On Mel's Vision: Why Must Pyke be Destroyed?

[FittleLinger]

Someone can correct me, but I think that GRRM gave the audience the choice between an Aeron chapter and an Arianne one. The audience, being not-crazy, chose the Arianne chapter. And GRRM said something like, "OK but you missed out on something important by bypassing the Aeron chapter." Something to that effect.

Or in other words, there is a method to the madness of Aeron Greyjoy as a POV. :stillsick:

Thanks. So it was in a reading. So the hammer of the waters or a kraken is not coming in this chapter for sure, since Martin wouldn't do it in a first chapter, and more importantly won't offer it on a reading :D ( I was being ironic with kraken - I don't think we will see a kraken TBO).

Although I agree with you about the Damphair chapters, I see Arianne as a pretty close second :dunce:

[Rolex Baratheon]

Northmen attacking the Iron Islands would be cool. Tough sea folk vs tough snowlands folk. Nice battle right there.

[ServantOnIce]

I wanna see the Ironborn vs. the Dothraki . . . land reavers vs. sea reavers . .. the Great Stallion vs. The Drowned God ..

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

Meereen has pyramids not towers.

It's got both. Really, who would put pyramids on the corner of a defensive wall.

[Ser Wun Wun]

It's got both. Really, who would put pyramids on the corner of a defensive wall.

Indeed it does, from the chapter where Strong Belwas fights the champion of Meereen:

A thrum of excitement went through the siege lines when Belwas was seen plodding toward the city, and from the walls and towers of Meereen came shouts and jeers.

I'm not sure how the imagery of a 'dark tide rising from the depths' fits Vic sweeping into Meereen though. He's got Moqorro with him, who Quaithe called Dark Flame, which could work I suppose, but the 'from the depths' part is trickier. Also, why would the fires show Mel something happening on the other side of the world?

Meereen ties into the vision on some levels, but I think Pyke is a neater fit. It's definitely not Eastwatch though imo, for all the reasons other posters have pointed out.

[Faint]

Someone can correct me, but I think that GRRM gave the audience the choice between an Aeron chapter and an Arianne one. The audience, being not-crazy, chose the Arianne chapter. And GRRM said something like, "OK but you missed out on something important by bypassing the Aeron chapter." Something to that effect.

Or in other words, there is a method to the madness of Aeron Greyjoy as a POV. :stillsick:

That's basically what happened and I'm still upset about the choice the audience made. We had a general idea of what the Arianne chapter might be like and how she fits into the greater plot; many readers had even predicted something very close to the chapter before the author actually read it. Aeron is the one we have no idea about and how he factors going forward. I was much more inclined to find out about his chapter.

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As for Melisandre's vision, I'm pretty sure it's Pyke and I'm almost as sure it's metaphorical.

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

I'm not sure how the imagery of a 'dark tide rising from the depths' fits Vic sweeping into Meereen though. He's got Moqorro with him, who Quaithe called Dark Flame, which could work I suppose, but the 'from the depths' part is trickier. Also, why would the fires show Mel something happening on the other side of the world?

Meereen ties into the vision on some levels, but I think Pyke is a neater fit. It's definitely not Eastwatch though imo, for all the reasons other posters have pointed out.

The vision covers towers, skulls, lovers, and winged shadows. I would take winged shadow to mean, dragons. By which Meereen and near Meereen is the only place in the world that fits. Maybe it's a separate vision,or maybe its not.

[thewingedwolf]

Melisandre:

She saw the eyeless faces again, staring out at her from sockets weeping blood. Then the towers by the sea, crumbling as the dark tide came sweeping over them, rising from the depths. Shadows in the shape of skulls, skulls that turned to mist, bodies locked together in lust, writhing and rolling and clawing. Through curtains of fire great winged shadows wheeled against a hard blue sky.

Imo, the part in bold letters describes the Old Gods/Br destroying Pyke (I think the rest is a mixture of other visions).

But why? What will the Iron Born do that will bring down such wrath?

