What in ASOIAF did you feel was CONTRIVED?

[TheRaggedWildling]

What I don't understand is how the North can be so damned cold. Apparently, there is snow during the summer, IIRC. Wouldn't that pretty much shut out most kinds of agriculture, having temperatures below freezing in the middle of the growing season?

Then GRRM goes on to say that the Wildlings grow apples in orchards, some distance above the Wall. Now, I know apples have been grown as far north as Fairbanks, but what biome does this belong to, with snow in the summer, fruit orchards, etc? Personally, I think it is a Taiga, which would explain some, but not all, of the "its a frozen wasteland" shtick expressed in the series

[Arkantos]

The summers last many years, there is no real growing season, unless you count the whole thing as one.

To be honest, the TV series got a lot of shit wrong, beyond the wall doesn't even have any trees...

The three sandsnakes, each one having a "special" power and having one of their father's attributes

Maybe he trained them that way? Meh.

That there weren't more deserters from the Night Watch even before the Others.

There were plenty, the Night's Watch used to be mostly voluntary in the far past too.

[Ladylance]

What I don't understand is how the North can be so damned cold. Apparently, there is snow during the summer, IIRC. Wouldn't that pretty much shut out most kinds of agriculture, having temperatures below freezing in the middle of the growing season?

Then GRRM goes on to say that the Wildlings grow apples in orchards, some distance above the Wall. Now, I know apples have been grown as far north as Fairbanks, but what biome does this belong to, with snow in the summer, fruit orchards, etc? Personally, I think it is a Taiga, which would explain some, but not all, of the "its a frozen wasteland" shtick expressed in the series

I think the simple answer is "magic".

For a more convoluted answer, the north is roughly the size of Europe, which contains climates that range from Scandinavia to Southern Spain. It would contain a lot of different environments and climates. Most of the population centres- White Harbour and Barrowtown, for example are in the south. Even Winterfell is only about half-way from the neck to the wall. More northern areas might generate more of their income from another source, e.g. Lumber- there are several forests, but I don't think a little bit of snow in the summer stops people surviving. I don't think we're supposed to infer the North is an area of permafrost.

The one group of people I struggle to see surviving is the Thenns, but we don't know enough about their culture to draw any real conclusions about them.

[danm_999]

I don't know, branding/tatooing/maiming just seems like a better option to me. Its easy for a deserter to blend in with the population; just remove the cloak and you look like any other peasant. It's harder to cover a tatoo, a maimed hand, or a brand than just removing an article of clothing. Surely, you'd agree with that?

What population are they going to blend in with? The Night's Watch is very isolated.

There's not a huge risk of a Black Brother dissapearing and blending in with the masses, since the nearest populist city is White Harbour. If they're trying to run south, even if they shed their clothes, it's really, really easy for the Umbers or the Hill Clans or the Starks to intercept them. And if they're running north, the Wildlings wouldn't care.

In fact, the only time a black brother does this 'dissapear into the masses' trick is Dareon in Braavos, and in that case any brand or tatoo or maiming wouldn't matter because the Braavosi don't care.

Simply put, it's not difficult to catch a deserter heading south, so maiming or branding every Brother like a slave is superflous and cruel.

Come on now, that's not a very fair thing to say.

Firstly, by reading the books, I do not know where it is stated that the Gift/New Gift can't sustain a large population of people.

Check out this conversation between Jon and Alys Karstark in ADWD;

“Not well.” Alys sighed. “My father took so many of our men south with him that only the women and young boys were left to bring the harvest in. Them, and the men too old or crippled to go off to war. Crops withered in the fields or were pounded into the mud by autumn rains. And now the snows are come. This winter will be hard. Few of the old people will survive it, and many children will perish as well.”

It was a tale that any northmen knew well. “My father’s grandmother was a Flint of the mountains, on his mother’s side,” Jon told her. “The First Flints, they call themselves. They say the other Flints are the blood of younger sons, who had to leave the mountains to find food and land and wives. It has always been a harsh life up there. When the snows fall and food grows scarce, their young must travel to the winter town or take service at one castle or the other. The old men gather up what strength remains in them and announce that they are going hunting. Some are found come spring. More are never seen again.”

“It is much the same at Karhold.”

This tells us that in the North, there's a tradition in places as southern as Karhold (several hundred leagues south of the Gift) of children, the eldeerly, and younger sons dying or leaving because the food stores are inadequate. Jon remarks "It was a tale any northmen knew well".

We can infer that the North can't sustain that many people, sure, but we can also infer population numbers of other holdings. Karhold, and Last Hearth are close to the Wall, and can sustain a population large enough to support armies of a few thousand each.

They can't really, as the above quote demonstrates. The North struggles to feed itself in a winter.

Unless they took literally every peasant they could to war with Robb Stark (they didn't since more go to war with Roose Bolton),

Again, check out Alys' quote; they took all the able bodied men and the harvest was lost.

This is the problem with your plan. Allowing the Night's Watch to have a family means children, and infants, and women, and the sick and the elderly. These people all need to be fed, but these people cannot all do the work of an able bodied man. Useless mouths will abound.

[Lord Addam]

Gonna point something out here

in reality she would get killed on the spot. But my friend it is indeed not reality so that renders your point moot

A noble woman from a strict social class not doing what they are expected to do Arya does it?

Of course it will have holes GRRM has created hundreds of characters with backgrounds I think we can let a few holes slide... Unless of course you would care to write an Epic fantasy series?

GRRM didn't create that character, the two dudes from L.A. did. In the books Robb married a normal girl. The point was that it's fine to make some changes if they're done intelligently and in line with the literature, but they slipped up there by "going Hollywood".

[The Mountain That Posts]

GRRM didn't create that character, the two dudes from L.A. did. In the books Robb married a normal girl. The point was that it's fine to make some changes if they're done intelligently and in line with the literature, but they slipped up there by "going Hollywood".

She wasn't a normal girl, she was a noblewoman. Albeit of a family that isn't as powerful as Robb probably wishes they were(heh) but still a noble family regardless.

[Lord Addam]

She wasn't a normal girl, she was a noblewoman. Albeit of a family that isn't as powerful as Robb probably wishes they were(heh) but still a noble family regardless.

I meant a normal 'person' or character. Talisa being ridiculous and contrived.