Tyrion: A Clean Record (almost)

[Quentyn Baratheon]

We're not given a specific age for Allyria but since she is the sister of Ashara and Arthur Dayne, it's extremely unlikely she is anywhere near Sansa's age.

I rtied to find back where I read that, and the bit about the age come from a theory/heresy thread I bookmarked recently. My bad.

[Kolantero]

I'd rather not try to make character judgements based on the behavior of a person whose job is basically to present whatever face their client desires for extended periods of time. What, you want her to cry or something? Why would she do that, she has a job to do and she must please her new masters so she did it. People seem to want her to be tearful or mouthing words to Tyrion or something. Why?

Also, the method they used to coerce her may not have been so traumatic as to make her crack in public. Not least because they don't have to threaten her. The power of the Lannisters is a constant presence the the palace. Phrases like "A Lannister always pays his debts" are not-so-subtle reminders of this. Shae might have been offered the carrot, but she would be an idiot to think that the stick was also handy.

No i don't want her to cry but i would have thought that a person who does not want to do something but is doing it mainly because of the "stick" (and would not have done it if it was just the carrot) would not give such an excellent performance.

@ Lyanna

Because the Lannisters always pay their debts, and we know how that normally turns out. Poisoned gifts, quite often. Also, Shae is not an idealistic blue-eyed little girl. There is no need to threaten her with bodily harm for her to realist that if she goes along, there is a chance of "carrot", but if she does not, then it will be the "stick". Not rocket science to figure this one out.

Same answer as above (to Castel).

So, the material point is: what reasons do Shae have, logically and realistically, for choosing the stick instead of the carrot in this situation? She does not love Tyrion. She doesn't really owe him anything since he removed her jewels when she was turned into Lolly's maid. So instead she has what reason to go against Cersei and Tywin and risking what Alayaya got?

So you said that Shae has no empathy and would hurt others for financial gain. Here you are saying that she has no motive to protect Tyrion and on the contrary she has (financial) motive to testify against him. And the conclusion is that the "stick" is the deciding factor and not the "carrot"? With what you said so far yourself you believe that Shae wouldn't have chosen the "carrot" if there was no "stick"?

The reason he kills her is because she had humiliated him. Shae's testimony was not needed. Tyrion was done for anyway. Humiliation is not a valid reason for murder.

I know i already agreed with this earlier.

If you think he had valid reasons to kill her, then you are saying she deserved to be killed.There is just no way around that.

No these two are not the same thing. For example:

Unknown Soldier #1357 is obligatorily conscripted in Stannis army and follows him in his attack on KL.

Unknown Archer #4563 who voluntered to defend KL (his hometown) with the Lannister army kills Unknown Soldier 1357.

Did Archer #4564 had valid reasons to kill Soldier #1357? Yes he was defending his hometown and his family

Did Soldier #1357 deserved to die? No he didn't even want to be there.

This has nothing to do with Shae-Tyrion's case i am just bringing an example to pinpoint the differences between "Shae deserved to be killed" and "Tyrion had valid reasons to kill her" (Even though like i said he kills her for another reason)

[Lyanna Stark]

@ Lyanna

So you said that Shae has no empathy and would hurt others for financial gain. Here you are saying that she has no motive to protect Tyrion and on the contrary she has (financial) motive to testify against him. And the conclusion is that the "stick" is the deciding factor and not the "carrot"? With what you said so far yourself you believe that Shae wouldn't have chosen the "carrot" if there was no "stick"?

That's rather beside the point, since the actual situation is that there was a carrot, and a stick. What Shae would have done in another situation is therefor completely irrelevant. Would she have chosen the red dress, or the blue, if it had rained that day? Also irrelevant. The point here is: we can be reasonably sure that Shae knew of the carrot and the stick both. Hence the "choice" in this case is a non choice really.

And "hurt" here is emotionally hurt, we do not see Shae actually using violence against anyone.

No these two are not the same thing. For example:

Unknown Soldier #1357 is obligatorily conscripted in Stannis army and follows him in his attack on KL.

Unknown Archer #4563 who voluntered to defend KL (his hometown) with the Lannister army kills Unknown Soldier 1357.

Did Archer #4564 had valid reasons to kill Soldier #1357? Yes he was defending his hometown and his family

Did Soldier #4564 deserved to die? No he didn't even want to be there.

