Heresy 32

[Lykos]

Black Crow,didn´t we come across House Morrigen before? Maybe it was another thread. There is another interesting House from the Stormlands loyal to Stannis.

House Massey, whose coat of arms evokes the image of three eyes, also the name stonedance and the labyrinth is connected to pagan rituals. Young men and maids would dance along the lines of the labyrinth dancing towards each other and away from each other as they approach the center.

Prehistoric labyrinths are believed to have served as traps for malevolent spirits or as defined paths for ritual dances.

Labyrinth-Wikipedia cultural meanings.

I really think the Three Eyed Crow danced a similar dance with Melisandre to make her see Stannis as Azor Ahai Reborn. I´m not sure that "The Morrigan" is using Patchface though, he might just be able to sense it´s presence, since he was touched by death. Tze´s post indicates that Patchface recognizes Bloodraven inside the White Raven that announces the end of summer, he also seems to receive visions, but I don´t see the sense of having them being blurted out for Bloodraven. :dunno:

I´m in no fit state to post, it seems.

[Black Crow]

What also struck me about House Morrigen, which I hadn't properly appreciated before checking the Wiki :bang: is that they are Storm Lords. This may or may not mean anything in the current context, but of course Storm's End itself is in some measure the mirror of Winterfell in the North - a castle supposedly raised by Bran the Builder with magic in the Walls.

[Little Wing]

What also struck me about House Morrigen, which I hadn't properly appreciated before checking the Wiki :bang: is that they are Storm Lords. This may or may not mean anything in the current context, but of course Storm's End itself is in some measure the mirror of Winterfell in the North - a castle supposedly raised by Bran the Builder with magic in the Walls.

The Storm Crows :o

That crow's leaving its feathers all over the place (books) ...

[Tyryan Lannister]

The Storm Crows :o

That crow's leaving its feathers all over the place (books) ...

Hmmm... let's try to catalogue it!

We have:

• 3EC and Watchmen being called Crows in the North
  
• Crow's Eye in the West/Iron Islands
  
• Stormcrows in the East/Ghiscari-Valyrian lands
  
• House Morrigen in the Stormlands (The South?)
  

hmmm.... Morrigan is a "death" persona... Euron is definitely an instrument of war (death); Dany (or, more accurately, her dragons as controlled by her spoiled little self) is an instrument of conquest and destruction (death); Stannis is an instrument of cold, logic, emotionless justice (which leads many criminals etc. to, well, death); and then that leaves an instrument of death left to be identified with the North--my bet is on Bran/BR being instruments of the "circle of life" (of which death is part)

It seems that references to Crows tend to be tied in with a person of power being an instrument of an aspect of death giving.

[Tyryan Lannister]

and now for your daily weather announcement:

IT'S SNOWING!!! YAY!!!!!! :commie:

And nice new pic Little Wing

[Black Crow]

Yeah, that lot had occurred to me too.

I think its worth emphasising that I don't actually think that House Morrigen is going to suddenly up and reveal themselves as anything significant, but rather that the clue thus offered pointing to the Morrigan is more substantial than it first appeared. Their sigil of a crow in flight is hardly subtle and neither are all the other crow references, including both the Storm Crows and Tyrion's very own Stone Crows.

Although it was the three human aspects of the Morrigan that first led me to speculate on the three-eyed crow, I'm more inclined now to leave that one to Bloodraven and place the Morrigan (rather than Bloodraven) as Mormont's and now Jon's crow, with dominion (for lack of a better word) over all the other crows - and we have of course had A Feast for... Crows.

[Little Wing]

There was also that reference of the drowned crow on Balon's shoulder, in the Ghost of HH's prophecy of his death. I rather liked the way the 3 human aspects of the Morrigan were tied to the 3EC instead of Bloodraven. It can still be Mormont's raven as well :dunno:

[Melifeather]

Thistle gouged her eyes out knowing Varamyr wouldn't stay if he couldn't see. How did she know that?

I think what Little Wing said about Benjen eating an onion was interesting. It doesn't have to mean that he'll meet Davos, but he could find himself in a situation similar to Stannia: under siege and starving, but like Stannis, survives by eating something unpleasant but sustenance none the less. Will Benjen find himself in a position where he will resort to cannibalism?

BTW...7 inches and still snowing!

[Runaway Penguin]

But later on she is mentioned with blue eyes... But in AGoT prologue when Ser Royce is wighted, only his healthy eye is blue, the other (injured by a splinter of the sword) isn't. Maybe she did not gouge her eyes, just scratched the surrounding and blood ran over the eyes and not out of them?

[Little Wing]

Yeah, Royce had iron in his eye, a shard of his sword when it shattered - iron hinders magic. It seems gouging out your eyes doesn't work against wightification but it sure does inflict enough pain to fight off a warg from claiming your body.

Wait, does that prove that the Others are not warging the dead/wights? Umph... <_<

[Melifeather]

See Royce had a piece of iron in his eye which is known to inhibit magic. That's why the Stark dead have iron swords on their crypts...so they don't rise. Wights are powered by WW...the blue eye signifies that the power is on. Warging is different, apparently in that there's no outward clue that its happening.

[Runaway Penguin]

So you guess we will see 2 Starks rise?

(After all one of the swords Osha's party took was Eddard's IIRC and Eddar ain't there yet)

[Melifeather]

Do we know if Ned's bones made it to Winterfell yet? Didn't Lady Dustin threaten to take them?

[Runaway Penguin]

I think Lady Dustin intends to take them to prevent them gettign to Boltons (the "I hate Starks" is a bit over the top as it seems - a bit like making sure noone who overhears doubts her motivations, especially not the Boltons) but no, the bones ain't there yet. If Starks rise at the same moment, Silent Sisters are in for a surprise when Ned knocks on the lid of the coffin :P

But if it is localised, we still have 2 potential Starks rising. Or more - didn't Theon talk about 5 swords missing? Maybe Mance knows something so he removed swords from two specific graves?

Or it is a red herring ;)

[alienarea]

I think Lady Dustin intends to take them to prevent them gettign to Boltons (the "I hate Starks" is a bit over the top as it seems - a bit like making sure noone who overhears doubts her motivations, especially not the Boltons) but no, the bones ain't there yet. If Starks rise at the same moment, Silent Sisters are in for a surprise when Ned knocks on the lid of the coffin :P

But if it is localised, we still have 2 potential Starks rising. Or more - didn't Theon talk about 5 swords missing? Maybe Mance knows something so he removed swords from two specific graves?

Or it is a red herring ;)

And the Hooded Man wore a hood because an undead man with a wolf's head ain't a funny sight.

Just kidding.

[Melifeather]

Sorry for the interruption, but I want to go back to the subject of whether or not Bloodraven is the 3EC. In GoT when Bran is unconscious, he notes his surroundings,

It was cold here in the darkness. There was no sun, no stars, only the ground below coming up to smash him, and the grey mists, and the whispering voice. He wanted to cry.

Not cry. Fly.

"I can't fly," Bran said. "I can't, I cant..."

How do you know? Have you ever tried?

The voice was high and thin.

Black Crow has asserted that Bloodraven's speech pattern is different that the 3EC, but this short exchange begs otherwise.

[alienarea]

IMHO the 3EC is Bloodraven plus, i.e. Bloodraven is only a part of the 3EC.

[Black Crow]

Sorry for the interruption, but I want to go back to the subject of whether or not Bloodraven is the 3EC. In GoT when Bran is unconscious, he notes his surroundings,

It was cold here in the darkness. There was no sun, no stars, only the ground below coming up to smash him, and the grey mists, and the whispering voice. He wanted to cry.

Not cry. Fly.

"I can't fly," Bran said. "I can't, I cant..."

How do you know? Have you ever tried?

The voice was high and thin.

Black Crow has asserted that Bloodraven's speech pattern is different that the 3EC, but this short exchange begs otherwise.

The three-eyed crow's "high and thin" voice isn't really consistent with Bloodraven's "dry" voice and his "harsh whisper". Notwithstanding, as I said above, although the triple aspect was what led me to the Morrigan I'm increasingly come to see her as the Crow first on Mormont's shoulder and now on Jon's, rather than as an ordinary one being warged by Bloodraven. Its far too perky for Bloodraven for a start. As discussed earlier I see him as the servant of the Morrigan (just as Mel suspects) rather than the evil genius running the show - apart from anything else he's a bit young to be the principal protagonist in the war fought since time began.

[Black Crow]

But if it is localised, we still have 2 potential Starks rising. Or more - didn't Theon talk about 5 swords missing? Maybe Mance knows something so he removed swords from two specific graves?

Or it is a red herring ;)

I think its partially a red herring. As we've discussed before this whole raising the dead business appears to be founded on the spirit sleeping in the body until it gradually decays into the earth, and resurrection therefore requires the spirit to be woken. We're pretty explicity told that the swords are to keep the Stark lords in their graves, which is consistent with what we know about iron blocking magic, but I wuld expect that its only until such time as body and spirit have properly decayed. The more recent dead might be a differrent matter, but governed by two factors - first is there a trigger which will prompt the resurrection, and second if it does occur I'd be more inclined to look for a spirit/ghost/shadow rather than a corporeal collection of mouldy bones and rotted flesh trying to claw out of a stone coffin.

[Black Crow]

On the iron business, somebody (sorry) proposed that given its blocking effect on magic, ordinary iron/steel as distinct from dragonsteel/Valyrian steel might be effective enough against Craster's boys, providing the swordsman was good enough to actually land a blow.

It occurs to me that this may very well be so, because the First Men used bronze, not iron, so if the Last Hero or anybody else got hold of an ordinary iron sword, he would for the first time have a weapon that could block if not defeat magic, without the complication of waiting until that Valyrian hi-tech stuff came along.