What in ASOIAF did you feel was CONTRIVED?

[PatrickStormborn]

The Iron Bank - IMO just a half assed idea how to make Braavos more connected to the main story. How the Iron Bank works and deals is just a matter of what outcome GRRM needs for the story and it makes zero sense. KL owns them money so instead of dealing with the megarich Lannisters (and possibly getting rid of Cersei) they send an ambassador to the Wall who promises an entire fortune to Jon just to get the direction to poor and lost Stannis? And then Stannis gets another huge aid in exchange for a promise he will pay back the KL´s debt if he somewhat someway happens to win the IT at the end? Good work, Ambassador, I´m sure your boss will be happy.

I completely forgot about this, and you're 100% right. Cersei said she would pay them back eventually without borrowing any more money. But because she won't make payments straight away they turn to Stannis, who requires a loan and a longer period of time over which to pay back the loan? And on top of that they're willing to aid the Night's Watch?

Ridiculous.

[Horza]

What are you referring to? I honestly have no idea what the smoke monster is, and I'm a huge LOST fan. ??/

Mel's shadowbabies.

But the shadow magic is draining and Stannis is visibly diminished by it, so it isn't like it comes without cost. Also, GRRM's conception of magic is one that doesn't have 'systems' and rules, so it is dangerous and powerful and can be used in the way tws1978 is objecting to.

[tws1978]

Another thing I never understood is why Littlefinger is supposedly so good as master of coin. Because when Ned first arrives in KL the realm is in a huge debt. When Cersei fires LF the realm is even in a bigger debt. There are some chapters where its said LF is good because he knows how and where to invest, but it seems all his investment plans only makes him richer but don´t bring any profit to the realm. Not just that, but he most likely uses (or atleast used at begining when he had no fortune on his own) the realm´s tax money for his investment schemes which would make him fired and inprisoned very quickly in any government in the world.

[David Selig]

Another thing I never understood is why Littlefinger is supposedly so good as master of coin. Because when Ned first arrives in KL the realm is in a huge debt. When Cersei fires LF the realm is even in a bigger debt. There are some chapters where its said LF is good because he knows how and where to invest, but it seems all his investment plans only makes him richer but don´t bring any profit to the realm. Not just that, but he most likely uses (or atleast used at begining when he had no fortune on his own) the realm´s tax money for his investment schemes which would make him fired and inprisoned very quickly in any government in the world.

He increased the tax revenues 10 times in just a few years, that's more than enough to make everyone consider him a financial wizard.

[Horza]

A couple of things are going on there:

1. - LF's investments are enriching the realm. Take a look at any early modern (or middle ages, for that matter) state, there's not a balanced budget in sight. States borrowed heavily to build fortresses and pay for armies and royal splendour, for new harbours and ships to protect their commerce, etc. Modern finance grew out of the markets for these ever-growing pools of government obligations. LF is adept at finding revenue to meet the interest on the loans he's taking out, the problems with the Iron Bank emerge later when he's out of office and the Kingdom is ravaged by war.

2. - LF is building up a Lannister dynasty. The Lannisters by virtue of owning large parts of the royal debt are in a position to expand their influence at court at the expense of other players. This was probably one of LF's plans he was keeping in play, in the hope of becoming attached to the Lannisters having facilitated their rise. It's also one of the reason why he was desperate to keep Stannis out, as he would have regarded LF's financial policy as something close to treason.

[LORD RONALD]

Well I always found the Dothraki kind of silly only in the way they attack the free cities unmolested. Is it just that the free cities find it easier to pay them off rather then fight those damn savages ?

[Arkantos]

I completely forgot about this, and you're 100% right. Cersei said she would pay them back eventually without borrowing any more money. But because she won't make payments straight away they turn to Stannis, who requires a loan and a longer period of time over which to pay back the loan? And on top of that they're willing to aid the Night's Watch?

Ridiculous.

If the person paying the loan can just decide when they pay then it doesn't show much respect for the loaner and it means they might not even bother paying back.