You compare Tyrion's feeling of humiliation with a war where two armies clash?

This has nothing to do with Shae-Tyrion's case i am just bringing an example to pinpoint the differences between "Shae deserved to be killed" and "Tyrion had valid reasons to kill her" (Even though like i said he kills her for another reason)

Well, if your example is to be believed, then the Tyrion and Shae are both like soldiers in an army, with little decisive power of their own, paid to kill eachother. Only this is of course not true, since Tyrion and Shae have no relationship of that sort. Tyrion has nobody above him ordering him to kill Shae, unlike the soldiers in your example. His decision to kill Shae is completely his own, hence the moral responsibility is also completely his own.

Shae's "crime" is that she did not love him, she was not loyal to him, and when offered a reward by Cersei with a stick on the other side, she had no compunction about mocking him publicly. She certainly wasn't Tyrion's friend, but should we expect her to be? Because she was mean to him, Tyrion killing her is understandable and has a valid excuse? Does this mean going around killing mean people is understandable and valid, too?

[Kolantero]

That's rather beside the point, since the actual situation is that there was a carrot, and a stick. What Shae would have done in another situation is therefor completely irrelevant. Would she have chosen the red dress, or the blue, if it had rained that day? Also irrelevant. The point here is: we can be reasonably sure that Shae knew of the carrot and the stick both. Hence the "choice" in this case is a non choice really.

And "hurt" here is emotionally hurt, we do not see Shae actually using violence against anyone.

So if someone offers me 1000 pounds to do a crime and i do it for the money i am guilty

But If someone offers me 1000 pounds to do a crime, and i also know that he is dangerous and will kill me if i don't do it, which doesn't change the fact that i would do it for the money anyway, i am innocent

The "would do it" is hypothetical in Shae's case but so is the opposite (would not do it for just the "carrot"). My conclusion is based on her character we agreed she has (and i would say testifying to send unfairly a man to his death counts as indirect violence).

You compare Tyrion's feeling of humiliation with a war where two armies clash?

Well, if your example is to be believed, then the Tyrion and Shae are both like soldiers in an army, with little decisive power of their own, paid to kill eachother. Only this is of course not true, since Tyrion and Shae have no relationship of that sort. Tyrion has nobody above him ordering him to kill Shae, unlike the soldiers in your example. His decision to kill Shae is completely his own, hence the moral responsibility is also completely his own.

Shae's "crime" is that she did not love him, she was not loyal to him, and when offered a reward by Cersei with a stick on the other side, she had no compunction about mocking him publicly. She certainly wasn't Tyrion's friend, but should we expect her to be? Because she was mean to him, Tyrion killing her is understandable and has a valid excuse? Does this mean going around killing mean people is understandable and valid, too?

No i brought that example to show the difference between "valid reason to kill X" and "X deserved to be killed"... Nothing else.

Valid reason for Tyrion to kill Shae: She testified against him and helped convict him to death even though she was his employee (regardless of whether he would be convicted anyway)

Actual reason Tyrion kills Shae: Humiliation and perceived "betrayal of their love"

Reason Shae did not deserve to die: She was just looking out for herself, she wasn't actually in love with Tyrion and I wasn't expecting something else from Shae, her actions were reasonable.

[Gannicus]

"A life of complete shit" how? The alternatives were?

Being sent home, or at least to Riverrun. Or married Lancel, who could not consummate the marriage (and lter did not consummate with Gatehouse Ami).

Really, you think being sent home was an option? Please. Tywin Lannister was pulling the strings and Lancel and Tyrion were his two best options. Tywin's plan is to have Sansa carry another Lannister. He even tells Tyrion he will do the deed himself. Sansa is doomed to be with a Lannister. Tyrion is well aware of this but at least has the decency to treat her kindly and not force himself on her.

Sansa had about as much say in her marriage as her Aunt Lysa, and Tyrion is almost as big a pawn in it. He doesn't want to marry her either, but he's a realist and tries to see the positives in the match.

Tyrion is also clear on that he cannot protect her from Joffrey once Joff comes of age. He thinks about moving to Braavos. Joff promises Sansa that he will force himself on her once he comes off age, and Tyrion would not be able to stop the king.

He thinks about moving Braavos to protect her. Is that somehow a bad thought?

