Hanging Freys and Swiping Crowns

[Ice Turtle]

I also agree that UnCat might be trying to crown one of her daughters. We saw that she is trying to find Arya (Merett Frey epilogue) I wonder what she is doing to find Sansa.

[franko99]

I agree with your post in general, the crown will be of significance*. But I don't get what you are trying to say with these parts, sorry. Are you suggesting that it's not really Robb's crown? That there was something weird going on in the Twins, because Ryman had the crown when he shouldn't have?

Personally, I never questioned why he would have it. To the Freys and the Lannisters it wasn't a symbol of power, it was a worthless piece of metal. If the Lannisters wanted to have it, they would have demanded it, but they don't care. IIRC, we are even not told that they collect Jeyne's crown, when it was supposed to be at Riverrun and was explicitly brought up in conversation. Personally, I'm more curious about where that one went/will go, because I'm not sure that it will come up again, while I am sure that Robb's crown will change hands again and play a bigger role in the story.

* One of my guesses is that it will make it to Sansa through Brienne. I'm a huge fan of the idea of reconciliation of some sorts between UnCat and Jon, but I don't see her trying to honor Robb's will and crowning him, when she knows her daughters might still be alive. Plus, that would just be cheesy and eyeroll-inducing.

Exactly, for the Freys and Lannisters the crown didn't have any importance at all, it was meaningless, the Kindom of the North was shattered, the Starks wipe out, and the Northern cause destoyed. It wasn't even gold to have a monetary value. They could have melted down, but I guess they decided to bring it to Riverrun to give a final "f**k you" to the Blackfish, nothing more.

The idea of Cat trying to crown Jon just sounds too contrived and ridiculous to be true, so I very much doubt that's the case.

Cat is still looking for her children. She knows that the Brotherhood without Banners had Arya fairly recently, and she also knows that Sansa was still alive and "safe" in King's Landing right up until Joffrey's death. So, to me, the most likely scenario is simply that the crown symbolises to Catelyn hope for the future of her children. By clinging to the crown, she is clinging to the idea that she will one day find Arya or Sansa and crown them. It's a sign that Lady Stoneheart isn't simply a force of vengeance; she remembers.

:agree: This, maybe Robb's crown plays a bigger part later in the story, but right now to SH it has an emotional value, more than a political one

[Thendel]

I believe OP has already stated the answer to why the crown was at Riverrun: Because Ryman was scum even among Freys. Having a whore fool around with Robb's crown seems like just the thing that'd make the man tick, and he probably got it because no one ever wanted it, and nobody cared what he did with it, being the heir with Stevron dead. I think Old Walder didn't send it to the Lannisters because he knew Tywin wouldn't care, so he might as well indulge his grandson in mocking the Starks further.

[Dolorous Nedd]

The idea of Cat trying to crown Jon just sounds too contrived and ridiculous to be true, so I very much doubt that's the case.

On the other hand many would be shocked by it. What an amazing turn of events that would be. She could see it as granting Robb one of his final wishes and setting a major wrong in her life to right.

[JaegrM]

On the other hand many would be shocked by it. What an amazing turn of events that would be. She could see it as granting Robb one of his final wishes and setting a major wrong in her life to right.

I seriously doubt that.

Cat never seemed like the type to doubt her moral judgement and Jon has in no way done anything to help her change her mind.

At best she's heard how he won the LC posistion through trickery, how he's allowed wildlings through the gate, how he's half a wildling himself, he's a turncloak, and how he's led the Nightwatch to break it's vows of neutrality and side with Stannis (The man in league with the dark arts who told her that Robb's time would come)

[DrunkSister]

As far as UnCat knows, she has two living daughters. Soon ( :bawl: :crying: :bawl: ) Rickon will reappear. Why would she want to crown Jon?

[Stoned Dragon]

I agree that UnCat probably isn't giving much thought to Jon Snow, but I think we need to avoid putting Rickon in this conversation since we don't have evidence that she knows about him as of yet and news of his arrival from Skagos would take a while to trickle back to her.

Brienne/Jaime each made oaths to Cat regarding her children that are unfulfilled; Jaime has soured on his family and is searching for redemption; The Blackfish is out of Riverrun and presumably heading back to the Vale, which has tons of food and soldiers and, coincidentally, Sansa; Littlefinger's plot with Sansa requires a public reveal of her heritage that is meant to inspire a military response from her fiance, the "Robert-Baratheon-like" Harry the Heir; and the BwB is amping up (potentially) for a Red Wedding Redux.

If I had to just make a wild guess, I'd say that UnCat is likely going to figure out where Sansa is before she finds out anything more about Arya or Rickon (let alone Bran). Having Jaime and/or Brienne go to the Vale, where they'd be watched by the Blackfish, and deliver Sansa her brother's crown would probably go a long way towards instigating the Vale to side with the North (or, perhaps, the Northern Conspiracy that may be hatching at the moment). It would connect Cat to one of her children, help confer legitimacy on Sansa (since people would need proof of who she really was for LF's plot to work), and set up an interesting clash when Rickon is eventually discovered.

