Tyrion: A Clean Record (almost)

[Lummel]

...Tyrion is the most "real" character in the series, neither saint nor evil but simply humane.

Do you mean humane or human? ;)

[Isalie]

I think that the idea of doing terrible things is what makes a chacter "most human" is tiresome. There are good people too in the world, they do make for worse stories though.

[dragontamer]

Do you mean humane or human? ;)

Human, thanks for the correction, I 'll edit my post.

[Lummel]

Scenario 1: Shae was his lover who betrayed him for money and her testimony was the final push to his conviction to death

Scenario 2: Shae was a former employee who betrayed him for money and her testimony was the final push to his conviction to death

In a medieval setting i don't see any unreasonable reaction

For me the point is the extreme nature of the relationship from Tyrion's POV.

The court and her testimony in many ways are not relevant and were certainly not relevant to the outcome. It was a show trial. Everybody was gathered there to find Tyrion guilty and condemn him to death. That was the purpose of the exercise.

But her testimony was hugely significant to Tyrion emotionally.

There is an ongoing duality in his thinking about Shae. He knows he hired her and on what terms. She is quite blatant about being a prostitute at times. But Tyrion invests her with meaning and emotional significance.

The OP suggested that Tyrion has a clean record. The fact is that he does murder Shae. You can see why he does. Obviously we can all explain why he does, but no explanation changes the fact that it is murder. Murder driven by Tyrion's psychology rather than Shae's actions. There isn't a struggle, there isn't a fight, nor is he obliged to kill her. He could have let her live. If reason is involved in his decision to murder her, it is the twisted logic of 'a Lannister always pays their debts'.

Equally he could have made a whole series of different choices throughout his storyline from the very first chapter. The point is that we know his character from the actions that he does take and he is not a Davos or an Elder Brother.

Clearly he is an interesting character with all kinds of facets, including the occasional kindness, but he isn't a nice man or even more sinned against than sinning - he is intent on paying his debts with interest.

[Kolantero]

For me the point is the extreme nature of the relationship from Tyrion's POV.

The court and her testimony in many ways are not relevant and were certainly not relevant to the outcome. It was a show trial. Everybody was gathered there to find Tyrion guilty and condemn him to death. That was the purpose of the exercise.

But her testimony was hugely significant to Tyrion emotionally.

There is an ongoing duality in his thinking about Shae. He knows he hired her and on what terms. She is quite blatant about being a prostitute at times. But Tyrion invests her with meaning and emotional significance.

Agreed

The OP suggested that Tyrion has a clean record.

True but i think the OP changed his mind in page 2 or 3 (not about Shae, about the clean record). I think that in the last 10 pages very few people, if any at all, would support that, i don't.

The fact is that he does murder Shae. You can see why he does. Obviously we can all explain why he does, but no explanation changes the fact that it is murder. Murder driven by Tyrion's psychology rather than Shae's actions. There isn't a struggle, there isn't a fight, nor is he obliged to kill her. He could have let her live. If reason is involved in his decision to murder her, it is the twisted logic of 'a Lannister always pays their debts'.

Well Tyrion's psychology surely played a big part, but i think Shae's actions also played a large part (testify, sleeping with Tywin). Without either of the two, there is no murder. I don't doubt Tyrion's twisted logic and that the way he saw Shae (and some of his expectations from her) was out of touch with reality.

He could have let her live yes. But she participated in a plot to have him executed, even though she was supposed to be on his side (either as a lover or an employer). Despite his twisted logic and his illusions or the double way he was seeing Shae, that is imo a good reason for killing her, even though Tyrion's main motive was the love he thought she had for him.

Even today, If someone participated in a plot to kill me I would ofcourse go to the police or something but if someone had asked me if i would want that person dead and if i believe that he has it coming (whether a lover, an employer or a complete stranger) i would have said yes.

Equally he could have made a whole series of different choices throughout his storyline from the very first chapter. The point is that we know his character from the actions that he does take and he is not a Davos or an Elder Brother.

Clearly he is an interesting character with all kinds of facets, including the occasional kindness, but he isn't a nice man or even more sinned against than sinning - he is intent on paying his debts with interest.

Nice man might be an over-exaggeration. And he is certainly vengeful but i don't see that as necessarily a trait for a "bad" character (even if the trait is bad itself). But i do find most of the accusations (generally, not by you) against him unfounded.

