Jon and Jaime doing the right thing?

[redviper9]

Please stop with your unbiased Jon love.

Jon would be hanged if his friends/brothers didn't stop him from trying to go join Robb.Jon wasn't turning back.

Impulsive yes.

Jon gets the letter from Winterfell at the end of ADWD (Ramsay's letter).

His reaction was so impulsive that he declares , in a packed room full of Night'sWatch brothers and some of Stannis' knights, that he will go and rescue his sister and would like to have some volunteers come with him.

Wake up call!

If I'm a man of the NW do you know what I'm thinking? I'm thinking this teenager is going to get me killed if I keep following him.

What do I care about his highborn sister?What do I care about who she married?Why should I starve to feed wildlings?That's a giant isn't it?What the fuck is he doing here!

No , Jon isn't impulsive.

Jon and Jaime being compared is like comparing a snark to a grumplin.

Please stop doing it.

Easy there, fella. While I do admit to liking Jon as a character, I acknowledge his faults in my post, and I have acknowledged his faults in other threads. I described his decision to desert as rash, and I give his friends -- not him -- credit for bringing him back.

And while to me he has -- similar to Jaime -- become a more deliberate decision maker, I didn't say that the choices he made were right, or that they didn't have unintended consequences. You bring up his decision to meet Ramsay, which can be interpreted as a very rash choice. However, Castle Black itself had been threatened, Jon didn't ask anyone to go with him, and he talked things over with Tormund. Now, Jon should have realized that Marsh and co. wouldn't be happy with the choice, but the events at the end of Jon's final chapter in ADwD are much more about Bowen Marsh being a scum than anything else.

And I think a discussion of Jon and Jaime's decision-making process and their personal codes is a valid one. Here are two characters who because of unforeseen events and unexpected leadership responsibilities have been forced to take stock of the best way to approach problems that present themselves. They are in far different places now than when they were when we first met them in AGoT, and it is interesting to attempt to find the similarities -- and differences -- in their arcs.

[Ingelheim]

Your Jaime fanboyism is getting embarrassing.

How do you explain the slaughter of jory and the other two Ned retainers?

What's next, Jaime is the smartest character in the series? The best father? The best fighter even after losing his hand?

He thinks the people can change, like me. What Jaime did was wrong, he was a murderer, but I think he is now a great guy and a good man. At the end, He will be remembered as a hero, not as the Kingslayer, in my opinion.

[Foxhound]

Jaime is or is not one of the best swordsman in the realm?

Jaime is the youngest to ever join the Kingsguard?

Jaime is one of the best in tourneys?

The list goes on and on.

Did we read the same books? Are we speaking the same language?

Are you one of those posters who will rag on people if they incline that your favorite character is not so great as you thought he was?

Jaime may owe some of what he has become to his father(oppurtunity wise I guess) , should this diminish his skill at the sword which has brought him to where he is now?

Self made man might not be the right word for people being so literal.

The facts as they stand now are that Jaime excels in the positions that he has aquired through his house.

Meanwhile at the wall...

I guess I'm speaking English and using words correctly and you aren't. You declared Jaime a self made man, don't complain when people point out he isn't.

[Foxhound]

I'm sorry OP , you need to stop. You can not compare a spoiled bastard brat with a self made man.

Jon = brat

Jaime = self made man

Apple and oranges to say the least

Yeah a lot of content and arguments there. If you want to ignore people who point out your mistakes I couldn't care less.

[Fwaatcha]

Easy there, fella. While I do admit to liking Jon as a character, I acknowledge his faults in my post, and I have acknowledged his faults in other threads. I described his decision to desert as rash, and I give his friends -- not him -- credit for bringing him back.