[Alester Florent]

I don't think there's anything particularly strange about the crown's being at Riverrun. Since the fall of Winterfell Riverrun has been the de facto capital of the kingdom of the North; it was Robb's principal base of operations; it's the biggest remaining loyalist Stark stronghold; at the siege (in either camp) there are two of the King in the North's uncles, his widow, and potential unborn heirs to both the houses of Stark and Tully - not to mention the heir to the Twins, and Emmon Frey, who seems to think he's being elevated to Lord Paramount of the Riverlands even though he isn't. There's also a massive Lannister/Frey army encamped outside which renders maximum possible security.

The crown only has value as a symbol, not for any intrinsic value, so there's no point hanging onto it as treasure - it's just a trophy, and if you're going to parade some relic of the former regime around in an attempt to annoy loyalists, then, short of Bear Island, there's probably no better place to take it than Riverrun. Sticking it on the road to Kings Landing is just inviting ambush by Stark/Tully loyalists, bandits, or the BWB, and achieves nothing of significance even if successful.

[Lyanna Stark]

If I had to just make a wild guess, I'd say that UnCat is likely going to figure out where Sansa is before she finds out anything more about Arya or Rickon (let alone Bran). Having Jaime and/or Brienne go to the Vale, where they'd be watched by the Blackfish, and deliver Sansa her brother's crown would probably go a long way towards instigating the Vale to side with the North (or, perhaps, the Northern Conspiracy that may be hatching at the moment). It would connect Cat to one of her children, help confer legitimacy on Sansa (since people would need proof of who she really was for LF's plot to work), and set up an interesting clash when Rickon is eventually discovered.

One huge issue with that though that remains unresolved: Sansa is not Sansa Stark, she is Sansa Lannister until/if the marriage to Tyrion is made void. As it currently stands, Sansa cannot marry Harry, or Littlefinger, or anyone else. The tragedy of the marriage was that it made her a Lannister, even if she did not want it.

[Reznak mo Reznak]

little crackpot here, but its always struck me as odd that there has only been one and only one fire zombie. Why did it work? People have talked about Melisandre only saw Stannis as AA because it put her on a path closer to Jon (or someone Jon will lead her to). I always found the transition from unBeric to unCat a little lacking in detail, and suspect there was more to it.

What if the fire that animates UnCat is of the same nature. It started in Beric, and moved to Catelyn of its own will because that would get it closer to Jon eventually. And when UnCat finds Jon, she gives him the kiss of fire... not because its her will but because its the will of the spirit that is reanimates her. Maybe she even ends up killing Jamie, and uses his body as the vessel to get the fire there.

[JaegrM]

little crackpot here, but its always struck me as odd that there has only been one and only one fire zombie. Why did it work? People have talked about Melisandre only saw Stannis as AA because it put her on a path closer to Jon (or someone Jon will lead her to). I always found the transition from unBeric to unCat a little lacking in detail, and suspect there was more to it.

What if the fire that animates UnCat is of the same nature. It started in Beric, and moved to Catelyn of its own will because that would get it closer to Jon eventually. And when UnCat finds Jon, she gives him the kiss of fire... not because its her will but because its the will of the spirit that is reanimates her. Maybe she even ends up killing Jamie, and uses his body as the vessel to get the fire there.

By the time they got to the wall though, Jon would be pretty decomposed

[Sand Snake No. 9]

Wasn't Robb's crown nailed to Greywind's head after the head was sewn onto Robb's body? I wonder what those damn Frey's did with that grotesque creation after they made it. If it was indeed nailed to Greywind's head then it being in Ryman's possession is even more of a mystery; what would any right-minded person want with a crown that had to be pulled off the head of a corpse?

Oh, yeah, Ryman's a Frey. Nevermind.

The crown is clearly a reminder of all that Cat's lost, and I think having it in her possession would strengthen her desire for revenge and would lead her to hanging Brienne et al. I also think the crown might very well make its way back North and wind up on the head of the next King of the North, or King of Winter, or perhaps even the Night's King. I wouldn't be surprised if it wound up on Jon -- that damn raven had to be calling him "King" for a reason. On the other hand I don't think LSH would hand the crown to Jon herself.

Come to think of it, a bronze and iron crown would go nicely with an iron throne, although bronze and iron clearly have some special connection with the North. Remember Jojen and Meera's oath:

To Winterfell we pledge the faith of Greywater. Hearth and harvest and we yield up to you, my lord. Our swords and spears and arrows are yours to command. Grant mercy to our weak, help to our helpless, and justice to all, and we shall never fail you." — Both

"I swear it by earth and water." — Jojen

"I swear it by bronze and iron." — Meera

"We swear it by ice and fire." — Both

[Helgar]

I believe Ryman's lady friend was a in cahoots with Tom O'Sevens and the BWB. I believe they located the same way Jaime Lannister, through Hildy.