Also, your claim about Sansa not being exploited is clearly contradicted by Sansa herself, since she is very clear on that she WAS exploited, she HATED that she had to be married to Tyrion. The only way to reach your conclusion is to completely ignore Sansa as a person, her happiness, her wishes etc. and to deny her any choice.

It's not that I think Sansa isn't exploited, it's that she is not exploited by Tyrion. She is exploited by Tywin, Cersei, Joffrey, Baelish, and more, but Tyrion proves time and again to be more of a shield than anything else.

Plus of course, as Robb and Cat figured out, Tyrion could not go north with Sansa. Sansa would be forever trapped in the south with Tyrion. Tywin also states it when he says tyrion can go north with a grandson of Eddard Stark. Not with Sansa. The only reason to be "safe" of a Lannister in Winterfell is to keep her in the south, and should things go really bad, to kill her once she had produced a couple of heirs. This is the political reality. Sansa was to be a hostage and a Lannister broodmare for life.

Agreed. And who's plan was that? Now if that is Tywin's plan what is this nonsense about her being able to go home?

Interestingly, the same would probably had happened had the Tyrells got the hands on her, only then she would have had to stay in Highgarden with Willas instead. Realpolitik is nasty business.

The life of a high born lady is rough.

But in no way did Tyrion "help" Sansa by marrying her, nor did he prevent the exploitation possibilities. The fact that he did refuse to consummate speaks to the fact that he refuses to violate another bride of his, the way Tywin wanted to. Tyrion is still bitter that Sansa cannot love him though, so his expectations on the marriage is really, really off.

Tyrion knows Lancel was boinking his sister. He has no idea that Lancel has changed his stripes. Tyrion is one of the only members of the family that has treated Sansa with any decency. So he believes he is saving her from an even worse situation.

The fact that he doesn't consumate the marraige under tremendous pressure should not be under stated. Sansa would have done her "duty" unhappily as many ladies in Westeros do. Call it rape if you will, but Tyrion didn't, so bravo to him.

Unfortunately we have to hear about what a dick Tyrion is for being involved in a plot to exploit her and deny her happiness. The reality is Tyrion had little control in any of that.

[Scipio Africanus]

Unfortunately we have to hear about what a dick Tyrion is for being involved in a plot to exploit her and deny her happiness. The reality is Tyrion had little control in any of that.

He did have control, he had the option to refuse and even said so on their wedding day. But then Tywin would've given Sansa to Lancel he would've been stuck with Lollys (or so Tywin threatened I believe). In the end he chose for Sansa, for a lot of obvious reasons.

Tyrion was most certainly disappointed in Sansa from day 0. He expected her to do her duty to him yet he also knew that not only his looks were off putting (says so himself when he wants to bed her) he also knows Sansa wouldn't be none too keen on being married to a guy who's family is trying to kill her kin (mentions it several times including to Tywin). Yet for some reason he doesn't really grasp all that, most likely because he wants to be loved and he feels he deserves it.

[Stannis ftw]

Lol, at a forum where Lord Tywin´s genocidical tendencies are frequently brushed aside because, well, he made those trains run on time, there is a 18 page discussion of Tyrion´s dark side w/ things like objectifying women, visiting a whore house, being part of (in that context) super-standard marriage pact, threatening somebody, maybe feeling good about something, and slapping Shae. Talk about double standards :laugh: Oh yeah, one guy even criticized him for burning hundreds of people - in battle situtation.

Not saying Tyrion has a "clean slate" or anything close to it. Killing Tywin and Shae clearly is a beginning of a dark spiral down for him. Killing ones own father is heavy stuff for anyone, no matter how bad your father was. While Tywins killing makes good sense for me, Shaes killing is pretty extreme. It takes one kind of person to be raving mad angry against somebody, and another kind to actually take the life out of her. Tyrion is "homeless" from that event on - hes hunted and has nowhere to go, no direction home...

[Kittykatknits]

Look he's not perfect but I have a suspicion Tyrion's vulgarity and crude thoughts turn you off from him more than his acts. His deeds just don't turn out to be that bad by comparison to most of the other characters in this series.

Comparing Tyrion to the likes of Tywin and Gregor to make him seem an angel isn't much of an argument. And no one has made the claim that the guy is evil personified. But, the idea that he behaves altruistically all the time, is never selfish, cruel, petty, vindictive, and unthoughtful is not backed up by the text.

