Tyrion: A Clean Record (almost)

[Lyanna Stark]

Pretty much this and having the singer killed... While Tyrion is definetivly not a white character, some of the accusations in this thread are completely ridiculous. Holding Sansa's marriage against him, in a world where marriage is a synonimous of political benefit? REALLY?

She WAS marrying, anyway. He was a much better husband than most people would be.

And you Mr need to read the post two lines above yours. This one.

[Kolantero]

Pretty much this and having the singer killed... While Tyrion is definetivly not a white character, some of the accusations in this thread are completely ridiculous. Holding Sansa's marriage against him, in a world where marriage is a synonimous of political benefit? REALLY?

She WAS marrying, anyway. He was a much better husband than most people would be.

I wouldn't even count the singer. He was blackmailing Tyrion and he was serious about exposing Shae to Tywin. Tyrion even gave him a chance to make a profit and leave town. For a medieval setting, I see his actions afterwards justified.

And yeah i have no idea why Sansa's marriage is held against him since

1) He asked her if she wanted to cancel it (Sansa would still get married to a Lannister but that wouldn't be his fault)

2) He didn't consumate the marriage

For some reason the fact that Tyrion would have liked to rule WF (the seat of the biggest of the seven kingdoms) and to have sex with a preety girl (she is 13 but 13 in ASOIAF is not the same as in our world) is somehow held against him despite the fact that he doesn't act on these impulses.

[Ironkiller]

And you Mr need to read the post two lines above yours.

I've read it. So what, he married for political reasons. How is that any different than any other character ever did on the series? Even Ned married an unwilling Cat (and he consumates the marriage, btw).

The wrong part of it is he actually trying to make the marriage work out and not having sex with Sansa when she clearly doesen't want it? If he was actually that bad he woul've consumed it when Tywin told him to do it.

[Winter's Knight]

Just saying but Sansa was twelve when she married Tyrion.

I've read it. So what, he married for political reasons. How is that any different than any other character ever did on the series? Even Ned married an unwilling Cat (and he consumates the marriage, btw).

The wrong part of it is he actually trying to make the marriage work out and not having sex with Sansa when she clearly doesen't want it? If he was actually that bad he woul've consumed it when Tywin told him to do it.

Tyrion/Sansa is more Lady Hornwood/Ramsey or Arya/Ramsey than it is Ned/Cat.

[Ironkiller]

Tyrion/Sansa is more Lady Hornwood/Ramsey or Arya/Ramsey than it is Ned/Cat.

While I see your point, the fact is that Sansa did not have any family to give consent to the marriage. I wouldn't even consider Ramsay marrying of "Arya" wrong by westerosi standards, if he hadn't abused her.

My point is, I'm pretty sure Cat didn't want to marry the brother of her late fiancé, but she did it anyway...

[Winter's Knight]

While I see your point, the fact is that Sansa did not have any family to give consent to the marriage. I wouldn't even consider Ramsay marrying of "Arya" wrong by westerosi standards, if he hadn't abused her.

My point is, I'm pretty sure Cat didn't want to marry the brother of her late fiancé, but she did it anyway...

Cat/Ned and Lysa/Jon were not how marriages ordinarily take place. Normally, the bride and groom know each other for several years prior to the wedding-witness Cat/Brandon or Lyanna/Robert.

What makes Sansa/Tyrion so repungent is that it is the Westrosi equivalent of the Dothraki slaying their enemy and raping his daughter.

In the normal state of affairs, in arranged marriages, the bride still has recourse to her father's family and thus has some measure of protection from her husband.

Sansa is an isolated child who's family is being killed by the Lannisters-the fact that Tyrion agrees to take part in this abuse is-in my not so humble opinion-a mark against his character. He could have said that no, even if the poor child must be wedded to a Lannister, he at least will not take part in adding to her grief.

As a contrast: Jon refused to kill the old man in Storm, even though it was very clear that he was risking his own life and that if he didn't, someone else would. He still stood by his principles.

