What in ASOIAF did you feel was CONTRIVED?

[Winter's Knight]

No one mentions Mellara besides Cersei so who is to say that she is real at all?

I can live with this.

[danm_999]

Where was it said that the Old Gift and the New Gift weren't fertile enough to support a sizable population? Wasn't that the entire point: to provide an area where peasants can live, so they can produce food and other goods for the Watch?

The point of the Gift was not to provide an area where peasants can live, the point of the Gift was to feed the Watch. Remember; it's not very arable land.

According to the wiki, both Gifts combined equal about 50 leagues south of the wall. That is a line 150 miles deep, stretching across a continent. That could be (and most likely, is) a very sizable chunk of land available for farming, herding, fishing, lumbermills, quarries, etc.

The land's size is no indication of how arable it is. The North is as big as the other six kingdoms of Westeros combined, but it has one of the smallest populations in comparison, since the land is of poor quality.

The Gift resides on the poorest of the poor of that land, given it's the northernmost. There are no major rivers, no major lakes, several large forests, and almost a good quarter of the land in the Gift is mountains west of the Kingsroad. On top of that, it snows there even during the summer.

Put bluntly; you can't feed that many people on the Gift. That's why nobody lives there.

More importantly, the families would serve to alleviate stress on the Watch, by "taking up some of the slack" in terms of resource-providers, the Stewards.

Children cannot act as stewards and builders. Babies and infants cannot act as stewards. The old and infirm cannot act as stewards. You're acting like every mouth that would be brought to the Wall would be able to contribute. They wouldn't. The Watch is a military organization, it cannot afford to be feeding all these useless mouths.

I just solved, like, 70% of the Night's Watch's problems right there.

Christ, the hubris.

[danm_999]

No one mentions Mellara besides Cersei so who is to say that she is real at all?

The AFFC appendix lists Ser Tybolt Heatherspoon, a landed knight and his deceased daughter Melara.

[Scipio Africanus]

The land's size is no indication of how arable it is. The North is as big as the other six kingdoms of Westeros combined, but it has one of the smallest populations in comparison, since the land is of poor quality.

Source? For I don't think so. In fact I think that apart from the Reach and the Riverlands, it might have a bigger population then say the Vale.

It definitely has a bigger population then Dorne or the Storm Lands, and the Iron Isles as well.

[danm_999]

Source? For I don't think so. In fact I think that apart from the Reach and the Riverlands, it might have a bigger population then say the Vale.

It definitely has a bigger population then Dorne or the Storm Lands, and the Iron Isles as well.

I think it's more populated than Dorne (based on Doran's remarks), and the Iron Islands (based on Balon's remarks), but not the Westerlands, the Riverlands, the Crownlands, the Reach, or the Vale (which is described by Jon in ADWD as super fertile). I'm not sure about the Stormlands, since they're not really described in great detail. There's no canon on this, but based on past forum topics and the wikis, the North is estimated to be on the lower end of the scale.

My point was basically that the North is about the same size as the South, but it's got a much smaller population than a comparable area in the South. So to look at the Gift and think "that's a lot of land, must be able to support lots of people" is errorneous, since the land in question is of low quality.

[Lord Addam]

The part where the hot chick field medic was skulking around the battlefield by herself generally not getting raped only to capture the heart of the brave handsome king with her gender role destroying independent charm.

Yeah, that was beyond ridiculous! Everything about Talisa is pretty much silly. First of all how she looks, Volantene's look Valyrian, not like her. And why would a noblewoman from a VERY strict class society be binding wounds there? Her origin story is awful and full of holes as well. But the most annoying thing is that they went so Hollywood on her. They made her modern. You see these films where a young peasant girl is mouthing off at the king and getting away with it, in reality she would get killed on the spot.

[Scipio Africanus]

I think it's more populated than Dorne (based on Doran's remarks), and the Iron Islands (based on Balon's remarks), but not the Westerlands, the Riverlands, the Crownlands, the Reach, or the Vale (which is described by Jon in ADWD as super fertile). I'm not sure about the Stormlands, since they're not really described in great detail. There's no canon on this, but based on past forum topics and the wikis, the North is estimated to be on the lower end of the scale.

My point was basically that the North is about the same size as the South, but it's got a much smaller population than a comparable area in the South. So to look at the Gift and think "that's a lot of land, must be able to support lots of people" is errorneous, since the land in question is of low quality.

Westlands and Crownlands are question marks to me, but I wouldn't be surprised if the North had a bigger population then the latter as well.

