What in ASOIAF did you feel was CONTRIVED?

[The Mountain That Posts]

Because she sneaked out at night and on the way back her friend drowned in a well?

I think there could be another reason for NO ONE ever mentioning the drowning and/or friend of Cersei's, besides Cersei herself. There's a lot of theories that said friend is Cersei's imaginary friend and was never real.

[straits]

I think there could be another reason for NO ONE ever mentioning the drowning and/or friend of Cersei's, besides Cersei herself. There's a lot of theories that said friend is Cersei's imaginary friend and was never real.

Doesn't make sense. The friend is never mentioned because nobody cares about the incident. She's not high-born. This would be like saying that any other person mentioned in a flashback doesn't exist because they aren't mentioned again.

[The Mountain That Posts]

I never said it made sense or it doesn't, just that it's a theory people have been tossing around in some other Cersei threads to explain why Cersei is the ONLY pov who mentions her existence and some other things about Cersei's personality and paranoia.

[StuSeaworth]

Robb marrying Jeyne Westerling

Syrio Forel

[deerhunter]

I don't find any part of the story contrived.

[Melaisilme]

Anything involving the Iron Islands. I just find reading those parts so unenjoyable.

[Mikeygigs]

A lot of stuff that has been said, I agree with, but something I have not heard mentioned...well, I may be in the minority (or alone) here, but I'll say it anyway...

The Night's Watch.

Yeah, the whole concept of the Night's Watch feels contrived, and very poorly thought out to me. Just seems like a poor man's Knight's Hospitaller/Templar, or something like that.

However, I really have two gripes with them: 1) celibacy, and 2) wearing black.

As far as wearing all black, I see this a really obvious attempt to make the Night's Watch seem like "badasses." This is not an order of men who sign up willingly. These are people who are, in most cases, forced into this situation. Also, the Watch is poor. So, you're telling me, that instead of just tatooing, branding, removing a finger (or doing all three) to show that an individual is a member of the Night's Watch, you go to the trouble of giving him a color-coded uniform that he can easily cast off at his earliest convenience, when the former solution would be a permanent reminder of his duty (or his treason, which would allow authorities to find him easier), while also allowing the Night's Watch to dress their men in more easily available clothes.

I don't know...I just find this to be one of those things that make the Night's Watch seem unrealistic, and even a bit artificial* in their construction. (*I mean an out-of-universe artificiality).

And the vow to never have a family:

I remember watching the show at first, and listening to Maester Aemon's reason as to why Night's Watchmen can't have families, and I scratched my head because I thought this was stupid, but perhaps an oversimplification of the book's reason. Then I read the book, and the reasoning wasn't much different. Huh...

It seems so unrealistic, and forced from a story standpoint. It also pretty much assured the eventual downfall of the Night's Watch, as well; for one, since this organization is based in a feudal culture where having sons is the most important thing in world, its not surprising that people would be fairly unwilling (as time went on) to voluntarily join the Watch. Even if we look back at the historic religious/military orders, like the Knights Templar, marriage was not outlawed, and indeed you could "buy" the right to wed and still remain a brother.

I understand the "reasoning" that some might give for this (even though it was never given in the story by the brother's themselves, I think): the Night's Watch is a place for second/third sons to go and die off, so as not to cause inheritance disputes. However, whats to stop everyone born under the LC to be sworn as a black brother/sister immediately after their birth? Like a baptism, of sorts?

Also, if you wanted to have a stable population at the wall, and ensure the men would not desert and instead fight vigorously to defend it, they should have made it mandatory for men of the Night's Watch to wed, and have children. This gives you a stable population growth (not really a problem in previous times, I'll admit), as well as a population of fighting men who will fight even harder knowing their families are on the line. This would also discourage desertion as people wouldn't be SO likely to leave their family behind, and if they wanted to bring their wife/kid it would make it easier to capture/find them.

TLDR;

To suggest that robbing men of the right to copulate, and have a family in the most miserable climate in Westeros is the most reasonable way to make sure men DO NOT desert, and ensure they fight with 100% of their conviction is just ridiculous. (Same as the Kingsguard, but they live in King's Landing, the capital as opposed to a frozen wasteland, and I'm pretty sure they can take lovers/wives without too many consequences, to be honest...as long as the lover/wife isn't the King's consort, so it KINDA mitigates my annoyance)

Also, handing out a black uniform (which in itself seems like an attempt at trying to make the Watch seem "cool") to every member of the Night's Watch, instead of taking the easy route of tatooing, or branding seems really unrealistic, and a bit artificial to me, as well.

