What in ASOIAF did you feel was CONTRIVED?

[danm_999]

It's not working against Aemon, it's just ascertaining whether Stannis was indeed about to force their enemy on the Watch (which he wasn't).

It is working against Aemon, because Sam is viewed as Aemon's instrument. Mallister mentions;

Sam took a sip of wine, and chose his words with care. “A maester chained and sworn . . . it would not be proper for him to be seen as having influenced the choice of Lord Commander . . .”

The old knight smiled. “Which is why he has not come to me himself. Yes, I quite understand, Samwell. Aemon and I are both old men, and wise in such matters. Say what you came to say.

And on the practical level, the candidates know Aemon controls the election counts, and that Aemon has been having extended liasons with Stannis. There's no real reason for them to call bullshit here when his steward is telling them something.

Then pick someone older than sixteen.

Pyke and Mallister won't pick each other, and the other candidates are Slynt and Three Finger Hobb.

At a certain point, age becomes less important.

He's sixteen, a suspected deserter,

Nobody whose opinion matters thinks this though. Only Slynt and Throne. Aemon, Noye, Pyke, Mallister, Marsh, Yarwyck, the actual leaders of the Watch, view him as innocent.

and Winterfell is going to be no help for the forseeable future

But the North will. And a bastard of Eddard Stark would go a lot further than a rat of King's Landing.

(so he rode with Qhorin - who hasn't?).

Quorin was given his pick of every man on the Fist of the First Men. And who did he pick?

Jon. This isn't a fact lost on the Rangers.

Winterfell is wrecked, Tywin at the time is the only man who can help the Watch. Thumbing your nose at him is not wise.

What the fuck is Tywin Lannister going to do to the Night's Watch? Send them negative amounts of men? Only Bowen Marsh cares what he thinks, and Bowen Marsh eventually supports Jon anyway.

Tywin has no cachet on the Wall, unlike the Starks, even if Winterfell is wrecked.

[Selyse's Moustache Rides]

All of Robert's court going to Winterfell, taking a month to do it. You're the fucking king. Summon Ned's ass to court. If you want to get out of the house that badly, go by horseback and take a small retinue. It just feels like it was done to get all the major characters together in one place and get the plot moving.

[Foxhound]

As opposed to selecting a sixteen year old?

His brother was the same age, and got himself proclaimed king. Teenage leaders in the series are not unusual. You can call it unrealistic if you want, but it's not contrived, it's been established since the first book. So was the fact that Mormont lacked a clear successor, that the Watch had few competent officers, and that Jon was being set up for a leadership role.

[Selyse's Moustache Rides]

On the surface, I can see how Jon's quick ascent to position of LC seems contrived and extraordinary. However, we're reading a work of fiction. In the real world, there are extraordinary people, extraordinary circumstances, and ordinary people doing extraordinary things. Why would I want to read about an ordinary person doing ordinary things in ordinary circumstances? I don't, and that is why authors don't write about them. That is why I can forgive Jon's seemingly contrived ascension. I want to read about the extraordinary, whether in fantasy or reality-based fiction.

[otherbeef]

Jon wasn't even the youngest Lord Commander in the Night's Watch's history

[Melpomene]

I'll have to jump on the Ygritte-Jon bandwagon.

It just felt predictable from the start. It first has that Pocahontas-y cliche story to it, where boy has preconcieved notions about a cultural society full of the usual stereotypes, meets up with this culture face to face for the first out, turns out culture is actually smart and unique and learns from them, boy falls in like with one of their members. Then cultural clash ensues, and the love interest dies.

Especially on the Ygritte dying part. It was just screaming with predictibility. It is also an easy route out plotwise, since Jon had the dilemna of not being able to stay in her home as well as not being able to bring her back to south of the wall, with his secret identity and plans meshed in the middle.

It is a shame really, Ygritte should be a likable character to me, being a tough fiesty person in such a world. But she just didn't warm up to me, same with their relationship :dunno:

The story also seems to be a dumb excuse for Jon to lose his virginity. Which is annoying - a male character is under the lame category or however because he doesn't get laid, and folks cheer otherwise when it happens. Who the bloody hell cares? Grow up. People care too much about guys being able to "Get some". Is it really a big deal that Jon doesn't sleep with someone ever, or if he just waited a bit longer? It doesn't make him any less of a man or overall respectable human being. I care more about his basic character than what and when he does with his pants and sexual lable, geez.

[Booknerd2]

Ygritte served its purpose. Jon was a very different person before that relationship. It helped the character grow.

Gilly was good for Sam too to grow.

[Starkley]

Ygritte served its purpose. Jon was a very different person before that relationship. It helped the character grow.

Gilly was good for Sam too to grow.

Yea, they "grew" alright. Men looooove to grow.

[danm_999]

It just felt predictable from the start. It first has that Pocahontas-y cliche story to it, where boy has preconcieved notions about a cultural society full of the usual stereotypes, meets up with this culture face to face for the first out, turns out culture is actually smart and unique and learns from them, boy falls in like with one of their members. Then cultural clash ensues, and the love interest dies.

Especially on the Ygritte dying part. It was just screaming with predictibility. It is also an easy route out plotwise, since Jon had the dilemna of not being able to stay in her home as well as not being able to bring her back to south of the wall, with his secret identity and plans meshed in the middle.

Actually, if you're invoking the Pocahontas, Avatar, Dance with Wolves trope of cultural clash and the 'mighty whitey', Ygritte dying would be defying the cliche. In these types of stories, both lovers survive, and their love creates some sort of bridge between the two cultures.

[BobBob]

Sand Snakes and every single person in Slavers Bay.

Sand Snakes feel really dumb. Except for Sarella, if she's really Alleras then applauses for her. Bigger chance of her knowing magic to disguise herself as a man or she's just a really good mummer. When Oberyn died, despite forfieting his life in a trial by battle they want to go to war. I mean what?