Martin said in the interview that the Stormlands were pretty rough and underdeveloped, and implied there wasn't much there. I'm pretty sure the North is bigger then the Stormlands including population.

The North looks empty, because its so big, but that says nothing of the population numbers nor the land.

In fact, Jojen Reed commented that the lands in the Gift (around Queenscrown) were "good". In other words there's no reason to believe why the Gift wouldn't be able to sustain viable farming communities especially considering it had done so in the past (the Gift wasn't just worked on by the Rangers in the hayday - villages were settled there as well, they just moved away as the NW got smaller and Wildling raiding increased).

I won't argue numbers with you though. But I do suspect the Gift can now viably house thousends of Wildlings if they get settled there...

ps as for the Vale, only the Vale of Arryn is land suitable for agriculture, and there are a few settlements along the coast, but otherwise its rugged terrain (like where the mountain clans live). The Vale is no Riverlands.

[danm_999]

The North looks empty, because its so big, but that says nothing of the population numbers nor the land.

The North is as big as the South, but not as powerful or populous, which immediately tells you a lot about the population numbers and the land quality.

In fact, Jojen Reed commented that the lands in the Gift (around Queenscrown) were "good".

Yes, the land around Queenscrown. Not the Gift as a whole.

In other words there's no reason to believe why the Gift wouldn't be able to sustain viable farming communities especially considering it had done so in the past (the Gift wasn't just worked on by the Rangers in the hayday - villages were settled there as well, they just moved away as the NW got smaller and Wildling raiding increased).

At it's height, the Gift supported a Night's Watch of 10,000 men (it's apex during Aegon's invasion). The RaggedWildling is suggesting it should be able to support 50,000+ no sweat, which just seems ridiculous.

[PuzzleTime]

That Sam isn't sheading noticable weight.

[Frey family reunion]

Joffrey being the one who sent the assassin after Bran, and the way Tyrion and Jaime "solved" this mystery. First while Joffrey is cruel and impetuous, I don't see him caring enough concoct a plot to "put Bran out of his misery" just to please his old man.

Secondly, the mystery is solved because Joffrey said he was no stranger to Valyrian blades, and then gave Tyrion a weird look when he mentioned a valyrian dagger? Jaime realizing that Joffrey would have overheard Robert saying someone should put Bran out of his misery.

And finally, it just so happens that the dagger used was one of Littlefingers? Who for no apparent benefit for himself, then lies and said he lost it to Tyrion?

The whole thing smacks of a mystery that Martin concocted and then decided he had too many other mysteries he needed to resolve so he ended it in a haphazard way. Hopefully I'm wrong and it turns out that there is more to this than has been revealed.

[Ingelheim]

Agr-wise. And you hear me roar about Dany/Drogo, SanSan and LF/Sansa. Especially Dany/Drogo.

I also dislike how predatory Ygritte comes across as-she simply wouldn't take no for an answer.

I'd disagree-he is sixteen in Dance, which is two years after GoT. Very little time passes between ACoK and AGoT.

Jon is 17 in ADWD. He was born in 283, and ASOS story happens in the year 299. Joffrey's death was on the first day of the new year, 300.

[K26dp]

Nothing. It's a work of fantasy, not historical fiction.

[Mikeygigs]

The watch was originally an order of mostly willing members. The black isn't an attempt to make them "badass". It's meant to foster brotherhood. They are giving up their family and prior allegiances, which means giving up sigils and house colors and such. The Watch becomes their family, and family helps clothe it's members. There's also the very obvious that black is pretty much the easiest dye to make from raw resources that would be readily available in that area. Sure, tattooing or maiming is an option, but not a very good one. As you stated, it's a miserable area and the possibility for infection increases. There's also the fact that it can be covered, they are not slaves, and any crimes they committed before are wiped clean. No better way to say "You're signing up for life in prison and slave labor" than to tattoo or maim.

As for black being "cool" or "badass", I don't really get that impression in the series.

I don't know, branding/tatooing/maiming just seems like a better option to me. Its easy for a deserter to blend in with the population; just remove the cloak and you look like any other peasant. It's harder to cover a tatoo, a maimed hand, or a brand than just removing an article of clothing. Surely, you'd agree with that?

As far as the attempt to make the watch seem cool by dressing them in black...I don't know, I always felt black was the stereotypical "cool" color, and just really lame. The black as a coolness thing is a small problem, though.

Just my opinion here.