It's up to the both parties to decide when you pay, you have to make a mutual deal, you can't just decide of your own volition to stop paying for a random reason.

Also, who's to say that Cersei won't just say they're at war for the next 40 years and use that as a reason for not paying?

Basically, there are plenty of reasons for not letting your client dictate when they'll bother to pay you.

Another thing, the loan to Stannis was tiny anyway.

[Magic 8 Ball]

Well I always found the Dothraki kind of silly only in the way they attack the free cities unmolested. Is it just that the free cities find it easier to pay them off rather then fight those damn savages ?

I think the free cities turn Dothraki "tribute" into "trade and swap" sessions.

Witness Illyrio trading Dany and some eggs to Drogo in exchange for horses, fabrics, slaves, etc. They probably think they can hoodwink the Dothraki by passing off gifts that seem more valuable than they really are (i.e. Dany at the time), so why bother smashing them?

Deal with them, try to profit off it, then let them move on to wipe out other undesirables.

[astonedtargaryen]

Jeyne Westerling: yeah Robb took her maidenhood but she took his maidenhood too. It was mutual so why dickhead Robb felt obliged to break his marriage pact with the Freys to keep her honour? What about his?

This is why I'm alright with the show changing that part so much, because HBO gave us a real reason as to why Robb would break the marriage pact. He 'loves' her. In the book it feels pretty weak.

[Magic 8 Ball]

Sorry, just feel a need to expand on the Pentos/Dothraki trade equation :

1. Dragon eggs were rare, beautiful and inert. probably equivalent in value to original Fabrege eggs given to the royal family of Russia. Drogo got three of them.

2. Dany - a royal heir by obsolete claim and bluster only. A pretty teenage girl, which are a dime a dozen. More convenient to Illyrio when out of the way.

Illyrio gets :

1. Slaves. Slavery is officially illegal in Pentos, but practiced on the black market. Black market taboo goods increase exponentially in value.

2. Fabrics - think of what the value of silk, fine linen and laces was in comparable historic times in our history.

3. Horses - Dothraki horses are in my estimation the equivalent of Arabian horses. They have high intrinsic value as horses were undoubtedly more valuable in those times as not just work animals and sporting animals, but the principle mode of transport, and the primary mobile weapon of war. Breed the Dothraki stock with the local stock, and you can wind up with a product that is better than either progenitors, comparable to the Thoroughbred. It's like Illyrio could buy Lamborghini's, breed them to Porsches, and wind up with a car superior in it's performance in 10 times the numbers over a short period of time, only it wouldn't just be a performance car, but a tank and a Jeep at the same time.

So yeah, trade with the Dothraki and get richer, or come out and fight. Why bother?

[Jamie Lannister]

Ygritte is an example of that too-convenient-to-be-true romance done right, imo. Sure, she existed for the sole purpose of giving Jon a girlfriend, but she proved a likable and interesting character regardless.

[The Marquis de Leech]

Never really felt the Lord Commander election was particularly contrived. Even if Mallister and Pyke found out they were being played, I imagine they were intelligent enough to see the necessity of not electing Slynt.

There's no necessity involved. Slynt has baggage, but so does Jon (suspected deserter that he is). Pick s some harmless elderly dude, and be done with it.

[Dr. Pepper]

Oh...I just remember hair growth. Hair grows ridiculously fast in the series or else doesn't seem to grow at all. There were several wtf moments when it came to hair. It was an effort to shrug it off as something to just accept and not question.

[Booknerd2]

Doran's wife's relationship, or lack thereof, with her children Arianne, Quentyn, and Trystane.

His wife was so upset that they were not compatible and that she was worried about how her children would grow up culturally and with the ways of Dorne.

The best solution apparently is to check out and ignore them.

That she completely abandons them and leaves for a totally other place.

What??? That makes no sense. Am I missing something?

Wait until she finds out about Quentyn. She is a minor offscreen character, but the logic is ridiculous.

[Summer is Ending]

This is why I'm alright with the show changing that part so much, because HBO gave us a real reason as to why Robb would break the marriage pact. He 'loves' her. In the book it feels pretty weak.