Slavers Bay is just "Mwuahaha let us stick children on a cross and strangle puppies. Why you ask? Because we are evil." while they rub theirs hands together fiendishly.

Penny, it felt like George just needed a excuse to not make Tyrion just go completely cynical and give up on life.

The Great Ranging felt kind of dumb, they know the Others are back but instead lets go take the majority of our fighting force beyond the wall despite knowing nothing of our enemy except that they've returned.

[astonedtargaryen]

Not really. It just happens offpage so you don't see her caring for him day after day, spending all their hours together getting to know each other in that small slice of peace outside of the war only to have it stab you in guts one day on learning the person you considered a brother has just betrayed you and murdered your other brothers and people you had known your whole life.

Florence Nightingale syndrome and unbearable tragedy bringing two people together. Nothing weak about it just because Martin doesn't spell it out step by step and wanted people to use a little imagination.

Well yes, but it was nice to see it played out It felt very weak to me in the book, please excuse my lack of imagination.

Wasn't even my grievance to begin with, so why don't you take up your issues with the original source.

[Tookie Clothespin]

When Oberyn died, despite forfieting his life in a trial by battle they want to go to war. I mean what?

i think that Oberyn's death would've served an added pretext for Dorne's decision to go to war. And Oberyn's use of poison showed just how much value he placed in the rules of a trial by battle.

The Great Ranging felt kind of dumb, they know the Others are back but instead lets go take the majority of our fighting force beyond the wall despite knowing nothing of our enemy except that they've returned.

:agree:

[NewJeffCT]

The Great Ranging felt kind of dumb, they know the Others are back but instead lets go take the majority of our fighting force beyond the wall despite knowing nothing of our enemy except that they've returned.

eh - they encountered two wights, and had no idea of the extent of them beyond that. They know nothing about "The Others" being around other than that they were a legend from 8,000 years past. For all they knew, it could have been one freakish event. However, they knew thousands of wildings were gathering together for some reason under the banner of Mance Rayder. The wildings have been a much greater and more recent threat than The Others have been for those 8,000 years.

[BobBob]

Even so, with knowledge of the free folk gathering, the dead coming back to life, rangers disappearing on their rangings, it was not a wise move to lead a ranging with the bulk of the Night's Watch fighting force.

They don't have the manpower to even lead a force to try and launch a surprise attack on the wildlings, and they possibly have a new enemy waiting for both sides to weaken each other before revealing themselves.

[Wise Fool]

When Arya was talking to the Hound after his duel with Lord Beric and said "I'm not a boy! But Micah was." That seemed a bit wonky, I can't imagine people really talking like that. There was another point where a very similar bit of dialogue occurred. Something about that switch just seems too clever to be used in an emotional outburst, and not clever enough to be worth the using.

[The Mountain That Posts]

To everyone whose mentioned Jon's rise to Lord Commander, I would like to add that ORIGINALLY there was a five year gap between ASoS and what would've been the fourth book.

So in cannon world, there would have been plenty of time for Jon Snow to get used to things, evolve his character, etc.

But of course, publishers didn't think the gap was a good idea and GRRM realized he would've been relying too heavily on flashbacks in the fourth and fifth books. Shame. Ah well.

So take Jon Snow's role as LC with a grain of salt, if you can.

[Mormont'sRaven]

The dude who mentioned Penny is spot on IMHO. I couldn't stand that, thought it was so stupid. "Oh how about I throw in another dwarf for Tyrion to hang out with, cool!"

[DreamSongs]

Most contrived to me is Darkstar.

Yawn........

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

The Sand Snakes, as a lot of people have mentioned. I'm hoping he fleshes them out at some point but for now they're like Charlie's Angels: Westeros to me.

I also find the entirety of Slaver's Bay to just be damn ridiculous to the point that I think the entire thing is just a bigass strawman to make readers feel fluffed up on Dany before the rug's pulled out.

Dany cheating masters in Astapor. Seriously, in a whole history of ancient city no slave master of Unsullied thought: hey, what if somebody buys lots and lots of Unsullied and turns them on us, to avoid payment, and so nobody else can buy any unsullied? How 'bout we teach Unsullied not to ever attack US, just in case, you know?

I can't believe I forgot about this. Yeah, the Astapori slave thing is just incoherent in hindsight.

I also don't think Jon's election was that contrived. The guy was (sort of) a Stark, had been hand-picked as Mormont's steward — basically Mormont saying, "This kid is going to be LC someday" — Denys Mallister and Cotter Pyke were in a gridlock that wasn't going anywhere, a lot of the senior brothers like Benjen and Donal were missing and/or dead, Jon had literally just helped hold the fucking Wall against a wildling wave, and a lot of people didn't want to vote for the southern jackass who'd just shown up. I'm sorry, what's forced about Jon's election when you take all of that into consideration? I don't find it any more contrived than a teenager conquering Dorne or an eight-year-old boy holding court in Winterfell. Kids do some crazy stuff at young ages in this series. Singling out Jon's election seems deliberately persnickety to me.

[The Mountain That Posts]

The Sand Snakes, as a lot of people have mentioned. I'm hoping he fleshes them out at some point but for now they're like Charlie's Angels: Westeros to me.

Everything Dorne in general seems rushed and contrived to me.

I would have been FINE with five Areo chapters, five Arys chapters and eight Arianne chapters and being one big plot in AFfC. Instead we get, what, two Arianne chapters and one Arys chapter and one Areo chapter? Not enough time to grow attached to these characters, not enough time to make Darkstar seem legit, not enough time for Arianne's plan to build suspense and hype up the reader, not enough love for Arys for his death to be a shock, etc.