Mind=blown! This actually makes sense and it would be awesome if it were true! Even the whores are on the Starks' side. :D

[Old-Growth]

SS#9:

That was either Bloodraven or Bran, more likely the former. Either way King of Westeros was meant, not King in the North.

[Lady Green]

Is it definately the same crown? As unlikely as it is, unCat went off to the Neck and no one knows why, could it be that that is actually the original crown of winter?

[Golden&Crimson]

Maybe Catelyn want the Crown of the Kings in the North for two reasons:

1st: to have with her something that was from her beloved older son, in the same way a mother can have with her a photo of a deceased son.

2nd: to give later the Crown to the real heir of Robb, his younger brother Bran, and if not possible for Catelyn, to Rickon; and being the Crown a most significant symbol of the northern realm, that object should be given to the legitimate heirs of the Stark line.

[Grip]

I like this theory! I wonder though just how much of a control Lady Stoneheart has over the BwB? We know they have taken a turn for the worse, becoming more dark, so it might be that she is indeed very influential. Why I am asking this is because they are supposedly kings men, Robert's men, and yet by doing this would support the King in the North. I suppose that either they arent fully aware of the importance of the crown, dont care or simply wants to hang Frey's. I think that excluding LS they have no real interest in whats going on up north. Whatever the case this theory is a nice one.

[Lady Green]

I like this theory! I wonder though just how much of a control Lady Stoneheart has over the BwB? We know they have taken a turn for the worse, becoming more dark, so it might be that she is indeed very influential. Why I am asking this is because they are supposedly kings men, Robert's men, and yet by doing this would support the King in the North. I suppose that either they arent fully aware of the importance of the crown, dont care or simply wants to hang Frey's. I think that excluding LS they have no real interest in whats going on up north. Whatever the case this theory is a nice one.

I think in the eyes of the BwB, unCat is the wife of the man who gave them their orders and that's why she has so much control/power over them.

[The Snowman]

SS#9:

That was either Bloodraven or Bran, more likely the former. Either way King of Westeros was meant, not King in the North.

That's not really going to matter. I don't see the Iron Throne surviving. Welcome back to the 5-7 Kingdoms of Westeros.

Anyway back on topic.

It certainly is the same crown and I believe that the BWB will use it in somefashion while in the south. Riverrun will likely see the RW 2.0. Sansa is in the Vale but as she is technically a Lannister and can't really get the marriage annulled since she is a prime suspect for killing the King. The High Septon proabably won't play ball so being a Stark Queen in the North can't happen as yet.......the North and the Vale could simply give the ups to the High Sparrow and annul it themselves.

The crown is a big symbol and all they have to do is place it on either Jon, Bran, Rickon, Sansa or Arya's head and likely half of Westeros will flip their shit. Jon would be best for the cause (given that he survives) as he is proven in battle and looks like Ned, also most importantly he can lead an army while the rest of his siblings can't.....unless Bran wants to warg a shitload of dangerous animals into war.

Also if they crowned one of them it would more than likely bring the rest out of hiding. If Jon were crowned then Rickon, Arya and Sansa would immedietly reveal themselves and the same occurance would likely happen for the rest of the siblings/cousins.

[Lady Green]

That's not really going to matter. I don't see the Iron Throne surviving. Welcome back to the 5-7 Kingdoms of Westeros.

Anyway back on topic.

It certainly is the same crown and I believe that the BWB will use it in somefashion while in the south. Riverrun will likely see the RW 2.0. Sansa is in the Vale but as she is technically a Lannister and can't really get the marriage annulled since she is a prime suspect for killing the King. The High Septon proabably won't play ball so being a Stark Queen in the North can't happen as yet.......the North and the Vale could simply give the ups to the High Sparrow and annul it themselves.

The crown is a big symbol and all they have to do is place it on either Jon, Bran, Rickon, Sansa or Arya's head and likely half of Westeros will flip their shit. Jon would be best for the cause (given that he survives) as he is proven in battle and looks like Ned, also most importantly he can lead an army while the rest of his siblings can't.....unless Bran wants to warg a shitload of dangerous animals into war.

Also if they crowned one of them it would more than likely bring the rest out of hiding. If Jon were crowned then Rickon, Arya and Sansa would immedietly reveal themselves and the same occurance would likely happen for the rest of the siblings/cousins.

Can't Bran only warg one thing at a time though?

The crown could be used as bait for the Freys/Lannisters by the BwB, for example if they decided to crown someone (not necessarilly really crown, maybe just pretend to crown) then they could use it as a trap/ambush. Only works if they're wanting this to happen around Moat Cailin or other such defendable location though.