[Ser Duncan of Flea Bottom]

He lied to Jaime about Joffrey, he killed Tywin (thank God about it) but he make things worst with that, he needed to get the hell out of Westeros

He speaks a lot and often offend people that usually are higher than him

He's inteligent, but has a sharp tongue, as he usually says

[jarl the climber]

Scenario 1: Shae was his lover who betrayed him for money and her testimony was the final push to his conviction to death

Scenario 2: Shae was a former employee who betrayed him for money and her testimony was the final push to his conviction to death

In a medieval setting i don't see any unreasonable reaction

Lets lay out the scenario. Tyrion goes up the ladder to confront his Father. He has just been in on trial for his life and lost and had been sitting in the Black Cells waiting for his execution. he is then rescued by Jaimie who admits to having betrayed him about the matter with his first wife. So this fellow is about to blow up when he goes up the ladder. When he gets into the bedroom he finds Shae in bed instead of his Father, he did not know she was there, he did not go there looking to kill her.

Shae seemed half drunk. My beleif is that she was there to see if she could get Tywin to keep the promises that had been made to her by Cersei. She mentioned that Tywin scared her and if Tyrion was there to rescue her. She might have been truthful, Tywin had promised to kill the next whore he found in Tyrions bed. He might have been making comments about this to Shae for all we know. Then she makes the Giant comment and it curtians for her.

We can see into Tyrions mind but it was a poor choice of words, reminding him of the betrayal he had just suffered at her hands. If he does not kill her what does he do with her at this point. All she has to do is knock him off balance for a second and start running and calling for the guards. The guy is a dwarf, he is not his brother Jaimie, who can manhandle people. He couldn't trust her anymore at this point, so he did what he had to do. He came up there to confront his Father and he did not need for her to be running off and getting the guards while he was doing this. Maybe she would have done this, hoping to get her reward, maybe she really was scared of Tywin and wouldn't, who really knows.

On a practical level Cersei had her body disposed of and commanded everyone present to keep silence. There is no evidence that Shae was ever there. On a practical level it never happened.

[Woman of War]

.....

We can see into Tyrions mind but it was a poor choice of words, reminding him of the betrayal he had just suffered at her hands. If he does not kill her what does he do with her at this point. All she has to do is knock him off balance for a second and start running and calling for the guards. The guy is a dwarf, he is not his brother Jaimie, who can manhandle people. He couldn't trust her anymore at this point, so he did what he had to do. He came up there to confront his Father and he did not need for her to be running off and getting the guards while he was doing this. Maybe she would have done this, hoping to get her reward, maybe she really was scared of Tywin and wouldn't, who really knows.

Sorry, Jarl, for having to disagree. As much as I would like to defend Tyrion here: but a coverup murder is a clear case of murder, done after a weighing of options, in my eyes maybe worse than a murder out of spontaneous rage. I believe Tyrion snapped and killed Shae after she used the "giant of Lannister", without thinking about what she might do or not. He was so very much out of his mind that he did not think clear enough to consider the guards. That came later.

But no matter if Tyrion wanted to silence a witness or acted out of rage Shae is dead and it was murder.

On a practical level Cersei had her body disposed of and commanded everyone present to keep silence. There is evidence that Shae was ever there. On a practical level it never happened.

On a practical level highborn noblemen could rid themselves of common prostitutes whenever they liked and certainly did so quite often. On a practical level the murder of the high Lord Tywin and the false Kingslayer accusation are a serious problem for Tyrion while we as modern day posters may perceive the murder of Shae as more wrong.

I do not believe that the ultimate fate of a character will depend upon how sinful he has been during the story or of the right amount of correct redemption. Every character will have a story arc that makes sense and not an ending that satisfies some fans' craving for personal revenge that gets projected on a literary character. Therefore Tyrion is not more likely to die in the end if he commits one, two or three murders, this is fortunately not the way these books work, the pure souls may die and the sinners live.

But for my evaluation of Tyrion's character the murder of Shae is his biggest crime. And the murder of Symon Silvertongue would not count either "on a practical level" because all evidence has been eaten.

[Mammothsbane]

I skimmed the thread, but if you are justifying Tyrion's murder of another person, I think we have a serious problem.

He is a murderer. He does not have a "clean record."

/thread

[PatrickStormborn]

Scenario 1: Shae was his lover who betrayed him for money and her testimony was the final push to his conviction to death

Scenario 2: Shae was a former employee who betrayed him for money and her testimony was the final push to his conviction to death

In a medieval setting i don't see any unreasonable reaction

Scenario 3: Tyrion stopped paying Shae for her service, so she stopped providing it.

[Woman of War]

Scenario 3: Tyrion stopped paying Shae for her service, so she stopped providing it.

Stopping to provide a service does not include the right to perjury at the expense of the former employer.

And suggesting that Shae, for being a "whore", does not have the moral obligation to behave correctly as one citizen to another citizen, i.e. not t to swear a perjury, is very ugly since it suggests that sex workers are per se morally lesser persons where normal human decency cannot be expected. Even if Tyrion had intended to cheat her (something he never did) this would not mean that Shae has the right to lie in court in a crucial situation like that.

Even if a prostitute has to lie durnig her job this does not mean that she is free of moral norms and values. Any other thought is seriously discriminating against sex workers and suggests that they are somewhat lesser citizens. What? for being sex workers??

Of course Tyrion was not entitled to murder her for this.

[Kolantero]

Scenario 3: Tyrion stopped paying Shae for her service, so she stopped providing it.

...and betrayed him for money while her testimony was the final push to his conviction to death*. Same as scenario 2.

*(she did play a big role at the trial, although he would still be found guilty)

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

Did I argue about the reason Tyrion murdered her? I argued against the notion that Shae's testimony was worthless.

My apologies. I misread your last sentence.

That said, Tyrion was long done before Shae came out.

[Ironkiller]

Victarion rather proves the opposite. His action in beating his salt wife to death was so extreme and weird even by ironborn standards that it is kept a strict secret that nobody knows. Remember Asha asking about what happened to the woman, aware that something was wrong, but not quite what.

I believe Victarion hides this fact because it's too shameful for him. Being cheated by your wife with your brother and all...

[Castel]

Stopping to provide a service does not include the right to perjury at the expense of the former employer.

And suggesting that Shae, for being a "whore", does not have the moral obligation to behave correctly as one citizen to another citizen, i.e. not t to swear a perjury, is very ugly since it suggests that sex workers are per se morally lesser persons where normal human decency cannot be expected. Even if Tyrion had intended to cheat her (something he never did) this would not mean that Shae has the right to lie in court in a crucial situation like that.

Even if a prostitute has to lie durnig her job this does not mean that she is free of moral norms and values. Any other thought is seriously discriminating against sex workers and suggests that they are somewhat lesser citizens. What? for being sex workers??

Of course Tyrion was not entitled to murder her for this.

Well, to play Devil's Advocate here, whores are people of lower status in a society like Westeros and so would find it more difficult to stand up to people like Cersei. Someone like Ser Loras and Jaime can get away with not testifying if Cersei asks, what is Shae gonna do? It comes down to her skin or Tyrion she is picking herself.

It wasn't right to perjure herself, but we don't know exactly what happened (Martin circles the edges then deliberately pulls back) so I can't say for sure that this was just Shae being devious.

[Woman of War]

Yes, I admit that Shae may have been forced to be a witness against Tyrion and been told what to say. But she was certainly unnecessarily convincing. putting up a tearful show to advertise herself for the next client. Inventive and clever as she was she could certainly have signalled Tyrion by small details that she was forced and he would have understood. But no, she used her cleverness to entertain the audience with spicy lies. And there was no need at all to bring up the giant of Lannister, this so very private pet name. Did she believe being extra malicious might earn her bonus points with Cersei for doing her job so well?

We do not, know so far, that is true. And I certainly do not hold it against her that she did not stand up in court and bravely refused to give evidence, a suicide mission for a commoner.

Make no mistake, I find the character of Shae hugely interesting. She is a victim that fights, savvy, streetwise and clever, someone who does not complain but who goes on. Of course she sees her own suffering in the misery of Lollys and Tysha and the, of course far less horrible, treatment of Sansa. She denies her own suffering by being rude towards other victims. And she has learned to see human relationships as business transactions. At some point Tyrion became an investment gone wrong. She was unable to understand his twisted emotional needs since she had to numb herself against all empathy for self protection. What she still was able to manage was to sense how to play johns, to sense which triggers makes them want her. In fact she was highly qualified in her job, savvy but not truly empathic, not even with herself. She never intended to let Tyrion get under her skin, she did everything so that Tyrion could never see the real Shae, the tough, hardened, ambitious  social climber, not interested in human relations but perfect at faking them.

shamelessly quoting my own post from the Tywin/Shae thread

[Pod The Impaler]

The issue with Sansa is that it tells us about Tyrion's priorities - it is family first. He knows that Sansa is unwilling, hates Lannisters and wants to be free of them all the same. He choose not to dig in his heels and have no part in it, he just goes along with what is good for the Lannister family. That might not be anything unusal in westeros but it does show us that Tyrion is not a nice guy, he is the company man, loyal to the Lannisters. His moral compass points to Casterly Rock - if it is good for House Lannisters he will do it.

At that point in the story, yes, he was still loyal. More loyal to them than they were to him, clearly. His entire notion of self-worth was wrapped up in trying to prove he was worthy of the Lannister name.Those bad things were all done in the name of the Lannister cause. Even as they proved they were his enemies, he was still not theirs.

That is all past-tense now, clearly. Since his trial, since the Tysha revelation, he is his own man - and their mortal enemy.

[Pod The Impaler]

Shae's testimony was an explicit detailing of the affair. It left no doubt in people's minds. Everyone else set the stage, mostly with half truths and damning statements that were mostly coincidental, Shae was the cap on it all, the thing that was supposed to win everyone over and stop this PR nightmare from living after Tyrion.

Shae is still a commoner, regardless if listed as whore or servant girl. How would her word had fared against the likes of Ser Balon Swann? Not very well, I'd say. In that regard, Cersei had only brought Shae in to hurt Tyrion, there was no other reason. The other testimonies did the job, Shae was just the icing on the cake for Tyrion to make him feel low. It was not needed at all to get him convicted, which we can see in Tyrion's chapter too where he clearly thinks that Ser Balon Swann's testimony alone is enough to convict him, never mind Blount's.

Scenario 1: Shae was his lover who betrayed him for money and her testimony was the final push to his conviction to death

Scenario 2: Shae was a former employee who betrayed him for money and her testimony was the final push to his conviction to death

In a medieval setting i don't see any unreasonable reaction

I am inclined to believe Lyanna's explanation about why and how Shae testified against him. Nothing about it was really necessary to convict him. If any was useful in that regard, a simple line about how he and Sansa supposedly plotted (false) or how much they both hated Joffrey (true) would have sufficed.

No, it was not enough to convict him of a crime and put him to death - Shae's testimony was calculated to humiliate him, to cut him down in everyone's eyes and destroy the idea he was even a man. "My giant of Lannister" - cue laughter. It was not political or legal - it was pure malice. Pure Cersei, most likely. It demeaned Tyrion and provoked him to demand trial by combat, which is exactly what she wanted. Her father might have sent him to the wall - this way, Gregor would be her champion and he would die.

As for why Tyrion strangled Shae later. She had gone beyond what was needed to save her own skin, and had personbally humiliated him to the utmost. She was firmly in the enemy camp then - and by then he knew they were his mortal enemies. He might have been able to forgive that, knowing she was a whore did it to save her own skin by appeasing Cersei.

However, hearing the truth about Tysha changed everything for him. With memories of Tysha in his head, he arrives to (finally) kill his father and sees Shae in the bed of the very man who destroyed Tysha and ruined his only chance at being loved for real - and she uses the very words that were used in court to make a pathetic monster of him in everyone's eyes.... well, really how does one not snap at that point ?

Poor Shae, though. One gets the feeling she never really knew how mentally messed up the Lannisters were (Tyrion or any of them).

[Imp Riker]

I don't understand how you can read Tyrion as a character with "a clean record", but people interpret things differently I suppose. I very much enjoy reading Tyrion's chapters, and like the dark turn he's taken since the end of SoS. Even his dark turn isn't without goodness, as he owed Jorah nothing when he saved him from a potentially cruel slave owner. So yes, while he doesn't have a clean record and isn't the most benevolent character in the series, he certainly isn't the embodiment of evil as some posters would suggest.

OT- I know I'm in the minority here, but I liked reading his ADWD chapters when he was with YG and JC. I wish we could have seen a fully developed relationship with YG.

edited for spelling

[Pod The Impaler]

I don't read him as having a clean record, personally. He is no Brienne of Tarth.

I see him as a tragic character at best - tragic hero, maybe. In a way, he strives to be a good man - he can be gallant, honourable, thoughtful, compassionate, wise, honest, and quite brave. Deep down he probably would want to make a good husband and loving father. Yet, he has never been given a chance to be these things - every time he has tried to follow the better angels of his nature, it has been ruthlessly squelched by his family or succumbed to the flaws they have induced in his character to make him more like them.

Finally he has broken free of his family and their monstrously negative influence over him, but the process that got him there is a horror show, and psychologically the damage is already done.