Little Wing Posted January 1, 2013 Share Posted January 1, 2013 Forgot about about Othor and Jafer. Maybe the NW had heard stories that burning the bodies gets rid of the problems?The Varamyr part is a thing against my theory but I find it illogical that wights would rise just because there's Others beyond the Wall. We'll hopefully get an answer for this in TWoW.Then again the dead wildlings that Jon put in the cells haven't woken up, but this might be because of the Wall between them and the Others.That's true (the bold part) and I'm probably way off in thinking it's enough to raise wights, but the cold mists/Others making the kill being enough certainly makes sense, to me at least...The dead Jon retrieved were, this will sound morbid but, fresh dead. I'm guessing there's a time period before you turn wight if dead beyond the wall when the Others are around, but as I said, it's just my guess... The reason why I think in this way is that I consider them to be that strong of a force of nature, or should I say death? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esa1996 Posted January 1, 2013 Share Posted January 1, 2013 That's true (the bold part) and I'm probably way off in thinking it's enough to raise wights, but the cold mists/Others making the kill being enough certainly makes sense, to me at least...The dead Jon retrieved were, this will sound morbid but, fresh dead. I'm guessing there's a time period before you turn wight if dead beyond the wall when the Others are around, but as I said, it's just my guess... The reason why I think in this way is that I consider them to be that strong of a force of nature, or should I say death?Doesn't seem impossible to me either. Maybe the mere presence of Others turns bodies into wights and the closer the Others are the faster it happens. This would explain the quick transition from body to wight of Waymar Royce. Also, it isn't ruled out by the Varamyr chapter. There might have been Others near by but out of sight. Remembering their reflective armor they might be semi close although being unseen by Varamyr. The cold they (supposedly) bring with them is a problem in this. Varamyr would have felt them even if he didn't see them. Maybe they can control the cold they bring with them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little Wing Posted January 1, 2013 Share Posted January 1, 2013 Well, yeah, that was my notion with Royce several posts before, that being killed directly by an Other or frozen to death by the mists they bring turns you wight almost immediately. It just doesn't seem very practical to have to "personally" raise every single wight ... but I guess those cold mists will do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nanother Posted January 1, 2013 Share Posted January 1, 2013 Re: wights: it seems obvious to me that the personal (corporeal?) presence of the Others is not needed to make wights (see Thistle & co). But as other posters mentioned, they apparently have the ability to turn into 'cold mist', or, in any case, this 'cold mist' is associated with them somehow. Note that it's different from simply 'cold'. I'd guess this can do the job just as well as corporeal Others. So if someone is killed but isn't wightified, it's either because the Others happen to be elsewhere and don't notice, or they're not interested, or, possibly, being hindered by fire (not sure whether that works). In the case of the Castle Black wildlings, all three are possible. There also could be people who are resistant to wightification, but that's unlikely to be significant in this case...By the way, I recall someone in the books mentioning that men from some other tower than CB also found some sleeping wights, but had the sense to burn them right away...but I can't find it anywhere now - does anyone remember where it might be? Or did I just imagine reading it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted January 1, 2013 Author Share Posted January 1, 2013 Don't recall that, but in general terms as I said earlier given the way cold is associated with the process I'd suspect its got something to do with magic ice crystals in the said cold air - magic pixie dust if you prefer. Craster's boys don't need to physically touch anyone or anything to turn it into a wight - there are far too many wights for that to be practical, but scattering the magic pixie dust would be a different matter.ETA: Gods, page 20 and post 385 - I'm going to have to knock up an OP for Heresy 36 instead of pushing it on to Tyryan for later in the week while I'm away... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esa1996 Posted January 1, 2013 Share Posted January 1, 2013 Re: wights: it seems obvious to me that the personal (corporeal?) presence of the Others is not needed to make wights (see Thistle & co). But as other posters mentioned, they apparently have the ability to turn into 'cold mist', or, in any case, this 'cold mist' is associated with them somehow. Note that it's different from simply 'cold'. I'd guess this can do the job just as well as corporeal Others. So if someone is killed but isn't wightified, it's either because the Others happen to be elsewhere and don't notice, or they're not interested, or, possibly, being hindered by fire (not sure whether that works). In the case of the Castle Black wildlings, all three are possible. There also could be people who are resistant to wightification, but that's unlikely to be significant in this case...By