Not really. It just happens offpage so you don't see her caring for him day after day, spending all their hours together getting to know each other in that small slice of peace outside of the war only to have it stab you in guts one day on learning the person you considered a brother has just betrayed you and murdered your other brothers and people you had known your whole life.

Florence Nightingale syndrome and unbearable tragedy bringing two people together. Nothing weak about it just because Martin doesn't spell it out step by step and wanted people to use a little imagination.

[The Marquis de Leech]

There's a flipside to all these impressions of course.

Mallister or Pyke didn't try and bother to verify Sam's story because they believed he was working on behalf of Maester Aemon, and to move against him would have been a blunder that would have compromised their standings beyond just the election.

It's not working against Aemon, it's just ascertaining whether Stannis was indeed about to force their enemy on the Watch (which he wasn't).

They picked Jon, someone young, because they believed more in the integrity of the Watch and need for stable and continuous leadership than their own politicking, and they weren't looking to run again. Essentially, they told Sam they would seriously consider a candidate other than their opponent, and this turned out to be true.

Then pick someone older than sixteen.

Jon's toxic status is not toxic at all. He was Mormont's squire; symbolism not lost on either Pyke or Mallister. He also had the trust of Donal Noye and Maester Aemon, and the people most loudly complaining about him were Janos Slynt, an outsider, and Allister Thorne, a notorious shitbag that everybody hated. In addition, he had held the Wall and had the admiration of half of Castle Black.

He's sixteen, a suspected deserter, and Winterfell is going to be no help for the forseeable future (so he rode with Qhorin - who hasn't?).

Concerning Tywlin Lannister; Mallister is from the Riverlands, and Pyke from the Iron Islands, neither of which would give much care about pissing off Tywin Lannister, who was never a friend to the Watch, and Jon represented the only significant power that did favour the Watch, Winterfell.

Winterfell is wrecked, Tywin at the time is the only man who can help the Watch. Thumbing your nose at him is not wise.

[The Marquis de Leech]

As several posters already explained to mr. Bolton's leech and cruela, there were none. There was no one left who was and capable and acceptable by a majority.

It's called a dark horse candidate, and history is littered with those, really it isn't surprising. The only thing you could say is that Martin was too vigorous in killing off senior rangers.

Dark Horses are generally older than sixteen. The 'elderly seat warmer' is a time-honoured feature of papal elections, which are the closest analogy to the Watch vote.

[The Marquis de Leech]

The "logical" solution is to put a seat warmer in charge of the Watch for a few years while it's in the middle of its greatest crisis in centuries?

As opposed to selecting a sixteen year old?

[The Marquis de Leech]

So they should try to curry favor with the same Tywin Lannister who has done absolutely nothing to support the watch, other than recommending Slynt for LC? Yeah, they should listen to outsider trying to influence the watch. Are you actually Bowen Marsh, trolling this thread?

How does pissing off the most powerful man in the realm actually help anything?

[total1402]

The Demon Road.

This plot device is the reason why Daenerys stays in Mereen. She had every intention before then of fighting her way with her freedmen to the sea. Had she been anywhere else in the world she would not have changed her course.

It prevents Aegon from linking up with Daenerys thus prefiguring a possible Dance with Dragons civil war.

It led to Qunetyn not meeting up with Dany earlier. No demon road, no crispy dornishman and he might even have married her if he got in before Aegon.

Tyrions POV chapters totally different, Vics totally different. No battle of Fire. Just a clean sail from Volantis to Westeros. Dany gets to Westeros with dragons before Others. Dany not driven to despair and possibly taking a darker path. Dany not left isolated where she'll be infuenced by the likes of Moqorro, Marwyn and Tyrion.

The demon road is one of the most contrived plot devices in ASOIAF and its impact on the plot is almost obscene. Whole characters and plotlines would have been totally different and maybe even the fate of the final battle with the Other because Martin put a massive impassable road which nobody can cross according to the Golden Company.