[Pod The Impaler]

HE(!!!) didn't force her, his father did. Could he refuse the marriage? Probably. Would this have been better for Sansa? Probably not. I don't disagree about your point regarding Shae, but his marriage with Sansa? Another husband handpicked by Tywin would have raped Sansa, Tyrion didn't touch her.

One has to drive this point into people's heads, definitely. They do not want to see it, so they don't.

Tyrion was the son of the Joseph Stalin of Westeros. Even for him, "no" simply means Tywin would find a way to make it twice as costly, and will punish the innocent out of sheer spite. All to make Tyrion pick the lesser evil.

Tyrion could have refused (the same way a slave can choose death over a life of slavery), and as a result Sansa would have been married to Lancel, or even Gregor Clegane, if Tywin wanted to put an exclamation point on it. And Joffrey would claim "first night" over her anyway - Lancel would never have the guts to stop it, and Clegane wouldn't have cared. And if the Red Wedding had occurred before Sansa's marriage, she would have been given to Ramsay Bolton and Jeyne Poole would have been quietly executed.

And if / when they found out that he was passing up Sansa in part because already had Shae on the side, they'd have tortured and hanged her too.

People really need to think about what choice a tyrant gives people - almost none. You think there's anything that's too brutal and sadistic for Tywin Lannister ? He had the Riverlands ravaged just to prove Lannisters are not to be messed with. He had Rhaegar's wife and children put to death, but protected and promoted his men for having done it so brutally. He co-authored the Red Wedding. His only measure of restraint is whether something enhances or degrades one's power over others.

The whole Tysha incident is simply a demonstration of what kind of man Tywin is: Tysha was destroyed as a lesson to Tyrion that he should never try to find happiness or self-worth, ever. It was also a way of inducting both Tyrion and Jaime into the Tywin Lannsiter school of ruling, the cult of absolute power.

Tyrion was never free to be with who he wanted, not at 13 and not before marrying Sansa either. Tywin simply would not allow it.

That Tyrion married Sansa showed he was still (at the time) a loyal Lannister - that he didn't blithely rape her as his father commanded showed he had some compassion, and was not willing to create another Tysha situation. There was nothing to stop Tyrion from doing it except his own conscience - proof that he had a conscience. If he had none, he would be like a mini-Mountain, or Shagwell, or Ramsay Snow, or Craster ... or Cersei.

[mormont]

(she is 13 but 13 in ASOIAF is not the same as in our world)

13 is 13. It's the same age in our world as it is in Martinworld.

You probably mean to say that 13-year-olds are not regarded in the same way, although as WK points out Sansa was 12. And you would be right, to a point, but not nearly as right as you think. The fact is that although marriages in Westeros are legal and do take place when the participants are young, that does not mean that 12-year-old girls are regarded exactly the same as, say, 18-year-old girls are in our world. It seems to be quite normal to wait a few years after the wedding before beginning sexual activity with a wife or husband of that age.

I've read it. So what, he married for political reasons. How is that any different than any other character ever did on the series? Even Ned married an unwilling Cat (and he consumates the marriage, btw).

Er, no he didn't. Cat was willing, and she says so.

[Quentyn Baratheon]

The whole Tysha incident is simply a demonstration of what kind of man Tywin is: Tysha was destroyed as a lesson to Tyrion that he should never try to find happiness or self-worth, ever. It was also a way of inducting both Tyrion and Jaime into the Tywin Lannsiter school of ruling, the cult of absolute power.

Which make me think about his brothers.......What kind of treatment they got from him? They're his probably some gold to dig (haha) here.

[jarl the climber]

I wouldn't even count the singer. He was blackmailing Tyrion and he was serious about exposing Shae to Tywin. Tyrion even gave him a chance to make a profit and leave town. For a medieval setting, I see his actions afterwards justified.

And yeah i have no idea why Sansa's marriage is held against him since

1) He asked her if she wanted to cancel it (Sansa would still get married to a Lannister but that wouldn't be his fault)

2) He didn't consumate the marriage

For some reason the fact that Tyrion would have liked to rule WF (the seat of the biggest of the seven kingdoms) and to have sex with a preety girl (she is 13 but 13 in ASOIAF is not the same as in our world) is somehow held against him despite the fact that he doesn't act on these impulses.