And while to me he has -- similar to Jaime -- become a more deliberate decision maker, I didn't say that the choices he made were right, or that they didn't have unintended consequences. You bring up his decision to meet Ramsay, which can be interpreted as a very rash choice. However, Castle Black itself had been threatened, Jon didn't ask anyone to go with him, and he talked things over with Tormund. Now, Jon should have realized that Marsh and co. wouldn't be happy with the choice, but the events at the end of Jon's final chapter in ADwD are much more about Bowen Marsh being a scum than anything else.

And I think a discussion of Jon and Jaime's decision-making process and their personal codes is a valid one. Here are two characters who because of unforeseen events and unexpected leadership responsibilities have been forced to take stock of the best way to approach problems that present themselves. They are in far different places now than when they were when we first met them in AGoT, and it is interesting to attempt to find the similarities -- and differences -- in their arcs.

True , Castle Black was threatened but he did ask for volunteers from the Night Watch. Re-read Jon's last chapter in ADWD. In the Shield Hall he asks for men.

As for discussions of Jon and Jaime are concerned, it very hard to find unbiased posts due to the fact so many people fall in love with some of these characters.

I am merely trying to wake some people up from there crushes and see if we can get more objective points of view in these forums.

This reminds me of the Arya's Destiny thread (http://asoiaf.wester...-aryas-destiny/)

I make one comment about Arya heading down a dark path and there's 15 pages of posts about how she isn't.

It's hard to find unbiased opinions and other such substantial opinions/comments about a character on these forums as of late.

[Stormcloak]

I don't really see the comparison, the only morally dark thing Jon's ever done is separating Gilly from her child and he did that to save Mance's. He has other failings and he isn't perfectly honourable but I can't think of anything else cruel and clearly immoral.

That's not in the same league as Jaime throwing Bran from the window, lying to Tyrion about Tysha, committing incest with the Queen that led to war, intending to kill Arya just to please Cersei, killing Jory and the Stark men to make a point and threatening to deliver Edmure's newborn child via catapult.

Jaime has done redeeming things, killing Aerys and stopping his wildfire plot was his finest act and respect where it's due he's protected Brienne, settled the siege without a fight at Raventree and freed Tyrion but he's got a long way to go. Jon saved Lord Mormont from an assassination (which funnily enough is more than Jaime ever did guarding a King) and by infiltrating the Wildings he saved Castle Black, then led the defence of the wall and had the vision to make peace with WIldlings against a common enemy so he has feats of his own too. In my book Jon's the better man and since Jaime's missing a hand he's also the better swordsman.

Now everyone is going to jump on the whole throwing Bran from a window thing as clear evidence that Jaime is scum and does the opposite of The Right Thing, but let's look at it from a logical standpoint; Jaime's POVs show that he's a pretty intelligent guy, so he's smart enough to know that if Bran were to tell anyone what he saw that he and his family would be put to death.

We can assume that since he knows his father pretty well that this would lead to war.

By throwing Bran from the window he saves an untold number of lives. He also clearly doesn't want to do it, but knows he must, he does it with loathing.

Everyone always ignores the third option, Jaime could've fled with Cersei and the children before Bran found the nerve to tell anyone and between his skills and Lannister gold been safe in exile in the Free Cities. The Lannisters would've been disgraced but Tywin and Robert wouldn't have ended up at war over it because Tywin wasn't to blame.

I think he chose his family's privilege over Bran's life, not the lives of others over Bran's.

[JaegrM]

I don't really see the comparison, the only morally dark thing Jon's ever done is separating Gilly from her child and he did that to save Mance's. He has other failings and he isn't perfectly honourable but I can't think of anything else cruel and clearly immoral.

That's not in the same league as Jaime throwing Bran from the window, lying to Tyrion about Tysha, committing incest with the Queen that led to war, intending to kill Arya just to please Cersei, killing Jory and the Stark men to make a point and threatening to deliver Edmure's newborn child via catapult.