I can think of three reasons:

1. The Others have invaded the Iron Isles. I think this is the least likely because I don’t think water would kill them.

2. The Damphair and the Drowned God religion. “What is dead may never die, but rises again, harder and stronger.” Is there something secret or dark in the Iron Born religion we don’t yet know about? Will the Damphair try to summon his “drowned god” and not get what he was expecting?

3. Or perhaps Euron and company have gotten somewhere with the dragon taming thing or they are attempting something too dangerous with black magic.

My money is on option three but I can also see option two occur.

Now I wish people had picked the Damphair sample chapter from TWoW no one chose in those GRRM readings just to see if there was something telling in there.

Assuming it is Pyke that will be destroyed, I’d like to get your thoughts on why you think BR/Bran/CotF would want to conjure up such power in order to destroy an entire body of land, or at least the castle of House Greyjoy.

What if it is not mystical at all. What if the "dark tide" is really an invading force. If Euron was to lose a battle to Paxter Redwyne or if Victarion is not succesful what Melisandre saw could be another invasion of Pyke. I know it may sound overlay pragmatic but Melisandre has often been wrong and many of what she saw (i.e. Renly who turned out to Garland Tyrell, etc.) was misinterpreted.

[TheGriffonReborn]

It's got both. Really, who would put pyramids on the corner of a defensive wall.

Okay so it's got some, but Meereen is defined by it's pyramids not towers, so I don't think it would make sense to see towers in a vision of Meereen getting attacked.

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

Okay so it's got some, but Meereen is defined by it's pyramids not towers, so I don't think it would make sense to see towers in a vision of Meereen getting attacked.

Well at the moment Meereen is defined by Dragons, and the bay it is next to where the Iron Men are going to try and take the slavers unaware and run off with the queen. That sounds like a surer match than any other location to me! Besides who knows what happens when they blow that dragon horn.

[thewingedwolf]

I do not think the prediction is mystical in any way. I think it does foreshadow the doom of the Iron Islands (or at least of the Greyjoys) but I don't think it will be anything magical or some big divine conflict. I think it will be very human, much like there was no ghost in Renly's armor but a very live Garland Tyrell.

Unless I am mistaken, Melisandre has never predicted anything from the fires that has not been ultimately carried out by humans and not by divine intervention.

[eRome]

I've always assumed she was speaking of not Pyke, but Eastwatch falling when the Others breach the Wall and start to march on Westeros proper. Mel keeps harping on the Great Other, the gathering darkness, which translates into the Others and if they want into the realm they have to break the castles that stand between them. Eastwatch might be the first to fall...

[thewingedwolf]

I've always assumed she was speaking of not Pyke, but Eastwatch falling when the Others breach the Wall and start to march on Westeros proper. Mel keeps harping on the Great Other, the gathering darkness, which translates into the Others and if they want into the realm they have to break the castles that stand between them. Eastwatch might be the first to fall...

She thinks its Eastwatch but as mentioned earlier, she has been systematically wrong on all her interpretations of what she sees. Therefore I would go for Pyke

[Sevumar]

What if it is not mystical at all. What if the "dark tide" is really an invading force. If Euron was to lose a battle to Paxter Redwyne or if Victarion is not succesful what Melisandre saw could be another invasion of Pyke. I know it may sound overlay pragmatic but Melisandre has often been wrong and many of what she saw (i.e. Renly who turned out to Garland Tyrell, etc.) was misinterpreted.

I think the issue with this is that Melisandre's visions have usually been linked to events occurring around her, Jon, or Stannis. Obviously, the events foretold by this sequence of visions are still in the future, but if this is Pyke, it's quite a long way from Melisandre's present location. Other indications Melisandre has given us show that she believes her place will be at the Wall (or with the forces fighting the War for the Dawn), so it's quite a stretch to see how events on Pyke have anything to do with her unless they are also tied to the War for the Dawn. To me, that speaks in favor of a supernatural/magical role in it.