DISCLAIMER: Jon Snow is my favorite character, and this is just my opinion.

[The Mountain That Posts]

I think the overall background/concept around the Night's Watch isn't that fleshed out, I agree.

But somehow, the Night's Watch plot is still perhaps my favorite plotline in the stories. Interesting how that works out.

[Brienne Of Bombay]

Nothing to be honest. I always felt that the character's lives were described more elaborately and leisurely rather than anything being contrived.

[PuzzleTime]

.........

Jon becoming LC is somewhat contrived... that there was no logical 2nd, 3rd, 4th in command to step up seemed forced to me.

.......

Yes, very silly considering the way nearly EVERYTHING in Westeros is succession oriented.

Who comes first, who comes second, who is second second after 3rd second....stuff like that.

[Pinkie Baelish]

A 9 year old girl training to become an assassin. It's cool, but it's like something straight out of a comic book.

[danm_999]

To suggest that robbing men of the right to copulate, and have a family in the most miserable climate in Westeros is the most reasonable way to make sure men DO NOT desert, and ensure they fight with 100% of their conviction is just ridiculous.

How, pray tell, are you going to feed the families of the Night's Watch, when the Watch struggles to feed its own members?

[Dr. Pepper]

As far as wearing all black, I see this a really obvious attempt to make the Night's Watch seem like "badasses." This is not an order of men who sign up willingly. These are people who are, in most cases, forced into this situation. Also, the Watch is poor. So, you're telling me, that instead of just tatooing, branding, removing a finger (or doing all three) to show that an individual is a member of the Night's Watch, you go to the trouble of giving him a color-coded uniform that he can easily cast off at his earliest convenience, when the former solution would be a permanent reminder of his duty (or his treason, which would allow authorities to find him easier), while also allowing the Night's Watch to dress their men in more easily available clothes.

The watch was originally an order of mostly willing members. The black isn't an attempt to make them "badass". It's meant to foster brotherhood. They are giving up their family and prior allegiances, which means giving up sigils and house colors and such. The Watch becomes their family, and family helps clothe it's members. There's also the very obvious that black is pretty much the easiest dye to make from raw resources that would be readily available in that area. Sure, tattooing or maiming is an option, but not a very good one. As you stated, it's a miserable area and the possibility for infection increases. There's also the fact that it can be covered, they are not slaves, and any crimes they committed before are wiped clean. No better way to say "You're signing up for life in prison and slave labor" than to tattoo or maim.

As for black being "cool" or "badass", I don't really get that impression in the series.

<snip>family<snip>

Like danm says, how do they feed these families? And where do they live? What do they do with descendants? At the time of Aegon I, the watch had 10,000 men. If those 10,000 men all had families settled on the gift and their children had children and so on and so forth, where do they live? The Gift area isn't bountiful enough to support a heavy population density. What happens to allegiance when those children marry in families in warring regions? The Night's Watch having their own cities of families is basically creating a new kingdom. So what do they do when they start getting attacked?

I don't think you thought this through very well.

[aquintus]

A 9 year old girl training to become an assassin. It's cool, but it's like something straight out of a comic book.

There are younger children trained to be killers in the real world today.

[Pinkie Baelish]

There are younger children trained to be killers in the real world today.

Yes, but not as assassins working by themselves. At least, I hope not.

[Scipio Africanus]

There are younger children trained to be killers in the real world today.

I fear you're refering to the disgusting practice of child soldiers in certain part of Africa and South America.

That's entirely not the same as having a 9 years old girl with the weight of a wet rat (thanks Renly) kill grown boys and men several times her weight, size, reach and strength, let alone becoming la femme Nikita at age 11.

Purely the realm of fantasy. I still love Arya sticking the pointy end into baddies, but I wouldn't exactly call it realistic.

[TheRaggedWildling]

Like danm says, how do they feed these families? And where do they live? What do they do with descendants? At the time of Aegon I, the watch had 10,000 men. If those 10,000 men all had families settled on the gift and their children had children and so on and so forth, where do they live? The Gift area isn't bountiful enough to support a heavy population density. What happens to allegiance when those children marry in families in warring regions? The Night's Watch having their own cities of families is basically creating a new kingdom. So what do they do when they start getting attacked?

I don't think you thought this through very well.

Where was it said that the Old Gift and the New Gift weren't fertile enough to support a sizable population? Wasn't that the entire point: to provide an area where peasants can live, so they can produce food and other goods for the Watch? According to the wiki, both Gifts combined equal about 50 leagues south of the wall. That is a line 150 miles deep, stretching across a continent. That could be (and most likely, is) a very sizable chunk of land available for farming, herding, fishing, lumbermills, quarries, etc.

