Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 Varamyr appears to warg his animals with out going into a sleep state like the Stark kids. One such example is him riding around on his snow bear. His shadowcat also follows him around with his wolves, and he describes the shadowcat as hating him. When Stannis troops attack the wildlings during Jon's parley, and Melisandre attacks the eagle, all of his animals flee. I don't think he shares a bond with them at all, and they follow him like slaves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toccs Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 Varamyr appears to warg his animals with out going into a sleep state like the Stark kids. One such example is him riding around on his snow bear. His shadowcat also follows him around with his wolves, and he describes the shadowcat as hating him. When Stannis troops attack the wildlings during Jon's parley, and Melisandre attacks the eagle, all of his animals flee. I don't think he shares a bond with them at all, and they follow him like slaves.I seem to recall that his wolves all share a bond with him, but the Shadowcat hates him and the Snow Bear actively fights him every time he slips into it's skin.I figured that it was because the wolves are pack animals and the others are not. Even after they fled during the battle the three wolves still stayed together.Which would suggest that he is always exerting some degree of control over his animals, otherwise the Snow Bear and Shadowcat would not hang around and would run off the moment he left their skins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted December 10, 2012 Author Share Posted December 10, 2012 Indeed, when I referred to a bond, I didn't mean a happy bond. Bound might have been a better word, with Varamyr able to to control in the sense of "come", "follow me" or whatever, as distinct from actually sitting inside at the controls. Perhaps a sort of hypnotism or auto-suggestion from within - a sort of when I leave, this is what you must do...Which appears to be what's happening with the Wights. I don't think they're actively warged, but; "when you wake up you will..." Remember how in Varamyr's true death experience he seemed to be "in" everything he passed.As to the sleeping business I think its pretty straightforward. The warg is leaving the body and there's nobody home - bit like the last days of Khal Drogo - so any lengthy excursions would sensibly require the body to be left somewhere safe and cosy, otherwise I'd imagine for briefer excursions like Arya warging into the cat, the body would simply stop with a quite literally vacant look on its face. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toccs Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 Which appears to be what's happening with the Wights. I don't think they're actively warged, but; "when you wake up you will..." Remember how in Varamyr's true death experience he seemed to be "in" everything he passed.I was just thinking about the similarity with the wights. It fits nicely with the theory that Crasters boys are untethered wargs, it's the ultimate extension of Varamyr's ability to control his pack without actively warging them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncat Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 Part of the trouble with accepting the conventional story of the Wall is the nature of its construction. When Jon is preparing with Ygritte and the rest of the gang to climb the Wall he comments on the massive size of the foundation blocks - remember even allowing for GRRM getting carried away with himself even half of the 700 feet claimed in the books is way above the height of 16-26 feet for the Great wall of China, far less the 10 foot of Hadrian's Wall where GRRM started. (I currently live by the way just about a mile north of it). And then there's the ice itself. As I said in an earlier post its not like hauling stone. Ice this massive will be so cold it will not only burn but strip the skin off anything that touches it let alone move it precisely. Its magic.Its also worth noting that just before he does a runner at Queenscrown, Jon recalls being told that Bran the Builder used giants to raise Winterfell. Once again we're looking at the Stonehenge syndrome. If its big it "must" have been built by giants.On side note: If blocks were used, then they would have fused together long ago into an indiscernable mass of ice. I.e. what ever Jon saw and interpreted along the legends, he knew, is not the lines of ice-bricks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncat Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 Just to get the size of it: youay want to compare it to the building of the first Panama Canal. Only that instead of down, it goes up and instead of murdering heat you would have murdering cold (building the wall only works in winter). Hundredthousends died in this deed and they only managed it, because they had huge machines and explosives.The Wall was not build by man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncat Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 Hello Ser Sceptic, long time no argue :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Olenna Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 It's been forever since I've posted on here but I'm doing a slow re-read and just finished Bran's fall/vision. I've read pretty much everyone's theory on who the stone giant is. Seems its a tie between Littlefinger and Gregor. The vision seems like a present time vision - meaning the events are happening in real time as Bran is seeing them. This is where I get lost. Littlefinger isn't in the scenario and I don't think Gregor is either. The person that is in the immediate time frame is Payne. He has that interaction with Sansa and is seen as terrifying by her. I don't know if this topic has been beaten to death but I couldn't find anything mentioning Payne as the giant. So I'm coming to the best theorists for advice.Edit- like a true :dunce: I posted this in thread 22. You guys work fast. I have only read up to 21! Lots of reading for me to do.