Again, this is all assuming that the vision points to the physical location of Pyke. As I pointed out in my earlier post, Melisandre's visions have not really featured locations in the past. They tend to revolve around people's actions and intentions. If the towers she did see were Pyke, it could be a representation of Cotter Pyke, and then both her interpretation of Eastwatch as the subject of the vision and the tie to her would be satisfied. We already know that Cotter Pyke is facing a difficult situation with what remains of the fleet at Hardhome and what is happening to him is unclear. Furthermore, Pyke's last communication speaks of "dead things in the water" which may be synonymous with Melisandre's "black and bloody tide.

[Sevumar]

She thinks its Eastwatch but as mentioned earlier, she has been systematically wrong on all her interpretations of what she sees. Therefore I would go for Pyke

Check above for an interpretation that allows the towers to represent Pyke, but not in the sense of the castle in the Iron Islands.

[thewingedwolf]

We already know that Cotter Pyke is facing a difficult situation with what remains of the fleet at Hardhome and what is happening to him is unclear. Furthermore, Pyke's last communication speaks of "dead things in the water" which may be synonymous with Melisandre's "black and bloody tide.

I guess the part I have a hard time with is the "dark and bloody tide" would imply a naval attack on the part of The Others.

[Sevumar]

I guess the part I have a hard time with is the "dark and bloody tide" would imply a naval attack on the part of The Others.

It doesn't have to be a naval attack, per se. It could be a tide of wights using the sea as cover for their movements, wights taking over a ship, or the Others freezing the waters. There are a few ways it could happen, but I think the tide refers more to the violence of the battle and destruction instead of necessarily meaning a naval assault.

[thewingedwolf]

It doesn't have to be a naval attack, per se. It could be a tide of wights using the sea as cover for their movements, wights taking over a ship, or the Others freezing the waters. There are a few ways it could happen, but I think the tide refers more to the violence of the battle and destruction instead of necessarily meaning a naval assault.

Its all speculation, but although you make some good points, I still have very little faith in Melisandre's interpretation abilities. I'll re-read all of this when I did not party all night the night before and perhaps it will make more sense to me ;)

[Old-Growth]

Are there towers at Hardhome? If so that is a possibility.

The language in this passage is reminiscent of the snippets we have describing the Doom. Can we rule out something happening on the east side of the narrow sea?

What about Gulltown or White Harbor? Or Lannisport? It seems to me the description given doesn't rule out very much, and the focus on Pyke is too narrow: just one possibility among others.

[Sevumar]

Are there towers at Hardhome? If so that is a possibility.

The language in this passage is reminiscent of the snippets we have describing the Doom. Can we rule out something happening on the east side of the narrow sea?

I don't think there are towers at Hardhome. It's described as a sheltered harbor with caves and the ruins of a town destroyed hundreds of years ago.

However, the destruction of Hardhome sounds like it has elements in common with the Doom:

Its people had been carried off into slavery or slaughtered for meat, depending on which version of the tale you believed, their homes and halls consumed in a conflagration that burned so hot that watchers on the Wall far to the south had thought the sun was rising in the north. Afterward ashes rained down on haunted forest and Shivering Sea alike for almost half a year. Traders reported finding only nightmarish devastation where Hardhome

had stood, a landscape of charred trees and burned bones, waters choked with swollen corpses, blood-chilling shrieks echoing from the cave mouths that pocked the great cliff that loomed above the settlement.

But that's in the past, so I doubt we'll be seeing a Doom-like event again within the course of the story.

What about Gulltown or White Harbor? Or Lannisport? It seems to me the description given doesn't rule out very much, and the focus on Pyke is too narrow: just one possibility among others.

We know almost nothing about the structure of the walls and keep at Gulltown, so it's not even certain that it would qualify for having "towers." However, Gulltown is one of my darkhorse candidates for a fulfillment of one of Dany's House of the Undying prophecies: "From a smoking tower, a great stone beast took wing, breathing shadow fire." The blazon for the arms of House Grafton of Gulltown is, "A burning tower in yellow, within a black pile, upon flaming red" featuring both a burning tower and the Targaryen colors.