Jaime has done redeeming things, killing Aerys and stopping his wildfire plot was his finest act and respect where it's due he's protected Brienne, settled the siege without a fight at Raventree and freed Tyrion but he's got a long way to go. Jon saved Lord Mormont from an assassination (which funnily enough is more than Jaime ever did guarding a King) and by infiltrating the Wildings he saved Castle Black, then led the defence of the wall and had the vision to make peace with WIldlings against a common enemy so he has feats of his own too. In my book Jon's the better man and since Jaime's missing a hand he's also the better swordsman.

Everyone always ignores the third option, Jaime could've fled with Cersei and the children before Bran found the nerve to tell anyone and between his skills and Lannister gold been safe in exile in the Free Cities. The Lannisters would've been disgraced but Tywin and Robert wouldn't have ended up at war over it because Tywin wasn't to blame.

I think he chose his family's privilege over Bran's life, not the lives of others over Bran's.

I didn't say anything about either of them being morally dark.

I said that instead of being guided by honor, they're guided by doing The Right Thing.

The Right Thing obviously depends on where you're standing though, Throwing Bran from a window was The Right Thing for Jaime to do in order to protect his family.

Jon promising to burn Gilly's baby was The Right Thing to do in order to protect Mance's son and keep Mel from burning any babies.

Neither of these characters base their decisions off of what honor would dictate they do, but neither do they base their choices off of selfish what is best for themselves motives.

They base their choices off of what's Right.

And IMO that is what's required of a hero.

As for Jaime and Cersei fleeing...

That's all good in theory, but

1)They didn't come to Winterfell with fleeing the continent in mind and are not likely prepared to do so

2)Even if they had everything they needed, Cersei would never agree to flee

3)Even if she somehow was convinced, do you really think they'd be able to escape without being captured? They have to gather up enough of their things, the children, etc. and escape from under a man's roof who is likely looking for you.

[butterbumps!]

I simply refuse to believe that Jaime had no notion of the consequences of letting Bran go.

I'm not saying he ran through a whole hypothetical scenario right then and there in the tower, but Cersei and he have been lovers for decades and have had a very long time to consider the dangers and consequences of discovery.

We know that Jaime did not think through the consequences of his action. He does it because he thought it was what Cersei would have wanted, as others have pointed out. With regard to your other post that asserted he had some sort of notion that he'd be preventing war in this way (by protecting the secret and not fighting over succession), wouldn't the "noble"/ "right" thing to do is fall on your sword, confess to incest and then don't subsequently challenge the authorities about your family's claim/ go to war?

Please stop with your unbiased Jon love.

Jon would be hanged if his friends/brothers didn't stop him from trying to go join Robb.Jon wasn't turning back.

Impulsive yes.

Jon gets the letter from Winterfell at the end of ADWD (Ramsay's letter).

His reaction was so impulsive that he declares , in a packed room full of Night'sWatch brothers and some of Stannis' knights, that he will go and rescue his sister and would like to have some volunteers come with him.

Wake up call!

If I'm a man of the NW do you know what I'm thinking? I'm thinking this teenager is going to get me killed if I keep following him.

What do I care about his highborn sister?What do I care about who she married?Why should I starve to feed wildlings?That's a giant isn't it?What the fuck is he doing here!

No , Jon isn't impulsive.

Jon and Jaime being compared is like comparing a snark to a grumplin.

Please stop doing it.

True , Castle Black was threatened but he did ask for volunteers from the Night Watch. Re-read Jon's last chapter in ADWD. In the Shield Hall he asks for men.

As for discussions of Jon and Jaime are concerned, it very hard to find unbiased posts due to the fact so many people fall in love with some of these characters.

I am merely trying to wake some people up from there crushes and see if we can get more objective points of view in these forums.

This reminds me of the Arya's Destiny thread (http://asoiaf.wester...-aryas-destiny/)

I make one comment about Arya heading down a dark path and there's 15 pages of posts about how she isn't.

It's hard to find unbiased opinions and other such substantial opinions/comments about a character on these forums as of late.