Your suspicion will have to remain just that, it's not the case. According to the text, no one inserted his penis in to the vagina of the sex slave. No one warged his body when he strangled Shae. He wasn't being warged either when he broke the singer's fingers beause the man was embarrassing him. Neither did anyone force him to slap and kick the King in public in front of many eyewitnesses, a stupid act that came back to bite him later. No one forced him to poison Cersei, another act that made him look guilty during the trial. Tyrion is the one who decides, all by himself, that arming the clansmen was a way for him to also get revenge upon Lysa. His thoughts on how the Vale would burn are quite revealing.

Stupid for his personal ambitions, but not as far as his house is concerned. He is one of two people in KL(Tywin the other) that have the guts to attempt to discipline Joffrey. How is that negative? He was trying to reign in a mad man even at the expense of himself. That's respectable in my eyes.

Can you show the page where Tywin hit, slapped, and kicked the King in public? Or where he felt it was a good idea to embarrasses the King in front of the entire court? Tywin thought Joff needed some harsh punishment but he never made the mistake of doing that in public. Sandor told Tyrion he was making a mistake when he warned that Joff would not forget it in the very first Tyrion POV back in GOT. Rather apparent that Tyrion didn't listen.

I'm so tired of hearing this. Tyrion SAVED Sansa from being objectified and exploited by House Lannister. Sure it crosses his mind about how he could use her, but he never does. He treats her with more respect than any other man of Tywin might have chose. Tyrion had no say in Sansa getting married. That was not his call. He bit the bullet and married her to save her from a life of complete shit.

Tyrion married her because he wanted a Tysha replacement, the loving and dutiful wife. He wanted WF. No where in the series is the idea that he married her to either save or protect her is supported, that was not part of his motivations. The prospect of WF gave him a queer chill, he decided to keep Sansa in the dark prior to the wedding but made sure to tell Shae right away, he felt bitter towards her for her refusal to bend her "stiff Stark knees", he wondered how she would react if he kissed her in public. His thoughts also flat out state that he wants her laughter, fears, and desires i.e. he wants the perfect little wife and of course, he "wants Winterfell too". During his trial, he's upset over how little her vows apparently meant to her. In Dance, he thinks Sansa, like all the women in his life, played him false.

So, he wants to use her and is bitter towards her. No reflection that he treated her badly, no thoughts on what she might want, nothing. No reflection on his role in the marriage of a forced, 12 year old bride.

If we feel the need to praise his when it comes to the marriage, then we can certainly say that he never forced himself on her. Now, I'm not generally in the habit of giving someone a gold star for not raping someone but apparently this act makes him rather heroic in the eyes of some. In my experience, lots of people are able to refrain from raping others. In fact, lots even go their entire lives. But, yeah, I'll go ahead and call this one of his finest acts. It's truly noble, especially compared to Gregor, Rorge, the Tickler, Biter, and all the other upstanding citizens of Westeros.

[Gannicus]

He did have control, he had the option to refuse and even said so on their wedding day. But then Tywin would've given Sansa to Lancel he would've been stuck with Lollys (or so Tywin threatened I believe). In the end he chose for Sansa, for a lot of obvious reasons.

Control over what, Sansa's happiness? Sansa was going to be to a Lannister, and there was absolutely nothing he could do about that. Tyrion being a realist decided that Sansa was a better option than Lollys. I fail to see how so many posters pin the exploiter label on him for that. He was also forced into something he didn't want as well.

Tyrion was most certainly disappointed in Sansa from day 0. He expected her to do her duty to him yet he also knew that not only his looks were off putting (says so himself when he wants to bed her) he also knows Sansa wouldn't be none too keen on being married to a guy who's family is trying to kill her kin (mentions it several times including to Tywin). Yet for some reason he doesn't really grasp all that, most likely because he wants to be loved and he feels he deserves it.

He clearly does grasp that. As you so keenly stated he thinks it to himself on a number of occasions. He tries to make the best of a crappy situation. Again I fail to see the problem with that.

[Gannicus]

Comparing Tyrion to the likes of Tywin and Gregor to make him seem an angel isn't much of an argument. And no one has made the claim that the guy is evil personified. But, the idea that he behaves altruistically all the time, is never selfish, cruel, petty, vindictive, and unthoughtful is not backed up by the text.

