fwaatcha]

Going back a bit towards the OP, Jon showed some rashness in AGoT, particularly when he decided to desert the Watch. He of course was talked off the metaphorical ledge by his Sworn Brothers. That, coupled with his time with the Wildlings, was the turning point for Jon. You see him thinking things over more and it dawns on him that decisions aren't always a matter between choice A and choice B. It's very similar to the point made earlier by another post about Jaime becoming more self-aware after losing his hand and the souring of his relationship with Cersei.

Please stop with your unbiased Jon love.

Jon would be hanged if his friends/brothers didn't stop him from trying to go join Robb.Jon wasn't turning back.

Impulsive yes.

Jon gets the letter from Winterfell at the end of ADWD (Ramsay's letter).

His reaction was so impulsive that he declares , in a packed room full of Night'sWatch brothers and some of Stannis' knights, that he will go and rescue his sister and would like to have some volunteers come with him.

Wake up call!

If I'm a man of the NW do you know what I'm thinking? I'm thinking this teenager is going to get me killed if I keep following him.

What do I care about his highborn sister?What do I care about who she married?Why should I starve to feed wildlings?That's a giant isn't it?What the fuck is he doing here!

No , Jon isn't impulsive.

Jon and Jaime being compared is like comparing a snark to a grumplin.

Please stop doing it.

[Fwaatcha]

Self made man might not be the right word for people being so literal.

The facts as they stand now are that Jaime excels in the positions that he has aquired through his house.

Meanwhile at the wall...

[Ingelheim]

They have their own code. I think that is all. After reading SoS, for example, nobody say that Jaime or Jon have no honor. They do the things they believe are right.

Jon could have married Val, and have beatiful sons and daughters, he could be warden of the North and Lord of Winterfell, he could return home. But he couldn't, because Jon thought (and still thinks) that became the new Lord of Winterfell would be an affront to Robb, and to the NW.

[David Selig]

I'm thinking that Jon Snow and Jaime Lannister, while maybe not the most honorable characters, are the characters most inclined to do the right thing, no matter what.

Your Jaime fanboyism is getting embarrassing.

How do you explain the slaughter of Jory and the other two Ned retainers?

What's next, Jaime is the smartest character in the series? The best father? The best fighter even after losing his hand?