Not that there isn't merit in your doing the lord's work here and giving everyone a wake-up call to become unbiased, but such an assertion falls flat when you miss crucial points with regard to the characters' traits you're criticizing strongly. Just as you assert how irked you are when posters are biased, which prevents discussion, I get somewhat confused when someone makes strongly worded assertions that are wrong about a character when said poster aspires to give everyone else a "wake-up call" about looking at the text more objectively.

Jon is explicitly not impulsive beginning from around the end of aGoT onward. His transformation from impulsive to almost cold is a really significant part of his arc; in fact, some of us who've looked at his character evolution pretty closely found him to be almost too cold toward the end.

Jon would have deserted if his friends hadn't swayed him back; this was an impulsive decision. But the fact that it comes up as "proof" of his impulsiveness in every Jon thread is really strange, as this event is significantly different than anything that happened afterward and not part of an ongoing pattern.

[David Selig]

Let's look at Jaime's track record over the years. Some examples off the top of my head where he clearly didn't do what I consider the right thing morally (and I am not even going to touch on the whole thing with Bran):

1) Telling Tyrion Tysha was a prostitute. Even a guy like him not used to using his brain much should've easily realised this would really mess up Tyrion. Jaime was already in the kingsguard at this point, he could've easily said "No" to his father.

2) Fathering Cersei's children. It was always a huge risk the whole thing will end up in massive war.

3) Killing Ned's men

4) Invading the Riverlands, leading foraging raids, etc

5) Having sex with Cersei in a sept while their son was lying dead next to them

6) Freeing Tyrion from the prison - yeah, I know he was innocent of regicide, but as far as Jaime knew, he was convicted both by men and by the gods, and Tyrion even admitted it to Jaime. yet Jaime let him go. Even though Tyrion, as far as Jaime know, has murdered his son and committed the two worst crimes in Westeros - kinslaying and regicide.

7) Hanging the "broken men" he came across in the Riverlands without a second thought

[Summer is Ending]

It actually would have been interesting to see what would have happened if say Bran had gotten away and told his father. We know the disastrous lengths Ned went to protect Kingslayers bastards already but to actually have them under his roof enjoying guest right?

[Fwaatcha]

Jon would have deserted if his friends hadn't swayed him back; this was an impulsive decision. But the fact that it comes up as "proof" of his impulsiveness in every Jon thread is really strange, as this event is significantly different than anything that happened afterward and not part of an ongoing pattern.

Last Chapter ADWD - Jon

He does the same impulsive thing

He is taking the Night's Watch to war and asking for volunteers.

He is impulsive , there is a pattern, he has not out grown anything.

"Lord Princess Snow"

[DaeneryStormBorn]

It's hilarious (and quite disturbing) to see people trying to justify Jaime's intent to kill innocent child. You know what would have been the logical thing to do? Not fucking your sister, who is married to the King, under someone else's roof in the first place.

Don't even try to compare him to Jon. Jon was following the path of his father which is to do what is right. He is not perfect but he is much better then Jaime.

:agree:

[setmyheartafire]

I think dismissing the change in Jaime shows how good a villain he started out as. People saw him doing these awful things and so they can't really forgive him.

Personally Jaime's chapters are always some of my favorites, least not because I knew he would eventually turn on evil Cersei. Not because he's become some pious guy but because it was only a matter of time before she betrayed him just as she betrayed Robert. Since Tyrion commented about the Kettleblacks Jaime has been seeing Cersei for what she is: manipulative, narcissistic, and cruel. He was spurned and so now is not blind to these sides of his twin lover.

But yet he has been trying to change too. It's unforgivable to push a child off a tower. To kill Ned's men. Etc. but truly yes... he was trying both times to protect his family. And I think it's rich to condemn him for taking out Aerys as Aerys was a total lunatic. Sometimes honor does not coincide with what is right and sorry but it was right to off the crazy king and his pyromancer.