That's fair. While I don't agree with the original poster, I think he gets unfair criticism from you and others.

Your suspicion will have to remain just that, it's not the case. According to the text, no one inserted his penis in to the vagina of the sex slave. No one warged his body when he strangled Shae. He wasn't being warged either when he broke the singer's fingers beause the man was embarrassing him. Neither did anyone force him to slap and kick the King in public in front of many eyewitnesses, a stupid act that came back to bite him later. No one forced him to poison Cersei, another act that made him look guilty during the trial. Tyrion is the one who decides, all by himself, that arming the clansmen was a way for him to also get revenge upon Lysa. His thoughts on how the Vale would burn are quite revealing.

Given the context these acts are that not just not that bad. Shea was probably the worst but I can see why he felt he had to.

Can you show the page where Tywin hit, slapped, and kicked the King in public? Or where he felt it was a good idea to embarrasses the King in front of the entire court? Tywin thought Joff needed some harsh punishment but he never made the mistake of doing that in public. Sandor told Tyrion he was making a mistake when he warned that Joff would not forget it in the very first Tyrion POV back in GOT. Rather apparent that Tyrion didn't listen.

Tywin never struck the king, but he certainly embarrassed him when he sent him off to bed. But Tywin could do that, he was in a much different position than Tyrion. Tywin had Cersei's backing and the guards' respect. Tyrion was instructed to bring the boy to heel and didn't have the luxury of support. The lessons had to be quick and to the point. The messages were never received so you can argue it was stupid to try. But I admire his efforts with the boy.

Tyrion married her because he wanted a Tysha replacement, the loving and dutiful wife. He wanted WF.

:bs:

Especially the Tysha part.

He has always wanted to be loved, but he was well aware Sansa had no love for him.

He's also smart enough to realize that becoming Lord of Winterfell is more than a stretch.

No where in the series is the idea that he married her to either save or protect her is supported, that was not part of his motivations. The prospect of WF gave him a queer chill, he decided to keep Sansa in the dark prior to the wedding but made sure to tell Shae right away, he felt bitter towards her for her refusal to bend her "stiff Stark knees", he wondered how she would react if he kissed her in public. His thoughts also flat out state that he wants her laughter, fears, and desires i.e. he wants the perfect little wife and of course, he "wants Winterfell too". During his trial, he's upset over how little her vows apparently meant to her. In Dance, he thinks Sansa, like all the women in his life, played him false.

The little man wants the perfect little wife, the bastard. How dare he?

It amounts to more thoughts without action. Some of them drunken thoughts. Sansa was as far from what he wanted in a bride as he was what Sansa wanted in a husband. He's bitter no doubt, but other than a few choice thoughts his bitterness is rarely directed at her. If anyone has ever been, angry, bitter, or annoyed, you know that irrational thoughts come to mind. But without action their empty and meaningless.

So, he wants to use her and is bitter towards her. No reflection that he treated her badly, no thoughts on what she might want, nothing. No reflection on his role in the marriage of a forced, 12 year old bride.

If we feel the need to praise his when it comes to the marriage, then we can certainly say that he never forced himself on her. Now, I'm not generally in the habit of giving someone a gold star for not raping someone but apparently this act makes him rather heroic in the eyes of some. In my experience, lots of people are able to refrain from raping others. In fact, lots even go their entire lives. But, yeah, I'll go ahead and call this one of his finest acts. It's truly noble, especially compared to Gregor, Rorge, the Tickler, Biter, and all the other upstanding citizens of Westeros.

Would Sansa have done her duty? Yes

She would not have been glad about it? No, and neither were thousands/millions of real life women throughout history who were betrothed to men thy didn't choose. If you feel comfortable calling it rape suit yourself. I'll not argue about that. But we see a much more serious form of rape throughout the novel wouldn't you agree?

While Tyrion doesn't deserve the medal of honor for not sleeping with his bride, his decency should be noted when we judge his character. He goes as far as saying he will never sleep with her if she doesn't want him. That means he's giving up hope of Winterfell and the possibility of a normal loving relationship(which he craves). I'm surprised you can't see the nobility of that.