the way, I recall someone in the books mentioning that men from some other tower than CB also found some sleeping wights, but had the sense to burn them right away...but I can't find it anywhere now - does anyone remember where it might be? Or did I just imagine reading it?I don't think they can turn into mist. When Tormund asked Jon "How can you fight mist" and said something about mist with fangs, I think he meant that the Others can bring a mist with them and thanks to their reflective armor they are near invisible in it as the visibility is already bad.Otherwise I agree with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esa1996 Posted January 1, 2013 Share Posted January 1, 2013 Does anyone else besides me question what one of Craster's wives says about the Others being Craster's sons? I feel it would be kinda strange for a total change of race to happen.What could they be used for?1. I have a theory with no real proof that far in the north there are Other bodies dating from the Long Night and that Craster's children are sacrificed to bring them back to life. It's the old "Life for life" stuff seen in Drogo's revival, and loads of other books. (Unlikely but possible)2. They could be spies sent south of the wall (I don't believe in this one)3. Having "Halfothers" might be useful for understanding humans better. (Don't really believe in this one either) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyryan Lannister Posted January 1, 2013 Share Posted January 1, 2013 Sorry, I don't quite follow you.Bloodraven is the son of Aegon Targaryon and Mylessa Blackwood, while Bran is the son of Eddard Stark and Catelyn Tully. They're not related.For what it's worth, there is the fact that both mothers come from First Men Riverlands families Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyryan Lannister Posted January 1, 2013 Share Posted January 1, 2013 I was discussing Jon's parentage with Wolfmaid because she was wondering if R=L=J was even important. I replied back with the maternal aspect being more important in his case, but I added that I thought having Targaryen paternity was still important also somehow.I think that the only important thing about Jon having Targ is that it makes him an Ice Dragon, which could be rendered Ice Serpent... which, regardless of blood relationships, if Bloodraven has been guiding Mance in some way, then BR is Odin to Mance's Thor to Jon's Jormungandr, meaning that Mance and Jon are destined to fight and kill each other.Edit: typed wrong name Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted January 1, 2013 Author Share Posted January 1, 2013 I don't think they can turn into mist. When Tormund asked Jon "How can you fight mist" and said something about mist with fangs, I think he meant that the Others can bring a mist with them and thanks to their reflective armor they are near invisible in it as the visibility is already bad.Otherwise I agree with you.The way we figured it a while back is the other way around. That is they ride the winds as a fine mist of ice crystals which can take a corporeal form. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyryan Lannister Posted January 1, 2013 Share Posted January 1, 2013 It also depends a bit on exactly what a Hell Hound might be - I rather had the impression that most people in Westeros equated themn with Direwolves.ETA: perhaps the Nights King had a white direwolf too.Maybe there were once redhead direwolves... you know, touched by fire Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted January 1, 2013 Author Share Posted January 1, 2013 Does anyone else besides me question what one of Craster's wives says about the Others being Craster's sons? I feel it would be kinda strange for a total change of race to happen.What could they be used for?1. I have a theory with no real proof that far in the north there are Other bodies dating from the Long Night and that Craster's children are sacrificed to bring them back to life. It's the old "Life for life" stuff seen in Drogo's revival, and loads of other books. (Unlikely but possible)2. They could be spies sent south of the wall (I don't believe in this one)3. Having "Halfothers" might be useful for understanding humans better. (Don't really believe in this one either)On this one, GRRM's reference to the Others being like an icy version of the Sidhe (way back in I think Heresy 9) led us to look at the Sidhe and then make the changeling connection, which also applies to the story of Bael the Bard. Its a staple of Faerie/Sidhe folklore, including stories of the Wild Hunt and the Tam Lin story, that the Sidhe require human consorts and servants, to do the things they themselves can't, like walk abroad in the realms of men, often taking them as babies either by exchange (hence changeling) or as a straightforward tithe to Hell, as appears to be the case with Craster's sons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esa1996 Posted January 1, 2013 Share Posted January 1, 2013 The way we figured it a while back is the other way around. That is they ride the winds as a fine mist of ice crystals which can take a corporeal form.Well you are heretics :lol: (I wouldn't call my self one yet since I found this thread today) Sounds strange (But interesting) to me now, but it might be possible. I just think it might be going over GRRM's magic limits, but the amount of magic is increasing all the time and there's already been revival from death so anything's possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted January 1, 2013 Author Share Posted January 1, 2013 Maybe there were once redhead direwolves... you know, touched by fireIf so, I'll bet the bone-white one with the red weirwood eyes, beat the red one when Symeon Star Eyes saw them fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyryan Lannister Posted January 1, 2013 Share Posted January 1, 2013 Old hollow hills make for good hiding places maybe? :agree: Forgot about about Othor and Jafer. Maybe the NW had heard stories that burning the bodies gets rid of the problems?The Varamyr part is a thing against my theory but I find it illogical that wights would rise just because there's Others beyond the Wall. We'll hopefully get an answer for this in TWoW.Then again the dead wildlings that Jon put in the cells haven't woken up, but this might be because of the Wall between them and the Others.For the bolded, notice how it was the experienced raiders who said to burn the bodies, while the higher ranking "pencil pushers" were the ones who said "no, we're gonna study em"... the same type of thing as happened between Ser Waymar and the much more experienced Gared/Will vis-a-vis that wildling camp.For the Thistle stuff, as Little Wing posted above, the cold was there right after the Wights showed up and killed her... we don't know for sure if the others accompanied it, but I'd say this is proof positive that the cold at least exists when a wight is made (whether it's a correlation or causation relative to wighting is still an unknown) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esa1996 Posted January 1, 2013 Share Posted January 1, 2013 On this one, GRRM's reference to the Others being like an icy version of the Sidhe (way back in I think Heresy 9) led us to look at the Sidhe and then make the changeling connection, which also applies to the story of Bael the Bard. Its a staple of Faerie/Sidhe folklore, including stories of the Wild Hunt and the Tam Lin story, that the Sidhe require human consorts and servants, to do the things they themselves can't, like walk abroad in the realms of men, often taking them as babies either by exchange (hence changeling) or as a straightforward tithe to Hell, as appears to be the case with Craster's sons.That sounds actually pretty logical. Best explanation so far I've seen for what they are used for. Did you get to any conclusions on what the Others are unable to do on their own? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyryan Lannister Posted January 1, 2013 Share Posted January 1, 2013 Re: wights: it seems obvious to me that the personal (corporeal?) presence of the Others is not needed to make wights (see Thistle & co). But as other posters mentioned, they apparently have the ability to turn into 'cold mist', or, in any case, this 'cold mist' is associated with them somehow. Note that it's different from simply 'cold'. I'd guess this can do the job just as well as corporeal Others. So if someone is killed but isn't wightified, it's either because the Others happen to be elsewhere and don't notice, or they're not interested, or, possibly, being hindered by fire (not sure whether that works). In the case of the Castle Black wildlings, all three are possible. There also could be people who are resistant to wightification, but that's unlikely to be significant in this case...By the way, I recall someone in the books mentioning that men from some other tower than CB also found some sleeping wights, but had the sense to burn them right away...but I can't find it anywhere now - does anyone remember where it might be? Or did I just imagine reading it?Don't remember where in books, but IIRC it's that Ser Justin found some near the Shadow Tower... either way, yeah it's in there (and it's also in the TV show IIRC) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyryan Lannister Posted January 1, 2013 Share Posted January 1, 2013 Well you are heretics :lol: (I wouldn't call my self one yet since I found this thread today) Sounds strange (But interesting) to me now, but it might be possible. I just think it might be going over GRRM's magic limits, but the amount of magic is increasing all the time and there's already been revival from death so anything's possible.we also have to remember that, above all else, Martin is a science fiction author who just happens to be writing an epic fantasy. And the idea of a sentient mist (gas) upon meeting an intense cold takes on a corporeal form (solid) is rather science-fictiony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyryan Lannister Posted January 1, 2013 Share Posted January 1, 2013 That sounds actually pretty logical. Best explanation so far I've seen for what they are used for. Did you get to any conclusions on what the Others are unable to do on their own?The main thing that they (possibly) can't do on there own is go south of the Wall, and my thoughts on why they would want to is as a means of having eyes and ears in the south so they can monitor men and make sure that they are adhering to the pact(s) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyryan Lannister Posted January 1, 2013 Share Posted January 1, 2013 And with that, here's post # 400 for this thread and I'm off to the bar to watch my Badgers hopefully not lose by too much in the Rose Bowl... see you all in Heresy 36 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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