MotherAnduin Posted December 20, 2012 Share Posted December 20, 2012 Barristan Selmy is generally regarded as the finest living knight in ASOIAF. But i always saw him as exactly as the kind of knights Sandor Clegane hates. Selmy has betrayed or atleast failed three out four kings that he has served till now. He betrayed Aerys by serving Robert, Robert by not enforcing his will and Joffrey by serving Dany. It can be said that he betrayed Viserys, the king of Targaryen dynasty and Daenerys too. So how is he regarded as a true knight? Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dornish Whine Posted December 20, 2012 Share Posted December 20, 2012 Here we go again :cool4:Bari put honoring his vows above his own morality. His purpose was to serve and protect the King and the royal family, so he did so almost blindly. Being dismissed by Joffery woke him up and he has been making up for his mistakes ever since. Honor is held in a very high regard in Westeros, so Bari being faithful to his vows was seen as the epitome of a True Knight. His battle prowess help to solidify these opinions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kittykatknits Posted December 20, 2012 Share Posted December 20, 2012 Ah, Ser Barristan the Not so Bold!He bravely kept to his vows to protect the king and yet did nothing for Viserys or Dany, choosing to bend the knee to Robert. Later, he took another knightly stand by choosing to remain silent over killing Dany until actually asked for his opinion. In classic Barry style, he gives it and then meekly does what he is told. Ser Barriston then courageously goes on to do nothing while Ned is arrested, despite knowing the contents of Robert's will.The fact that he's called the finest living knight just shows to me how hypcritical and broken the ideals of knighthood and chivalry actually is. He's a great example of what Sandor Clegane was talking about and how amusing that the Hound is the one to take his place on the KG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rolex Baratheon Posted December 20, 2012 Share Posted December 20, 2012 To summarize his character in my opinion, he's a conservative fellow who is extremely brave when it comes to physical danger and battle, but not brave at all when it comes to making decisions concerning high things like honour and loyalty and allegiance. He seems weak in that aspect, hence the serving 3 different kings role. Barristan also comes across as an extremely simple dude, and I find it in character for a simple dude to just go "Okay, next king..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
straits Posted December 20, 2012 Share Posted December 20, 2012 I think it's harsh to use Selmi as an example of what is wrong with knighthood. He is not the filth you see with the likes of Gregor, or the pettiness of Balon Swann, or the incompetence of Oakheart. His problem is that he is a tool. You see it with Aerys, you see it with Robert, you see it when Ned dies, as you said KKK. And now we're seeing it with Dany. He's a yesman.Note that he fought till the end for the one dynasty he tried protecting, the Targs. I could not blame him for 'choosing to bend knee' when he was nearly dead on the battlefield. He did not beg for mercy, Robert gave it to him. Had they decided to cut his throat, he would have taken that too. That is a problem in itself, and a further indication of his lack of ego, I'd say. If he was more selfish he'd have been in a better place, one way or another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Mountain That Flies Posted December 20, 2012 Share Posted December 20, 2012 It's briefly mentioned in the OP of the thread Dornish Whine attached, but it's worth noting that despite being LC for 15 years, Selmy seems to have no degree of loyalty from the Kingsguard when he's dismissed. While we know at least Meryn Trant and Boros Blount are Cersei's creatures and Jaime is who he is, Selmy doesn't seem to have put much work into creating an organized and disciplined Kingsguard. Given how little conflict there was for most of Robert's reign, you think he would have had enough time to make his group more of a true unit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vuron Posted December 20, 2012 Share Posted December 20, 2012 Barristan Selmy is generally regarded as the finest living knight in ASOIAF. But i always saw him as exactly as the kind of knights Sandor Clegane hates. Selmy has betrayed or atleast failed three out four kings that he has served till now. He betrayed Aerys by serving Robert, Robert by not enforcing his will and Joffrey by serving Dany. It can be said that he betrayed Viserys, the king of Targaryen dynasty and Daenerys too. So how is he regarded as a true knight? Thoughts?The only point of your post that is correct is the failure to not enforce Robert's will.The KG support the office of the King, and not the King, himself. They are like any position in today's society that is appointed by the President or another ruler. The supreme court justices, head of the CIA, and other appointed positions don't all quit if a new president gets elected and continue to work for the past president. Selmy serves Aerys until his death. Robert is crowned king and the duty of the KG is still to support the crown, which happens to be Robert. Once Robert is crowned and the new regime takes control, Viserys and Dany are no longer the responsibility of the KG. The KG is a position for life and they don't all get replaced every time there is a new king.Selmy is dismissed by Joffrey, so how could he betray Joffrey? It is only after his dismissal that Selmy decides to track down Dany to see if she is worthy of being Queen.I do agree with many of the other posters that say he's a "yes" man, but, actually, that is his position. It's the KG duty to follow the orders and will of the current king. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackfish Tully Posted December 20, 2012 Share Posted December 20, 2012 It's briefly mentioned in the OP of the thread Dornish Whine attached, but it's worth noting that despite being LC for 15 years, Selmy seems to have no degree of loyalty from the Kingsguard when he's dismissed. While we know at least Meryn Trant and Boros Blount are Cersei's creatures and Jaime is who he is, Selmy doesn't seem to have put much work into creating an organized and disciplined Kingsguard. Given how little conflict there was for most of Robert's reign, you think he would have had enough time to make his group more of a true unit.To summarize his character in my opinion, he's a conservative fellow who is extremely brave when it comes to physical danger and battle, but not brave at all when it comes to making decisions concerning high things like honour and loyalty and allegiance. He seems weak in that aspect, hence the serving 3 different kings role. Barristan also comes across as an extremely simple dude, and I find it in character for a simple dude to just go "Okay, next king..."I'm having a hard time understanding your point, when the King dies the Kingsguard serves the next King , how does it make him simple because he has served more than one King. Did you read Barristan's POV in ADWD? he comes across as anything but simple but instead he's a very thoughtful person who is trying make the best decisions in a very difficult situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MotherAnduin Posted December 20, 2012 Author Share Posted December 20, 2012 The only point of your post that is correct is the failure to not enforce Robert's will.The KG support the office of the King, and not the King, himself. They are like any position in today's society that is appointed by the President or another ruler. The supreme court justices, head of the CIA, and other appointed positions don't all quit if a new president gets elected and continue to work for the past president. Selmy serves Aerys until his death. Robert is crowned king and the duty of the KG is still to support the crown, which happens to be Robert. Once Robert is crowned and the new regime takes control, Viserys and Dany are no longer the responsibility of the KG. The KG is a position for life and they don't all get replaced every time there is a new king.Selmy is dismissed by Joffrey, so how could he betray Joffrey? It is only after his dismissal that Selmy decides to track down Dany to see if she is worthy of being Queen.I do agree with many of the other posters that say he's a "yes" man, but, actually, that is his position. It's the KG duty to follow the orders and will of the current king.Kingsguard is an institution created by Targaryens to serve Targaryens. They are not like maesters who are bound to castles. Jon Arryn chose to continue the tradition. There was no mention of what the Kingsguard ought to do if the Targaryen dynasty is overthrown. And even if Joffery dismissed Selmy, he is still a part of the realm. Serving a foreign invader makes Selmy a textbook traitor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
straits Posted December 20, 2012 Share Posted December 20, 2012 Actually, if it makes him a traitor, it is hardly a clear cut definition, which you are implying by adding 'textbook'. Textbook traitors leave before they are dismissed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vuron Posted December 20, 2012 Share Posted December 20, 2012 Kingsguard is an institution created by Targaryens to serve Targaryens. They are not like maesters who are bound to castles. Jon Arryn chose to continue the tradition. There was no mention of what the Kingsguard ought to do if the Targaryen dynasty is overthrown. And even if Joffery dismissed Selmy, he is still a part of the realm. Serving a foreign invader makes Selmy a textbook traitor.If you're going to use the definition of KG as Targ bodyguards, then you have to label all the KG still living at the end of the war as traitors. Selmy wasn't the only member of the KG to transition to the new king.Also, Dany isn't exactly a foreign invader. She is from Westeros and nobody even knows of her intention to invade Westeros when Selmy joins her cause. Some people assume that she's going to invade (and have since the beginning of GoT when it was Viserys), but nobody outside of her inner circle knows that she has intentions of reclaiming the throne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-Ro Posted December 20, 2012 Share Posted December 20, 2012 Well, selmy is not the brightest of fellows, and I have lost a good measure of respect for him since we got his pov in dance. He is no wear near as bad as guys like clegane or tywin but he is not willing to stand up for what he feels is right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Son of the Smiling