It sounds an awful like he was willing to save her from a shittier situation, where he would in essence be getting nothing in return, no love, no Winterfell, no nothing.

[Lyanna Stark]

While Tyrion doesn't deserve the medal of honor for not sleeping with his bride, his decency should be noted when we judge his character. He goes as far as saying he will never sleep with her if she doesn't want him. That means he's giving up hope of Winterfell and the possibility of a normal loving relationship(which he craves). I'm surprised you can't see the nobility of that.

No he doesn't say he will never sleep with her. He just comments that there are whores. He makes no promises.

Also, characterising not raping his 13 year old bride who was forced to marry him as "giving up hope of a normal loving relationship" seems to completely ignore all logic, ever.

I can also, regarding your belief that Sansa was not a Tysha replacement recommend the Tyrion reread threads. They contain a lot of recent, thoughtful analysis, based directly on the text with quotes and context. They are not based on people's memories of reading the novels, but on a collective effort to examine the text closely. The Tysha replacement theme comes out strongly in the reread. The current thread is here, with link in the first post to the previous threads, examining Tyrion's storyline throughout AGOT and ACOK.

Tyrion's strange behaviour when it comes to women and relationships and his lying to himself regarding them can to a large degree be linked to the Tysha story and also to the death of his mother, and the complete lack of female figures in his life, which is repeatedly highlighted from AGOT and forward.

[The Night's Prince]

Reading 5 pages of this thread has lead me to one conclusion. Chrisdaw is straight LOCO. That is all.

[Éadaoin]

There's so much rape apologism in this thread that I'm thoroughly grossed out.

[Winter's Knight]

There's so much rape apologism in this thread that I'm thoroughly grossed out.

I think I'll add Tyrion threads to my list of "Topics That Give Me Ulcers".

[Gannicus]

No he doesn't say he will never sleep with her. He just comments that there are whores. He makes no promises.

Oh come on. Read between the lines. What do you think that means?

Also, characterising not raping his 13 year old bride who was forced to marry him as "giving up hope of a normal loving relationship" seems to completely ignore all logic, ever.

It's the same thing every time isn't it. There is just no getting through to some of you. If Tyrion and Sansa were to stay together, yes it does. He might be able to find a woman who he loved but it would have to be out of wedlock which would create problems in itself. AKA not normal.

I can also, regarding your belief that Sansa was not a Tysha replacement recommend the Tyrion reread threads. They contain a lot of recent, thoughtful analysis, based directly on the text with quotes and context. They are not based on people's memories of reading the novels, but on a collective effort to examine the text closely. The Tysha replacement theme comes out strongly in the reread. The current thread is here, with link in the first post to the previous threads, examining Tyrion's storyline throughout AGOT and ACOK.

I know where to find them but no thanks. Talk about wasting your life. I've spent enough time reading and discussing this series that I can form my own opinions without having to read extra book reports.

Tyrion's strange behaviour when it comes to women and relationships and his lying to himself regarding them can to a large degree be linked to the Tysha story and also to the death of his mother, and the complete lack of female figures in his life, which is repeatedly highlighted from AGOT and forward.

Strange behavior? How do you mean?

[Woman of War]

Honestly, I am rather critIcal when it comes to defending sexual violence but I do not see rape apologism in this thread. Maybe i have overlooked the one or other post

[Gannicus]

There's so much rape apologism in this thread that I'm thoroughly grossed out.

Do you consider Tyrion a rapist?

[Lyanna Stark]

I know where to find them but no thanks. Talk about wasting your life. I've spent enough time reading and discussing this series that I can form my own opinions without having to read extra book reports.

This, combined with this:

Strange behavior? How do you mean?

means that you really ought to spend a little time reading them. It would be well spent and enlightening. If you have missed Tyrion's conflicted, complex and tormented relationship to women then you've missed one of the main points of his story line, which is highlighted in the Reread thread in the analysis there.

Ergo: if you think gaining new insights into the text is a "waste of time", I have to wonder what you think you are after posting on this forum? Isn't the point of discussing the text to gain more and better insight?

Do you consider Tyrion a rapist?

Did you read ADWD? If you did, why ask the question? You'd know the answer.

[Éadaoin]

Do you consider Tyrion a rapist?

Yes.

[janedl]

Does anyone but me remember that Sansa, in the Vale, thinks that Tyrion was "kind"?