More importantly, the families would serve to alleviate stress on the Watch, by "taking up some of the slack" in terms of resource-providers, the Stewards. If each of those 10,000 Watchmen had a family with 5 members (low for the middle ages), that would be 50,000 workers producing necessary supplies. That frees up available Watchmen, who in turn could be trained as Rangers.

As for what would the families do, I suppose they would do the same thing any other peasant would do: farm or take up a trade. The Watch always needs craftsmen, even if the volunteers don't want to be/don't have the necessary skills to be a soldier. Hell, allowing families could in fact create some sort of "Night's Watch Dynasty" effect, where children join the Watch because its what their father did. Boom, steady source of recruits AND supplies right there.

As for getting attacked who is going to be attacking them? The Wildlings? They do that anyways. Other lords? "The Night's Watch takes no part". With 10,000 members, even if only 1/3 are Rangers, 3,000+ professional warriors coming down on your head is going to ruin your day, EXPECIALLY if it is their families you are attacking. Plus, the families might have a militia going on, to protect against the Wildlings and to partially prepare just in case they do decide to join the Watch.

I just solved, like, 70% of the Night's Watch's problems right there. Forced celibacy is STUPID if you want to have a professional group of medieval soliders, especially when your fighting force is primarily made up of angry criminals. Having families could bring back professionalism to the Watch.

[Mother of Mountains]

All of Robert's court going to Winterfell, taking a month to do it. You're the fucking king. Summon Ned's ass to court. If you want to get out of the house that badly, go by horseback and take a small retinue. It just feels like it was done to get all the major characters together in one place and get the plot moving.

That's exactly the sort of thing medieval kings did, take the entire court on tours of the realm, hell, some of the early English ones had no permanent palace at all, always travelling between various castles. Ruling isn't just about force of arms it's about showing the realm that your power exists.

[Beltway]

Jon Snow's election as Lord Commander. Ygritte conveniently dying. Pretty much anything Jon Snow-related.

Oh yeah, I still don't fully understand how that happened.

Jon Snow as Lord Commander. yeah, let's pick young and unexperienced guy just as Others are truly coming.

Catelyn having to go to KL herself. Ok, maybe...

Catelyn bumping into Tyrion. Imagine you travel from Seattle to Miami. Another person travels in other direction. You bump into each other in a bar, by accident.

That Jon couldn't go to KL (that Ned's reasons were convincing to anyone, that is), that Jon couldn't stay with one of Ned's bannerman as man-in-arms and had to go to the Wall right away. That Jon wasn't taken to see the Wall for himself before he actually signed up - that's what loving parent would organize. Or that uncle never really explain the Watch to him. The Wall is not so far off! Their uncle is there, why not let kids visit? On that note, that Ned didn't do more to help the Watch. Surely there could be something. He's only one of like five most powerful men in the realm.

Dany cheating masters in Astapor. Seriously, in a whole history of ancient city no slave master of Unsullied thought: hey, what if somebody buys lots and lots of Unsullied and turns them on us, to avoid payment, and so nobody else can buy any unsullied? How 'bout we teach Unsullied not to ever attack US, just in case, you know?

The Jon parts Mormont's Personal Stewart, The 1st Rangers Nephew ( Those aren't big deals but it would at least help him some. )

Lead the Defense on the wall against the wildings, which is also where Ygriette died almost all the attacking party that got on the wall Died if I'm not mistaken as a matter of fact had she been one of the small survivors would've been actually contrived.

Not to mention he is one of the most educated and trained guys on the wall it's not really hard to see why he was chosen not to mention the other canidates did not get along with each other and one was janos slynt. Also you noticed the Others no one has had exprience with them so I don't see where that point comes from.

The Ned things who knows Ned is dead we'll never find out, but Im sure he did help the watch it's in his character even if it doesn't tell you he did.

It was for a DRAGON A REAL LIVE DRAGON I'm not sure how long dragons haven't been around but Im gonna guess over a hundred or so years, not to mention they tried to get the dragon with all the unsullied, so they had no one besides the few guards they may have had which is not enough to protect against 10,000 ( Not sure on the extact number )

[Beltway]

I am sure everyone would know that Mellara fell into a well and died-I am also fairly certain that at this point Joanna was dead, having given birth to Tyrion when the twins were eight.

No one mentions Mellara besides Cersei so who is to say that she is real at all?