What in ASOIAF did you feel was CONTRIVED?

[Summer is Ending]

Oh...I just remember hair growth. Hair grows ridiculously fast in the series or else doesn't seem to grow at all. There were several wtf moments when it came to hair. It was an effort to shrug it off as something to just accept and not question.

Ha. yeah. Still some funny moments though.

The Hound had hacked handfuls of her hair off only two days past. He was an even worse barber than Yoren, and he’d left her half bald on one side.

Always good for a laugh for me anyways.

[MCBC]

The Martells loyalty to the Targaryen's - First Rhaegar decides to give Lyanna Stark the crown of beauty, in public for everyone to see. Including Elia Martell, his wife which is a huge slap in the face. Rhaegar decides to run away/kidnap the same woman & vanish for a year. By the way he was in Dorne.... Did they know?

Aerys is crazy & for some reason is paranoid about the Martells. He orders Elia & her children to stay which ends in disaster because they get brutally murdered. Yet after the war, the Martells are already making secret marriage pacts with Viserys & Dany?

They don't have any reservations about making another marriage pact with the same family? Or place any of the blame on the Targs for what happened?

[Samsaptakas]

A​egon and his campaign - there is a certain girl who already spend 5000+ pages readying for her way to Westeros, constantly facing one obstacle after another. And then there is this guy, who appears out of nowhere, decides to attack the Westeros in one chapter and the next he is already collecting his first victories. I mean, who needs Quaith, all the HOTU prophecies and the Dothraki screamers when all it takes to get back is hire a bunch of selswords companies with promisses of plunder, board the ships and cross the ocean with no trouble at all. Even if it most likely means Aegon is marked for death it still feels kind of cheap.

Aegon didn't come out of nowhere, Varys had been plotting for years. His decision to attack the westros was a smart move. Don't blame him, it is not his fault that other houses blew their load early.

[The Great Walrus]

Samwell Tarly, to be honest. The fact that he survives while so many other, tougher, and more experienced men fall around him threatens to destroy my suspenion of disbelief sometimes. Don't get me wrong, i like sam.

[Kittykatknits]

The Martells loyalty to the Targaryen's - First Rhaegar decides to give Lyanna Stark the crown of beauty, in public for everyone to see. Including Elia Martell, his wife which is a huge slap in the face. Rhaegar decides to run away/kidnap the same woman & vanish for a year. By the way he was in Dorne.... Did they know?

Aerys is crazy & for some reason is paranoid about the Martells. He orders Elia & her children to stay which ends in disaster because they get brutally murdered. Yet after the war, the Martells are already making secret marriage pacts with Viserys & Dany?

They don't have any reservations about making another marriage pact with the same family? Or place any of the blame on the Targs for what happened?

Yeah, I've never really understood this one too. Rhaegar shames Elia and the mad king keeps her and her kids as hostages.

Solution: Put another one on the throne.

[Larry of the Lawn]

Oh, another one: Penny befriending Tyrion. He's a self-confessed murderer, she heard him confess his desire to "rape and kill" his sister, she thinks he's a kingslayer, and as far as she's aware he's partly to blame for the deaths of her brother and friend.

Tywin had, at this point, beaten all the other claimants for the throne. Co-operating with him was the best chance the NW had of surviving.

He didn't need to prove anything - he should have removed Littlefinger as soon as possible, and the fact that he didn't makes absolutely no sense. It clearly wasn't about his "money skills" either, as Tyrion still didn't say anything even when he was sent to the Vale.

The Night's Watch would have been exterminated by the Wildlings within a week if Stannis hadn't shown up.

So they're all of a sudden supposed to jump at the Tywin's quill and ink? Stannis was the only one that sent them aid. Who do you listen to- the guy you don't know from KL that Tywin Lannister supports? This is the same guy who Stannis, who just saved your ass, tells you would be a worse commander than the cook.

Sure, Jon and company did their best to hold the Wall, but Mance could have broken through that gate in a day or two. Once that wildling horde starts getting through the tunnel, their done. And how long could 40 people really hold it? A few days?

Combine that with the fact that the watch seems to resent any attempts at external control, and it doesn't seem so contrived.

I guess my whole issue with the 'contrived' thing, when we're talking about plot, is that these things that seem to get flak for being contrived are what makes a story memorable for me. No one wants to read about how Jon Snow was elected Lord Commander after 40 years of doing an above-average job of walking the Wall, with the approval of the defacto dictator of Westeros, with just one vote over the 2/3 required vote.

Are some of the characters more 'contrived' than others? Yes. Half of Essos. But seven hells it's a series of fantasy novels-- there is going to be inherently some made up shit going on.

The author doesn't have to be an expert on all the shit he's writing about. He's a fiction writer. Not an ex-spy, or a former general, or an economist, or a navigator, or a physicist. Some of the stuff is going to be a reach. It's a work of fiction.

[Tourniquet]

Daarios effect on Dany, seriously the guy is more of a Queen then RU Paul.

I agree with this. This is my least favorite relationship in the book. I would imagine Dany being more attracted to Grey Worm (with bait and tackle removed) than Daario.

[Summer is Ending]

The Night's Watch would have been exterminated by the Wildlings within a week if Stannis hadn't shown up.

So they're all of a sudden supposed to jump at the Tywin's quill and ink? Stannis was the only one that sent them aid. Who do you listen to- the guy you don't know from KL that Tywin Lannister supports? This is the same guy who Stannis, who just saved your ass, tells you would be a worse commander than the cook.

Sure, Jon and company did their best to hold the Wall, but Mance could have broken through that gate in a day or two. Once that wildling horde starts getting through the tunnel, their done. And how long could 40 people really hold it? A few days?

Combine that with the fact that the watch seems to resent any attempts at external control, and it doesn't seem so contrived.

I guess my whole issue with the 'contrived' thing, when we're talking about plot, is that these things that seem to get flak for being contrived are what makes a story memorable for me. No one wants to read about how Jon Snow was elected Lord Commander after 40 years of doing an above-average job of walking the Wall, with the approval of the defacto dictator of Westeros, with just one vote over the 2/3 required vote.

Are some of the characters more 'contrived' than others? Yes. Half of Essos. But seven hells it's a series of fantasy novels-- there is going to be inherently some made up shit going on.

The author doesn't have to be an expert on all the shit he's writing about. He's a fiction writer. Not an ex-spy, or a former general, or an economist, or a navigator, or a physicist. Some of the stuff is going to be a reach. It's a work of fiction.

It actually works against Slynt being a Lannister lackey. Like Tywin ever did jackshit for the Watch in the first place to make the crows worry about his goodwill.

Slynt . . . well, his men like him, I’ll grant you, and it would almost be worth it to stick him down the royal craw and see if Stannis gagged, but no. There’s too much of King’s Landing in that one. A toad grows wings and thinks he’s a bloody dragon.”

...

And this so-called Lord of Harrenhal is a butcher’s whelp unjumped by the Lannisters. Small wonder he is venal and corrupt.”

Ha, toad, dragon. Poor Quentyn.

[otherbeef]

The Martells loyalty to the Targaryen's - First Rhaegar decides to give Lyanna Stark the crown of beauty, in public for everyone to see. Including Elia Martell, his wife which is a huge slap in the face. Rhaegar decides to run away/kidnap the same woman & vanish for a year. By the way he was in Dorne.... Did they know?

Aerys is crazy & for some reason is paranoid about the Martells. He orders Elia & her children to stay which ends in disaster because they get brutally murdered. Yet after the war, the Martells are already making secret marriage pacts with Viserys & Dany?

They don't have any reservations about making another marriage pact with the same family? Or place any of the blame on the Targs for what happened?

Yeah, I've never really understood this one too. Rhaegar shames Elia and the mad king keeps her and her kids as hostages.

Solution: Put another one on the throne.

I suppose, but we really have no idea what Elia Martell thought about the whole Rhaegar/Lyanna business, or much at all about Rhaegar and Lyanna at all. For all we know Elia approved (she couldn't give him another son for instance).

[Arkantos]

I suppose, but we really have no idea what Elia Martell thought about the whole Rhaegar/Lyanna business, or much at all about Rhaegar and Lyanna at all. For all we know Elia approved (she couldn't give him another son for instance).

There's also that vision Dany had in the house of the undying, Rhaegar was talking about the need for a third child with Elia.

[Kittykatknits]

I suppose, but we really have no idea what Elia Martell thought about the whole Rhaegar/Lyanna business, or much at all about Rhaegar and Lyanna at all. For all we know Elia approved (she couldn't give him another son for instance).

But we have some hints on what Doran thought, the app confirmed that he was very upset that Rhaegar proclaimed Lyanna the queen of love and beauty at Harrenhal. He was pretty upset at the treatment of Elia.

[Stew the Iron Mortis]

OK so I've seen that a lot of people are saying that the romance between Jon Snow and Ygritte was really contrived but I thought it was so much fun to read about. I also really liked how Jon finally had somebody who really loved him yet he couldn't love her really.

I enjoyed it.

Yet so many say it was bad :(

Concerning stuff I thought was contrived:

Sand Snakes: Lame, uninspired, flat characters IMHO.

Can't really think of anything else.

Thoughts?

I also enjoyed Jon and Ygritte was gutted after she died character had more to her I thought

Only good thing to come out of Dorne was the wine and Red Viper (another 1 that was gone too soon IMO)

[Horza]

But we have some hints on what Doran thought, the app confirmed that he was very upset that Rhaegar proclaimed Lyanna the queen of love and beauty at Harrenhal. He was pretty upset at the treatment of Elia.

Probably more upset with the Lannisters for killing her and her kids though.

It is a wierd one, though, as while that's a reason to hate Lannister it's really a great reason to risk your House's fortunes on a Targaryen restoration.

[otherbeef]

But we have some hints on what Doran thought, the app confirmed that he was very upset that Rhaegar proclaimed Lyanna the queen of love and beauty at Harrenhal. He was pretty upset at the treatment of Elia.

The App also says Doran eventually basically forgives and forgets because their houses are tied together. Besides, the Martells hate the Lannisters and have no reason to like the Baratheons/Starks/Arryns. Why wouldn't they want to get revenge on these Houses by aiding a Targ return, a House that they have had a close relationship even before Rhaegar and Lyanna? Plus the whole being able to have a Martell king or queen (well now that Quentyn is dead just queen)

[The Meeraculous Third Reed]

This plot device is the reason why Daenerys stays in Mereen. She had every intention before then of fighting her way with her freedmen to the sea. Had she been anywhere else in the world she would not have changed her course.

That and the small matter of her attempts to crush the slave trade.

It prevents Aegon from linking up with Daenerys thus prefiguring a possible Dance with Dragons civil war.

I always felt that was JonCon's impatience.

Tyrions POV chapters totally different, Vics totally different. No battle of Fire. Just a clean sail from Volantis to Westeros. Dany gets to Westeros with dragons before Others. Dany not driven to despair and possibly taking a darker path. Dany not left isolated where she'll be infuenced by the likes of Moqorro, Marwyn and Tyrion.

You mean that same clean sail which saw Tyrion captured by slavers and Victarion lose much of his (kitted out and ready for war) fleet?

I completely forgot about this, and you're 100% right. Cersei said she would pay them back eventually without borrowing any more money. But because she won't make payments straight away they turn to Stannis, who requires a loan and a longer period of time over which to pay back the loan? And on top of that they're willing to aid the Night's Watch?

Ridiculous.

Not really ridiculous if you think about it.

Cersei says she'll begin paying them back in due course, but anyone with half a brain can see that Cersei is a megalomaniac whose attitude towards the Iron Bank reeks of one who sees herself as almost untouchable. Her legacy as a Lannister also grants her the ability to milk money from the vast gold reserves in the Westerlands. She's not going to be paying anytime soon.

So, the Iron Bank has two options. They can go down the whole "Iron Bank will have its due" course, which will probably involve a long, drawn out process of using the Faceless Men to eventually force the Crown to start repayments, or they can make a loan to Stannis, who I think we can safely say would honour the repayment of the loan. Whilst admittedly it's unlikely that he will win the current war, I doubt the Bank has overstretched in its payments to him. They're simply using him as a way to obtain their repayments without resorting to direct violence.

The Night's Watch loan seemed perfectly feasible to me.

[The Marquis de Leech]

The Night's Watch loan seemed perfectly feasible to me.

Depends. What on earth was Jon using as collateral on the loan?

[Winter's Knight]

That and the small matter of her attempts to crush the slave trade.

I always felt that was JonCon's impatience.

You mean that same clean sail which saw Tyrion captured by slavers and Victarion lose much of his (kitted out and ready for war) fleet?

Not really ridiculous if you think about it.

Cersei says she'll begin paying them back in due course, but anyone with half a brain can see that Cersei is a megalomaniac whose attitude towards the Iron Bank reeks of one who sees herself as almost untouchable. Her legacy as a Lannister also grants her the ability to milk money from the vast gold reserves in the Westerlands. She's not going to be paying anytime soon.

So, the Iron Bank has two options. They can go down the whole "Iron Bank will have its due" course, which will probably involve a long, drawn out process of using the Faceless Men to eventually force the Crown to start repayments, or they can make a loan to Stannis, who I think we can safely say would honour the repayment of the loan. Whilst admittedly it's unlikely that he will win the current war, I doubt the Bank has overstretched in its payments to him. They're simply using him as a way to obtain their repayments without resorting to direct violence.

The Night's Watch loan seemed perfectly feasible to me.

And yet, it doesn't make sense to me-if the throne doesn't have the money now, where is the guarantee that it wil have the money when Stannis takes the throne? The realm will have suffered some more losses since the war would have been dragged on longer than necessary, it would be the middle of winter-Stannis would have to starve the realm to pay the IB.

Depends. What on earth was Jon using as collateral on the loan?

Treasure from the Wildings.

[The Marquis de Leech]

Treasure from the Wildings.

The Wildings aren't that wealthy.

[Winter's Knight]

The Wildings aren't that wealthy.

I know, but that is what the text says: ancient heirlooms, furs and the like.

[The Meeraculous Third Reed]

Depends. What on earth was Jon using as collateral on the loan?

In addition to the wildling "treasure", his word and information as to where to find Stannis.

And yet, it doesn't make sense to me-if the throne doesn't have the money now, where is the guarantee that it wil have the money when Stannis takes the throne? The realm will have suffered some more losses since the war would have been dragged on longer than necessary, it would be the middle of winter-Stannis would have to starve the realm to pay the IB

An efficiently run realm can theoretically generate money over time (the Bank isn't going anywhere).