I agree, he is a Lannister, he takes what is offered. That is what he was raised to do. After the Battle of the Blackwater he was offered the posistion of Master of Coin and the marriage to Sansa. He had trepidations about both these things yet he took them anyways. He felt he should have been happy about both these things yet he was not. Tyrion is caught between his duty to his family and his house and what he thinks is decent.

I also disagree with those who consider his arming the Mountian clans as a crime. The Clans captured him but gave him passage through the Mountians because he made them a promise of silk and steel. Maybe some of them have used these weapons for henious purposes but the blame for that rests with them not Tyrion. Tyrion made the Clans a promise and he kept it. Why does Tyrion care about the Vale? They arrested him and tried on false charge, kept him locked in a sky cell where he was abused by the gaoler, Mord. Half the Lords in the Vale lined up to kill him when he asked for a trial by combat. Lysa could have sent him home by boat but it was her descision to send him on the East Road in the hopes that the clans would kill him. It seems like Lysa blundered her way through the whole thing and created a situation where her enemies could conspire against her.

[Quentyn Baratheon]

13 is 13. It's the same age in our world as it is in Martinworld.

You probably mean to say that 13-year-olds are not regarded in the same way, although as WK points out Sansa was 12. And you would be right, to a point, but not nearly as right as you think. The fact is that although marriages in Westeros are legal and do take place when the participants are young, that does not mean that 12-year-old girls are regarded exactly the same as, say, 18-year-old girls are in our world. It seems to be quite normal to wait a few years after the wedding before beginning sexual activity with a wife or husband of that age.

Allyria Dayne and Beric Dondarrion are not even married and IIRC, Allyria at the start of AGOT is Sansa's age.

[Captain Victarion Greyjoy]

I wouldn't even count the singer. He was blackmailing Tyrion and he was serious about exposing Shae to Tywin. Tyrion even gave him a chance to make a profit and leave town. For a medieval setting, I see his actions afterwards justified.

And yeah i have no idea why Sansa's marriage is held against him since

1) He asked her if she wanted to cancel it (Sansa would still get married to a Lannister but that wouldn't be his fault)

2) He didn't consumate the marriage

For some reason the fact that Tyrion would have liked to rule WF (the seat of the biggest of the seven kingdoms) and to have sex with a preety girl (she is 13 but 13 in ASOIAF is not the same as in our world) is somehow held against him despite the fact that he doesn't act on these impulses.

Agree

Sansa would have maried a Lannister eventualy , probably the next Lannister would rape the shit out of her.

But Tyrion some how protected her with this marriage ...

[PatrickStormborn]

Don't hate me for saying this WK, but in Tyrion's defense, he had a duty to his father to undermine Cersei. He was sent to KL in the first place at Tywin's command to rectify the mess Tywin felt Cersei was making and to take control. Don't get me wrong, I think Tyrion relishes the undermining, but it began as a Tywin directive at first.

Tyrion was sent to help Cersei, not undermine her by plotting against her.

It's sad to think that, had Tyrion and Cersei worked together, they would have been an unstoppable team.

[Lummel]

...I also disagree with those who consider his arming the Mountian clans as a crime...

OK. Well like you say it is Lysa who is responsible for Tyrion's treatment and her lords who look on. But who is it who is hurt by Tyrion's retaliation?

[jarl the climber]

13 is 13. It's the same age in our world as it is in Martinworld.

You probably mean to say that 13-year-olds are not regarded in the same way, although as WK points out Sansa was 12. And you would be right, to a point, but not nearly as right as you think. The fact is that although marriages in Westeros are legal and do take place when the participants are young, that does not mean that 12-year-old girls are regarded exactly the same as, say, 18-year-old girls are in our world. It seems to be quite normal to wait a few years after the wedding before beginning sexual activity with a wife or husband of that age.

Er, no he didn't. Cat was willing, and she says so.