Knight Posted December 20, 2012 Share Posted December 20, 2012 Damn, Barristan is getting killed lately, I'm just glad its not jaime :cool4: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-Ro Posted December 20, 2012 Share Posted December 20, 2012 Damn, Barristan is getting killed lately, I'm just glad its not jaime :cool4:Oh don't get me started on sir my shit don't smell Jaime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damar Posted December 20, 2012 Share Posted December 20, 2012 Well, selmy is not the brightest of fellows, and I have lost a good measure of respect for him since we got his pov in dance. He is no wear near as bad as guys like clegane or tywin but he is not willing to stand up for what he feels is right.For me it's the opposite. Barristan clearly loathes and despises those of the KG who took decisions for themselves and play the Game. And clearly he has no say in the matter, given Jaime despite murdering the king was kept on in the KG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted December 20, 2012 Share Posted December 20, 2012 Ah, Ser Barristan the Not so Bold!He bravely kept to his vows to protect the king and yet did nothing for Viserys or Dany, choosing to bend the knee to Robert. Later, he took another knightly stand by choosing to remain silent over killing Dany until actually asked for his opinion. In classic Barry style, he gives it and then meekly does what he is told. Ser Barriston then courageously goes on to do nothing while Ned is arrested, despite knowing the contents of Robert's will.The fact that he's called the finest living knight just shows to me how hypcritical and broken the ideals of knighthood and chivalry actually is. He's a great example of what Sandor Clegane was talking about and how amusing that the Hound is the one to take his place on the KG.I doubt it could have been said better Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kittykatknits Posted December 20, 2012 Share Posted December 20, 2012 The KG support the office of the King, and not the King, himself. They are like any position in today's society that is appointed by the President or another ruler. The supreme court justices, head of the CIA, and other appointed positions don't all quit if a new president gets elected and continue to work for the past president.Selmy serves Aerys until his death. Robert is crowned king and the duty of the KG is still to support the crown, which happens to be Robert. Once Robert is crowned and the new regime takes control, Viserys and Dany are no longer the responsibility of the KG. The KG is a position for life and they don't all get replaced every time there is a new king.I think the three members of the KG at the Tower of Joy would probably disagree with you...Well, selmy is not the brightest of fellows, and I have lost a good measure of respect for him since we got his pov in dance. He is no wear near as bad as guys like clegane or tywin but he is not willing to stand up for what he feels is right.Yep, I could not agree more. He's brave with a sword but he's a coward without one. From what I saw of his POV was effort to rationalize much of his past behavior, like that comment that he would have killed Robert himself if he had seen him laughing.The reaction to him reminds me of Stannis (and I do not want to derail this thread). The characters give us one impression of Stannis but as we learn more about the character, we realize that isn't actually correct. Same with Barry, just because other characters call him a perfect knight doesn't mean we can't dig a bit deeper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackfish Tully Posted December 20, 2012 Share Posted December 20, 2012 Well, selmy is not the brightest of fellows, and I have lost a good measure of respect for him since we got his pov in dance. He is no wear near as bad as guys like clegane or tywin but he is not willing to stand up for what he feels is right.Did you even read his POV? how can you say after reading it that he is not willing to stand up for what he feels is right. He takes over the government , puts the King in prison and get ready to start a war, he has shown without a doubt that he is not afraid to do anything that he thinks would help Dany when she returns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-Ro Posted December 20, 2012 Share Posted December 20, 2012 @k3 I agree 110% especially with regards to people's perception of stannis and baristan. They are spoken if one way but we find out that what people think of them could not be further from the truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E-Ro Posted December 20, 2012 Share Posted December 20, 2012 Did you even read his POV? how can you say after reading it that he is not willing to stand up for what he feels is right. He takes over the government , puts the King in prison and get ready to start a war, he has shown without a doubt that he is not afraid to do anything that he thinks would help Dany when she returns.Yes I read his pov and I didn't like what was revealed about him at all. He struggles with decision making and just goes along with whoever is in charge, much like a dog he needs a master. Would you say that serving Robert after the rebellion was what he believed in? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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