Like danm says, how do they feed these families? And where do they live? What do they do with descendants? At the time of Aegon I, the watch had 10,000 men. If those 10,000 men all had families settled on the gift and their children had children and so on and so forth, where do they live? The Gift area isn't bountiful enough to support a heavy population density. What happens to allegiance when those children marry in families in warring regions? The Night's Watch having their own cities of families is basically creating a new kingdom. So what do they do when they start getting attacked?

I don't think you thought this through very well.

Come on now, that's not a very fair thing to say.

Firstly, by reading the books, I do not know where it is stated that the Gift/New Gift can't sustain a large population of people. We can infer that the North can't sustain that many people, sure, but we can also infer population numbers of other holdings. Karhold, and Last Hearth are close to the Wall, and can sustain a population large enough to support armies of a few thousand each. Unless they took literally every peasant they could to war with Robb Stark (they didn't since more go to war with Roose Bolton), we can assume they can probably have a much larger army due to manpower reserves alone, but probably can't support them financially (just like actual historical medieval armies).

Now, we don't really know population statistics of the far North (below the wall), but I wouldn't consider around 30,000 people living in the area of the Gift/New Gift to be all that much considering recruitment tactics of the Watch (recruitment which they can start to deny to people if their population increases), and the fact that 2/3 of the people would be combatants. That leaves 20,000 women and children to help with farming, tailoring, blacksmithing, squiring, doing all the mundane things that are required. It also frees up men of the Watch to farm the Gift/New Gift.

I never got the impression that the Night's Watch was in danger of going hungry in normal circumstances, even with those 10000 men. The only time they whine is when Jon wants to let thousands of Wildlings through the wall, and at the end of Fall when there won't be enough time to plant another crop before Winter. Hell, I read on this very forum that Ned was considering settling the New Gift with Northern lords, and peasants...so I don't really see the issue. More people does mean more food consumed, but it also means more food produced from hunting, fishing, and farming. It'd also allow the watch to do way more for itself: mining, setting up trade, foresting, building and manning ships, etc. All things that are useful to the Watch, and the realm.

As far as the children, I mentioned in my original post that everyone born under the LC would be sworn as members of the Night's Watch. Maybe I wasn't clear about that. Their induction could be at birth, much like a baptism is today. Again, don't see anything wrong with that when protecting the realm from monsters is the most important thing here, and this would create more of a "brotherhood" than wearing black uniforms would. Would also allow the watch to focus on things beyond the wall, perhaps even allowing them to take the fight to Other's themselves, or to expand into the Lands of Always Winter?

Creating a new kingdom...I mean, the Watch is already kinda separate from the Seven Kingdoms, though, isn't it? I always thought of them so, anyways. But, I mean, I know what you are saying...but there are very easy ways to make sure they can't attack you. For one thing, they are bordering a large and powerful area: the North, ruled by the Starks. For another, do not allow them to build castles that defend the Wall from incursions into the South (something that was done already due to the Night's King), and have the current Lord Commander be a bannerman of the North, or the a direct vassal of the Crown. Also, I believe their system of government (the "democratic" system they use to choose a LC) also is not conducive to creating a Kingdom.

I don't know. Personally, I just found the Night's Watch to be a poorly thought out idea, and I'm not even suggesting my idea is the perfect solution. However, I have a lot of problems with the Night's Watch, as a concept and in practice. Again, just my opinion.

[Ladylance]

I think it's been mentioned already, but the whole character of Jaqen H'gar. I like him as a character, but his story doesn't make a massive amount of sense. Assuming he is a faceless man, why and how did he end up in the cells below King's Landing? If he's supposedly a super-good assassin, then why was he caught, and why does everyone seem to know who he is?

Why does he offer Arya 3 lives, instead of one? He doesn't seem to have any massive sort of affection for Rorge and Biter at all. I know it's supposed to be some sort of balance thing, but it's at least a little contrived.

Why does he chose to stay at Harrenhall when he could leave, especially if he is on some super-secret mission for the faceless men? Especially if he is the man who kills Pate (which I agree does seem likely).

I know there are ways you can explain some of this to at least some extent, but when you put it all together, his appearance and existance is basically just a massive Deus-ex-machina to get Arya out of Harrenhall and on her way to the faceless men.

Also, basically every event leading up to the sacking of Winterfell feels contrived to a) get Bran to go North of the Wall (and Rickon to go to Skagos?) B) to get Ramsay Bolton/Snow in controll of Winterfell, and c) to get Theon in Ramsay's power.

Basically this arc just involves several people behaving in an arguably stupid manner to get characters where they need to be. Robb is arguably stupid in sending Theon to treat with Balon. Balon is arguably stupid for not going along with Robb's plan.