Another favorite Jaime moment was with Brienne and the bear. I thought this spoke volumes for the changes he is trying to make to show he is not the worst person he is thought to be.

I think he has grown but I don't know if I can call it redemption... unless he puts his life on the line for Bran or even Jon...

[butterbumps!]

Last Chapter ADWD - Jon

He does the same impulsive thing

He is taking the Night's Watch to war and asking for volunteers.

He is impulsive , there is a pattern, he has not out grown anything.

"Lord Princess Snow"

I don't get what this means: "Lord Princess Snow"

Just for clarity, impulsive does not mean "breaking vows," as it seems this is a confusing distinction for you. Impulsive describes the manner in which something is done, and in this case, the description of the process through which Jon came to his similar choices both times are different. The end of DwD is not impulsive, and he spends damn near 3/4 of his arc being anything but impulsive.

I'd be happy to go into this further, but as it is quite obvious that you are not looking to engage except to complain about "Jon Snow love," I'm going to have to pass on my "wake up call."

[DaeneryStormBorn]

IMO Jaime turning point is when he lost his good hand. When Cersie despised him for what he have become, he became useless to cersie, This is when he started to really change, all the things he do for love was all for nothing.

[DaeneryStormBorn]

He thinks the people can change, like me. What Jaime did was wrong, he was a murderer, but I think he is now a great guy and a good man. At the end, He will be remembered as a hero, not as the Kingslayer, in my opinion.

No he will always be remembered as a Kingslayer

[Fwaatcha]

IMO Jaime turning point is when he lost his good hand. When Cersei despised him for what he have become, he became useless to cersie, This is when he started to really change, all the things he do for love was all for nothing.

I was just thinking of posting something along these lines.

For the most part Jaime seems to be in his most villainous state of mind when he is around Cersei (women drive men nuts).

When you see Jaime out in the Riverlands he seems to be in a much better state of mind.

Jaime pushing Bran, Cersei was there and he did it because he thought that was what she wanted.

Without his love around , Jaime is a true knight..

There was a comment about Jaime threatening to hurl a Tully baby by catapult.

This was merely a bargaining strategy, whether or not he would do it , I think he would . The reason he said it though was to resolve the matter peacefully.

As far as killing Jorry , shit happens , the reason Jaime was messing with Ned Stark that day was because Cate had abducted Tyrion.

Jorry was a casualty of war.

Speaking of catapults , Barristan Selmy watches Darrio fly from one at the end of ADWD.

Who were the other hostages with Darrio?They flew as well.

[Ned's Epic Beard]

Let's look at Jaime's track record over the years. Some examples off the top of my head where he clearly didn't do what I consider the right thing morally (and I am not even going to touch on the whole thing with Bran):

1) Telling Tyrion Tysha was a prostitute. Even a guy like him not used to using his brain much should've easily realised this would really mess up Tyrion. Jaime was already in the kingsguard at this point, he could've easily said "No" to his father.

2) Fathering Cersei's children. It was always a huge risk the whole thing will end up in massive war.

3) Killing Ned's men

4) Invading the Riverlands, leading foraging raids, etc

5) Having sex with Cersei in a sept while their son was lying dead next to them

6) Freeing Tyrion from the prison - yeah, I know he was innocent of regicide, but as far as Jaime knew, he was convicted both by men and by the gods, and Tyrion even admitted it to Jaime. yet Jaime let him go. Even though Tyrion, as far as Jaime know, has murdered his son and committed the two worst crimes in Westeros - kinslaying and regicide.

7) Hanging the "broken men" he came across in the Riverlands without a second thought

Not to mention he broke his oath with cat when he threatened Admure and blackfish. He is only fooling himself if he thinks that he kept that oath.

[JaegrM]

Not to mention he broke his oath with cat when he threatened Admure and blackfish. He is only fooling himself if he thinks that he kept that oath.

Sarcasm?

[Ned's Epic Beard]

Sarcasm?

Not at all!