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted December 10, 2012 Author Share Posted December 10, 2012 Per my response on 22; Ser Illyn Payne looks a good one. Everything else was in real time, so it does have to be somebody who was there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Olenna Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 Right? Seems logical to me but I keep being met with the same Littlefinger= Bravos = stone or some other argument behind Gregor. I'm pretty sure Payne's role is not finished and there was a reason behind the scene of him terrifying Sansa. But so far there's only been maybe 1 person on boat with me. Anyway, I finally ordered Dreamsongs so I can dig into The Ice Dragon and come back here and compare notes. I have a lot of reading up to do over holiday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Olenna Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 I seem to recall that his wolves all share a bond with him, but the Shadowcat hates him and the Snow Bear actively fights him every time he slips into it's skin.I figured that it was because the wolves are pack animals and the others are not. Even after they fled during the battle the three wolves still stayed together.Which would suggest that he is always exerting some degree of control over his animals, otherwise the Snow Bear and Shadowcat would not hang around and would run off the moment he left their skins.IMHO it also depends on the nature of the beast. Dogs are more likely to adjust to a handler so to speak, than a cat would. And humans will resist even more. Hodor even puts up a fight with Bran. I'd imagine trees would be easiest and ravens as well. But if some part of him is left behind in his animal then he still maintains a familiarity if not a form of control. So if he lets go of the control and leaves the animal the animal will leave but will still that bond of familiarity. At least that's how I understood it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 Per my response on 22; Ser Illyn Payne looks a good one. Everything else was in real time, so it does have to be somebody who was there.Except that everything that is happening is the result of Littlefingers planning. His shadow looms over this entire business like a puppet master. And the giant of Bravos is the sigil of his family, so the form makes sense as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncat Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 Just what I wanted to say. And then there is the snow castle scene at the Eyrie, where Sansa slays a giant to retake Winterfell. I took that as a hint at Littlefinger, the giant little man, too. Right now he is the giant protecting her. But at some point she will see that nothing but blood has come from him over her family at that if she really wants to reclaim Winterfell it can onl be done against him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncat Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 Ok, that may habe been a little cofusing so: Littlefinger - Stonegiant in his family's sigil - hidden political giant looming over all the events in Kings Landing which led to the fall of house Stark - a big strong protector on the outside, but if you take a closer look, i.e. remove his helmet, his mask, there is nothing but death, blood and war coming from his plans and actions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toccs Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 Littlefinger - Stonegiant in his family's sigil - hidden political giant looming over all the events in Kings Landing which led to the fall of house Stark - a big strong protector on the outside, but if you take a closer look, i.e. remove his helmet, his mask, there is nothing but death, blood and war coming from his plans and actionsI don't fault your reasoning, but I do disagree that it is Littlefinger. When it says that Ned and the girls were surrounded by shadows, the first one is obviously the Hound and the second one is Jaime who are both pyshically there. The Hound and Jaime are not vague politcal threats, they are immedtiate imposing presences, with that in mind Illyn Payne is a better fit then Littlefinger.The reasoning behind it being Littlefinger is just too abstract to fit with the other 2 shadows listed and the threat represented by Littlefinger is a completely different class to the one represented by the Hound and Jaime. That being said, I'm not completely sold on it being Ser Illyn. I just can't make the imagery fit with Ser Illyn in the same way the imagery fits the Hound and Jaime without it feeling forced. I don't have my books with me but if anyone can reread the passage where Sansa frst sees Ser Illyn, does she mention anything about his face "made of stone" or him being "black and empty on the inside" or other similar descriptions, something that would allow the reader to make the connecttion with Ser Illyn? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zacker Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 Did a search but didn't find anything on this. Apologies if I was merely not thorough enough.How do you guys feel about the children of the forrest actually being the fabled "terible half-human children"? The reason they are dwindling in numbers then being a lack of contact between the Others and humans, for whatever reason. Well that and hybrid sterility. (Or whatever other reasons your twisted heretical minds can no doubt come up with.)Other than establishing a natural connection between the children and the Others this would also decrease the number of peoples in the universe which, imo, would be a good thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little Wing Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 IMHO it also depends on the nature of the beast. Dogs are more likely to adjust to a handler so to speak, than a cat would. And humans will resist even more. Hodor even puts up a fight with Bran.I'd imagine trees would be easiest and ravens as well.But if some part of him is left behind in his animal then he still maintains a familiarity if not a form of control. So if he lets go of the control and leaves the animal the animal will leave but will still that bond of familiarity.At least that's how I understood it.I agree. It's like the warg leaves a mark on the animals he/she wargs into and that animal is his/hers from then on. A bond is created after warging and the animal is "attached" to the warg willy-nilly. It's like a piece of the warg remains in the animal, and vice versa, a trait of the animal probably stays with the warg...With the Stark kids and their direwolves the connection was there from day one - the chapter where they find them shows Summer squirming in fear when Bran is afraid the pups will be killed and relaxing after Bran realizes they're safe, mirroring Bran's emotions that early. Jon "hears" Ghost after they get on the road again and goes back to find him following this "sound" - Ghost was calling out to him in his mind, no one else heard anything and we know Ghost is silent so what was it that Jon could have heard so far away, except if Ghost was reaching for him? The loving bond is there from first contact so warging is not violent as we've seen it is with Varamyr. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncat Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 I don't fault your reasoning, but I do disagree that it is Littlefinger. When it says that Ned and the girls were surrounded by shadows, the first one is obviously the Hound and the second one is Jaime who are both pyshically there. The Hound and Jaime are not vague politcal threats, they are immedtiate imposing presences, with that in mind Illyn Payne is a better fit then Littlefinger.The reasoning behind it being Littlefinger is just too abstract to fit with the other 2 shadows listed and the threat represented by Littlefinger is a completely different class to the one represented by the Hound and Jaime. That being said, I'm not completely sold on it being Ser Illyn. I just can't make the imagery fit with Ser Illyn in the same way the imagery fits the Hound and Jaime without it feeling forced. I don't have my books with me but if anyone can reread the passage where Sansa frst sees Ser Illyn, does she mention anything about his face "made of stone" or him being "black and empty on the inside" or other similar descriptions, something that would allow the reader to make the connecttion with Ser Illyn?I know, what you mean. I like the reasoning leading to Littlefinger, but, yeah the clear images of the others around Ned and the girls trouble me, too. But them Ser Ilyn was no real danger at the moment of the vision and surly enough not the biggest danger of all. The thing is, that the Jamie is both a real, physical threat by who he is and on the same time he is a larger, political threat. He wields power and is dangerous for that. And finaly he is dangerous for his connection to the queen. The Hound wields only his sword. But he also is Joffreys catpawn and thus, too, representative for an imminent larger danger (again connected to the queen). Neither Ser Ilyn nor the Mountain seem to fit as even larger dangers looming over those at the moment of the visionWhichever way I turn it, I haven't found a reasonable explanation yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little Wing Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 That being said, I'm not completely sold on it being Ser Illyn. I just can't make the imagery fit with Ser Illyn in the same way the imagery fits the Hound and Jaime without it feeling forced. I don't have my books with me but if anyone can reread the passage where Sansa frst sees Ser Illyn, does she mention anything about his face "made of stone" or him being "black and empty on the inside" or other similar descriptions, something that would allow the reader to make the connecttion with Ser Illyn?Here's Sansa's impression of Payne when she first sees him:He stood to one side, beside their horses, a gaunt grim man who watched the proceedings in silence. His face was pockmarked and beardless, with deepset eyes and hollow cheeks. Though he was not an old man, only a few wisps of hair remained to him, sprouting above his ears, but those he had grown long as a woman’s. His armor was iron-grey chainmail over layers of boiled leather, plain and unadorned, and it spoke of age and hard use. Above his right shoulder the stained leather hilt of the blade strapped to his back was visible; a two-handed greatsword, too long to be worn at his side.Edit - fixed the quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armidil0 Posted December 10, 2012 Share Posted December 10, 2012 My take on that vision from Bran is that it goes from literal to figurative.He starts out seeing real time. Then he sees stuff that will literally happen in the future. Then he goes full symbolism at the very end.That specific part with Jaime/Hound ect seems to be where things go from Literal to Figurative. Literal in the sense that it is happening now-ish, but figurative in that it's symbolic how he saw it. I think I went through once, and tried to explain it better. I shall go on a hunt*.* Maybe go on a hunt. I have two finals today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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