Theon's plan to take Winterfell feels a little convoluted (could he not just have tricked his way inside? At this stage, no-one in the North knows he's betrayed them. He could even have managed to get a hostage if he had been really clever- e.g. forging a letter saying Balon was being given Rickon as a ward or he could have taken the castle in a Trojan horse manner).

Ser Rodrick's response to Theon's plan is stupid- why does he take the majority of Winterfell's defenders (Just under 1000 men?) to deal with a relatively small force of Ironborn (I think it's just Dagmer's crew, so 30-100 men?) besieging a relatively unimportant castle, leaving the heirs to the realm undefended when there is a hostile force in the region. I know you can sort of match the two up- e.g. Theon came up with his plan because he knew how Sir Rodrick would respond, but painting Ser Rodrick as stupid, when he's been involved in teaching military strategy to Jon and Robb (Two of the best strategists in the Series, arguably) doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Theon's descision to stay in Winterfell when he learns he's not getting any reinforcements is a fairly bad idea. He's lost his hostages, he's proved his point, why not just go home, and live?

Also, the descision to take Bran and Rickon North seems strange. I know there must be reasons stated for it in the book, but surely it makes more sense to take them, or at least one of them south (to their mother and brother and land the Reeds are familiar with). I know there are Ironmen in Moat Cailin, but I'm sure the Reeds could have got around that, and do the characters even know that at this stage? Esentially it's just for the purpose of getting Bran to Bloodraven, and having Rickon not die in the RW.

I think, as with the Jaqen H'gar story line, it's not each individual action I struggle with. People are stupid sometimes. Robb and Balon both have reasons for behaving the way they do. I'm sure Theon has reasons for going with this plan, and not another one, but when you add it all together, it feels like it's been done for reasons of plot, not logic.

That said, I don't have a problem with things being done for reasons of plot, not logic occasionally, and both storylines are well enough written to be enjoyable to read, they're just the two chains of events I personally find most contrived.

[Dementia]

Jaime recognised the brave face Brienne was wearing to mask her fear-it was the same look he had seen on Cersei after she had sneaked out one night to visit a fortune teller at Lannisport, the night mousy little Mellara Hitherspoon had died.

Just an example.

See...this sounds so contrived to me unless Brienne had just seen a fortune teller or if her friend just drowned in a well. We don't know when Melara dies. It just says "soon" It may not have been the same night and even if it was, I don't see Cersei being found out.

[Beltway]

Yeah, that was beyond ridiculous! Everything about Talisa is pretty much silly. First of all how she looks, Volantene's look Valyrian, not like her. And why would a noblewoman from a VERY strict class society be binding wounds there? Her origin story is awful and full of holes as well. But the most annoying thing is that they went so Hollywood on her. They made her modern. You see these films where a young peasant girl is mouthing off at the king and getting away with it, in reality she would get killed on the spot.

Gonna point something out here

in reality she would get killed on the spot. But my friend it is indeed not reality so that renders your point moot

A noble woman from a strict social class not doing what they are expected to do Arya does it?

Of course it will have holes GRRM has created hundreds of characters with backgrounds I think we can let a few holes slide... Unless of course you would care to write an Epic fantasy series?

[The Mountain That Posts]

Honestly, fuck everything about the second season of the TV show in general. THAT is the definition of contrived right thar.

[Kittykatknits]

I don't know, branding/tatooing/maiming just seems like a better option to me. Its easy for a deserter to blend in with the population; just remove the cloak and you look like any other peasant. It's harder to cover a tatoo, a maimed hand, or a brand than just removing an article of clothing. Surely, you'd agree with that?

As far as the attempt to make the watch seem cool by dressing them in black...I don't know, I always felt black was the stereotypical "cool" color, and just really lame. The black as a coolness thing is a small problem, though.

Just my opinion here.

Actually, there's a reason why Martin had the men of the NW wear black. He is deliberately playing with the idea of the good guys in white and the bad guys in black. It's why the men of the KG wear white and the NW wear black. He threw out the good guy in white idea with the NW who are actually at the wall protecting the realms of men but are dismissed by much of the kingdom.

It's in an interview with Martin but I can't remember if I read it or saw it.

[Kolantero]

The three sandsnakes, each one having a "special" power and having one of their father's attributes

That there weren't more deserters from the Night Watch even before the Others.

[Pinkie Baelish]

Honestly, fuck everything about the second season of the TV show in general. THAT is the definition of contrived right thar.

I liked the second season... :crying: