What in ASOIAF did you feel was CONTRIVED?

[The Monkey]

Several things about the Tyrells and the Reach has been bothering me.

For some reason, GRRM made them by far the most powerful family in Westeros, being able to field 80'000 men overnight. This means they far outnumbered any other family, and by extension implies that whichever side they join in a war will win. It almost seems like GRRM regrets making them so strong, and make them being attacked from (potentially) three sides: Dorne, Aegon and the Ironborn, as the last resort to weaken their power before the final war and remove their status as deus ex machina in Westorisi warfare.

What bothers me is that there seems to be complete unity among the Reach's lords, even though Mace Tyrell is portrayed as extremely weak and incompetent. Did none of the lords question joining Renly, only to suddenly switch allegiance to the Lannisters? Seems likely that at least a few lords would've at least withdrawn their men at some point, but no, they blindly followed Mace in all situations. How can the northern lords be so disloyal to their king (who was widely admired and respected), while the Reach lords constantly display complete devotion to a liege lord their neither admire or respect?

[Arkantos]

A lot of the lords who were with Renly switched straight over to Stannis after his death, they didn't blindly follow Mace at all.

[The Mountain That Posts]

To be fair, a lot of Northern lords expressed their displeasure with Robb and/or Eddard at one point or another. Didn't stop them from following them and taking orders.

I'm sure it's the same thing with the Reach lords.

[The Monkey]

A lot of the lords who were with Renly switched straight over to Stannis after his death, they didn't blindly follow Mace at all.

The Stormland lords, not those from the Reach (except the Florents, but they were tied to Stannis through marriage).

[Larry of the Lawn]

Several things about the Tyrells and the Reach has been bothering me.

For some reason, GRRM made them by far the most powerful family in Westeros, being able to field 80'000 men overnight. This means they far outnumbered any other family, and by extension implies that whichever side they join in a war will win. It almost seems like GRRM regrets making them so strong, and make them being attacked from (potentially) three sides: Dorne, Aegon and the Ironborn, as the last resort to weaken their power before the final war and remove their status as deus ex machina in Westorisi warfare.

What bothers me is that there seems to be complete unity among the Reach's lords, even though Mace Tyrell is portrayed as extremely weak and incompetent. Did none of the lords question joining Renly, only to suddenly switch allegiance to the Lannisters? Seems likely that at least a few lords would've at least withdrawn their men at some point, but no, they blindly followed Mace in all situations. How can the northern lords be so disloyal to their king (who was widely admired and respected), while the Reach lords constantly display complete devotion to a liege lord their neither admire or respect?

I think Tarly especially is of questionable loyalty. His military bearing seems to suggest he'd be unlikely to follow Tyrell if a better opportunity presented itself, like say, Aegon.

[Tookie Clothespin]

Most contrived to me is Darkstar.

Yawn........

:o but Dorkstar is sooo kewl! :P

it seemed like he functioned more as a comic relief to the whole danger-at-every turn plot Arianne cooked up.

The Sand Snakes, as a lot of people have mentioned. I'm hoping he fleshes them out at some point but for now they're like Charlie's Angels: Westeros to me.

the thing that really gets to me, is that some of their lines are just so... :ack: that they come off as a caricature of what they are. like Tyene:

“And what of me?” asked Tyene.

“Your mother was a septa. Oberyn once told me that she read to you in the cradle from the Seven-Pointed Star. I want you in King’s Landing too, but on the other hill. The Swords and the Stars have been re-formed, and this new High Septon is not the puppet that the others were. Try and get close to him.”

“Why not? White suits my coloring. I look so … pure."

:rolleyes: i really want to like them because lady nym is hot and the characters have so much potential for badassery. but if i keep reading one more of these one-liners in the upcoming book, i will shave all my hairs so i won't feel anymore goosebumps from all the cheese. it would be nice to get a POV from Nym or Obara. or Sarella.

[otherbeef]

Several things about the Tyrells and the Reach has been bothering me.

For some reason, GRRM made them by far the most powerful family in Westeros, being able to field 80'000 men overnight. This means they far outnumbered any other family, and by extension implies that whichever side they join in a war will win. It almost seems like GRRM regrets making them so strong, and make them being attacked from (potentially) three sides: Dorne, Aegon and the Ironborn, as the last resort to weaken their power before the final war and remove their status as deus ex machina in Westorisi warfare.

What bothers me is that there seems to be complete unity among the Reach's lords, even though Mace Tyrell is portrayed as extremely weak and incompetent. Did none of the lords question joining Renly, only to suddenly switch allegiance to the Lannisters? Seems likely that at least a few lords would've at least withdrawn their men at some point, but no, they blindly followed Mace in all situations. How can the northern lords be so disloyal to their king (who was widely admired and respected), while the Reach lords constantly display complete devotion to a liege lord their neither admire or respect?

there has been nothing to gain thus far for the Lords of the Reach by betraying the Tyrells. Besides, when you take on a power like the Tyrells, you better make sure you come out victorious, or risk extinction.

[Larry of the Lawn]

Wex throwing a dagger at map and it hitting Skagos. How many times did they practice that?

[straits]

Wex throwing a dagger at map and it hitting Skagos. How many times did they practice that?

Maybe the map was massive?

You know what I find contrived? THE FIRE LIZARDS

[Larry of the Lawn]

Large maps are contrived.

[Myrish Swamp Thing]

I also don't think Jon's election was that contrived. The guy was (sort of) a Stark, had been hand-picked as Mormont's steward — basically Mormont saying, "This kid is going to be LC someday" — Denys Mallister and Cotter Pyke were in a gridlock that wasn't going anywhere, a lot of the senior brothers like Benjen and Donal were missing and/or dead, Jon had literally just helped hold the fucking Wall against a wildling wave, and a lot of people didn't want to vote for the southern jackass who'd just shown up. I'm sorry, what's forced about Jon's election when you take all of that into consideration? I don't find it any more contrived that a teenager conquering Dorne or an eight-year-old boy holding court in Winterfell. Kids do some crazy stuff at young ages in this series. Singling out Jon's election seems deliberately persnickety to me.

Funnily enough, I think Jon's election should have been more cliched. If a faction had pointed all of this out and said "well, he's the best we've got right now", it would have been cool. The problem with him emerging as the consensus candidate is that, as has been pointed out many times, such candidates tend to be old guys, so that everyone can prepare to go for it again in the future.

[Old-Growth]

Most contrived to me is Darkstar.

Yawn........

He is Melisandre's foil :)

[Arkantos]

Wex throwing a dagger at map and it hitting Skagos. How many times did they practice that?

Ironborn are well practiced with throwing weapons...

[camelcant]

I felt the battle of Blackwater was the most contrived. There was chapters of doom and gloom on the part of the Lannisters about losing KL but in the course of three paragraphs, the ghost of Renly and the armies of Highgarden appear to save the day.

I re-read that section three times before I was quite clear what had happened. I felt it was a contrived swerve that was poorly detailed and barely telegraphed. I felt annoyed and cheated at the reversal of fate that happened at the perfect time and with little notice to save the plot.

[The Mountain That Posts]

I felt the battle of Blackwater was the most contrived. There was chapters of doom and gloom on the part of the Lannisters about losing KL but in the course of three paragraphs, the ghost of Renly and the armies of Highgarden appear to save the day.

I re-read that section three times before I was quite clear what had happened. I felt it was a contrived swerve that was poorly detailed and barely telegraphed. I felt annoyed and cheated at the reversal of fate that happened at the perfect time and with little notice to save the plot.

Honestly, and i've always thought this, but what would have made the first two books better would've been Loras Tyrell as a POV. That way we'd get much more insight into Renly-and-Tyrell scheming in the first book, learn about how they united all the Stormlands and the Reach(aside from the Arbor) and overall gotten us much closer and more attached to Renly. And given us more insight into the Tyrell family, as well as whether or not Loras is actually supposed to be a good guy or not. (I swear, GRRM can't make up his mind with Loras) And it also would've made it more obvious that the Tyrells were desperate with Renly dead, but they wouldn't have had to spoil that the Tyrells would unite with House Lannister - just made it less of a ZOMG PLOTTWIST.

Didn't Tyrion also see a bunch of riders riding into the battle? It was like one sentence. So yeah, I agree, the ending of the Blackwater was very contrived. And I also thought it was very unnecessary that it took until AFTER Joffrey's death in ASoS in a Jaime chapter before we learned about who was pretending to be Renly(Garlan), seemed like that wasn't info that needed to be delayed IMO.

[otherbeef]

I felt the battle of Blackwater was the most contrived. There was chapters of doom and gloom on the part of the Lannisters about losing KL but in the course of three paragraphs, the ghost of Renly and the armies of Highgarden appear to save the day.

I re-read that section three times before I was quite clear what had happened. I felt it was a contrived swerve that was poorly detailed and barely telegraphed. I felt annoyed and cheated at the reversal of fate that happened at the perfect time and with little notice to save the plot.

I'm not wholly disagreeing, as the actual text spent on the Tyrells part in the BW was short compared to the whole battle, but Tyrion had sent LF to ally with the Tyrells and marry Margaery to Joffrey LONG before the Battle of the BW so that scenario wasn't exactly out of the blue.

[Castellan]

Several things about the Tyrells and the Reach has been bothering me.

For some reason, GRRM made them by far the most powerful family in Westeros, being able to field 80'000 men overnight. This means they far outnumbered any other family, and by extension implies that whichever side they join in a war will win. It almost seems like GRRM regrets making them so strong, and make them being attacked from (potentially) three sides: Dorne, Aegon and the Ironborn, as the last resort to weaken their power before the final war and remove their status as deus ex machina in Westorisi warfare.

What bothers me is that there seems to be complete unity among the Reach's lords, even though Mace Tyrell is portrayed as extremely weak and incompetent. Did none of the lords question joining Renly, only to suddenly switch allegiance to the Lannisters? Seems likely that at least a few lords would've at least withdrawn their men at some point, but no, they blindly followed Mace in all situations. How can the northern lords be so disloyal to their king (who was widely admired and respected), while the Reach lords constantly display complete devotion to a liege lord their neither admire or respect?

I think the Reach people are worldly, rich sophisticated southerners and they allied themselves with the candidate who had those qualities, at the price of marriage with Margery, thinking it would repay them. On the Tower of the Hand site there's a summary of the state of war - they point out that the Reach lands lack natural defences and are rich in agriculture, it supports a lot of people and can supply an army, but the Lannisters have the advantage of extreme wealth from gold and a small area with natural defences. The North is poorer and sparsely populated and so after initial excitement people began seeing the writing on the wall (!) and switching sides and thinking their King was just a foolish boy.

[GallowsKnight]

What bothers me is that there seems to be complete unity among the Reach's lords, even though Mace Tyrell is portrayed as extremely weak and incompetent. Did none of the lords question joining Renly, only to suddenly switch allegiance to the Lannisters? Seems likely that at least a few lords would've at least withdrawn their men at some point, but no, they blindly followed Mace in all situations. How can the northern lords be so disloyal to their king (who was widely admired and respected), while the Reach lords constantly display complete devotion to a liege lord their neither admire or respect?

The Tyrells marry into their bannermen a lot. They've connections to all their big supporters (Hightower, Tarly, Redwyne). Olenna is a political mastermind and the boys, Willas, Garlan and Loras command a lot of respect.

But some Reachmen did change sides to Stannis, most notably the Florents because the marriage connection to Stannis, but also both the Red and Green Apple Fossoways, then lesser noble houses like Varner, Willum and Mullendore.

[Riptide]

On Mag the Frog: what on earth is wrong with that thread? I honestly have no idea, despite everyone but me seeming to agree on it. The reason we didn't hear about it before aFfC was that until that book we had no Cersei POV.

[The Monkey]

The Tyrells marry into their bannermen a lot. They've connections to all their big supporters (Hightower, Tarly, Redwyne). Olenna is a political mastermind and the boys, Willas, Garlan and Loras command a lot of respect.

But some Reachmen did change sides to Stannis, most notably the Florents because the marriage connection to Stannis, but also both the Red and Green Apple Fossoways, then lesser noble houses like Varner, Willum and Mullendore.

You got a point I suppose, and Tarly is at a very uncertain position right now in terms of loyalty, especially since he's the one who got Margaery.

I just remembered, I would it extremely unlikely that the northmen would leave such a small military presence in Winterfell after the Ironborn attacked Torren's square. Theon took the castle with 20 men, without casualties, which suggests the defenders wouldn't have number more than five. Five soldiers to defend THE CAPITAL OF THE FUCKING KINGDOM, at a time when they knew enemy soldiers were in the north.