From what I remember Tywin ordered Tyrion to take her so that the marriage could not be put aside since it was not consumated. Tywin said after that it would be nothing wrong with him waiting a few years before he bedded her again. By not bedding her he did defy his Father who was unhappy about it and who did needle him about it. Bedding Sansa was in part a politcal act.

[Ironkiller]

Cat/Ned and Lysa/Jon were not how marriages ordinarily take place. Normally, the bride and groom know each other for several years prior to the wedding-witness Cat/Brandon or Lyanna/Robert.

What makes Sansa/Tyrion so repungent is that it is the Westrosi equivalent of the Dothraki slaying their enemy and raping his daughter.

In the normal state of affairs, in arranged marriages, the bride still has recourse to her father's family and thus has some measure of protection from her husband.

I know that's not how wedding usually happens, but they were wed like in an emergency political situation, just like Tyrion/Sansa... The Lannisters saw Winterfell and dominion over the North (Sansa) slip trough their fingers, being backstabbed by the Tyrells, and married her to prevent that.

We are talking about a patriarchal society, it doesen't matter if Lysa or Sansa hated the idea of marrying to whom they married, they were forced to do it anyway by people in a position of power over them, family power in the case of Lysa/Cat or political power in the case of Sansa.

[jarl the climber]

OK. Well like you say it is Lysa who is responsible for Tyrion's treatment and her lords who look on. But who is it who is hurt by Tyrion's retaliation?

Tyrion did not retaliate against anybody. He gave the Clans arms so they would not kill him or make him a thrall. I'm not sure what the history is between the Arryns and the Clans. I've always assumed they were descendants of the First Men who hed fled into the Mountians to escape the Andals. In part they rely on raiding and pillaging because they have no choice. One of the Clan leaders said that Tyrions offer could be the difference between life and death for his people. I do not see how Tyrion has any resposibility for any of this. And then again Lysa could have avoided the whole situation if she sent him back to Kings Landing by ship, instead she tried to be clever and it backfired.

[Kolantero]

13 is 13. It's the same age in our world as it is in Martinworld.

You probably mean to say that 13-year-olds are not regarded in the same way,

True, that's what i meant.

although as WK points out Sansa was 12. And you would be right, to a point, but not nearly as right as you think. The fact is that although marriages in Westeros are legal and do take place when the participants are young, that does not mean that 12-year-old girls are regarded exactly the same as, say, 18-year-old girls are in our world. It seems to be quite normal to wait a few years after the wedding before beginning sexual activity with a wife or husband of that age.

Agreed, afterall Tyrion himself thinks of Sansa as a sort of child. ASOIAF-12 yo is certainly not the equivalent of ourworld-18 yo in but it would still be "higher" than ourworld-12.

My main point was that it wasn't as weird as it is today for Tyrion to be sexually attracted to 12 year old Sansa. Tyrion didn't go through with it anyway and if he did it would have been an awful act regardless of how we view sansa (child or very young adult-granted the first is even worse but both are really bad)

[Captain Victarion Greyjoy]

But who is it who is hurt by Tyrion's retaliation?

They were dangerous from the start , Shaga might crush youre head with a new sharp axe now instead of an old rusty one , but he will still crush youre head. He gave weapons to mountain clans ...big deal , how do we know the mountain clans weren't peacefull people untill the lords of Eyrie started to bully them and send them to be outcasts , we know little about them , they are the wildings from south of the wall .

They were given weapons for service done for the Lannister family , their lives were at risk ,they did a job same as a salesword , if they were payed in gold would you all haters be happy ?

[Cloaked]

He didn't, he threatened to rape Tommen. Cersei brings him Yaya, thinking she found Tyrion's whore. His response is to tell Cersei that whatever happens to Yaya will happen to her son, including beating and raping. He then tells her that he'll even do it himself.

In Tyrion's first Storm chapter, he asks where Tommen is and learns that the boy is back with his mother. Tyrion then thinks to himself that this is a good thing as he rather liked the boy but he could not have let Cersei win.

Ahh, thank you. I was totally blanking!