Why Stannis wouldn't be a good king

[LeoSuperstar]

Do you think soldiers are some sort of mindless servants? That they won't ever rebel? That seems to be the implication.

Whether you want to admit it or not, or even to acknowledge it as a significant fact, Renly raised perhaps the major army in Westeros at that time. That, quite simply, means something. If nothing else, it surely means that those soldiers acknowledge that they may be called to fight for his cause and chose not to rebel against the notion.

Are you insinuating that the soldiers "choose" to fight for Renly because he is so cute, awesome and would be like, a totally perfect king? They fought for him because their overlords commanded. The size of his army is a testament of how close his relationship with Loras is, not a measure of his diplomatic skills.

[Lord Bronn Stokeworth]

Good Evening for you too. Also, try to avoid libel next time, will'ya?

Is it my fault that Stannis receives a lot more sympathy than what is in the books actually earn him?

Wait? Being called a Stannis hater affects your financial situation and/or ability to function in society?

Sorry. I know I'm being a smartass, but I couldn't help myself.

But really, being a hater isn't an insult. It means you hate something. I'm a Tywin hater and slowly am becoming a Dany hater (not quite there yet, the next book will probably decide that one). So, calm down.

You have got it backwards.

The soldiers don't follow them because they are powerful lords; instead, they are powerful lords because the soldiers lend them their support and their swords.

Which, by its turn, is why they get to make the laws.

I think you're confusing democracy with feudal monarchy.

The idea that they have a choice is probably something that has never even occurred to many of the small folk. They have been raised since birth to believe their lords are better than them. They do not give serious thought about the lords and their policies because democracy does not exist in their world view. Nor are most small folk educated in higher philosophical concepts such as the social contract.

[Arkantos]

Good Evening for you too. Also, try to avoid libel next time, will'ya?

Is it my fault that Stannis receives a lot more sympathy than what is in the books actually earn him?

I've said this before, many moons ago, your posts are written to provoke people, I doubt you even believe the stuff you spout. You're needlessly patronising and antagonistic.

And yet, Stannis is no more free of corruption than all the rest, is he? For all his stated lawfulness, he still keeps traitorous lords, still employs torturers. He is the man who, in fearing for his own life, fled King's Landing and abandoned his brother.

He keeps traitorous lords - well, he's allowed to forgive and it's necessary in the grand scheme of things if he is to heal the whole realm, he looks at the big picture, it doesn't mean he won't punish them if and when he wins.

Torture - why should he not? Explain.

'Fleeing KL' - he knew his brother wouldn't believe him and it could result in some sort of punishment just to bring it up. He went to raise an army, maybe to support his brother quickly when needed? It's a short trip from where he was raising men to KL, he'd have been perfectly poised to answer a call to arms or to avenge Robert, alas, things didn't work out. It's not his fault Robert had so few Baratheon men & supporters.

[Eating My Wings]

If common soldiers are free to say, "M'Lord, I do not approve on your actions, henceforth I will not serve in your army!" then why we are not told about even a single one who actually refused to take part in the Red Wedding, fight for Ramsay the Monster or set the Riverlands on fire?

[E-Ro]

Yes the idea that those 100k men "chose" renly is nonsense, we can all agree. This demonstrates a complete lack of understanding on how things work in westeros.

[The Great Walrus]

Yes the idea that those 100k men "chose" renly is nonsense, we can all agree. This demonstrates a complete lack of understanding on how things work in westeros.

It also demonstrates some other things, but i'd rather not say...

[E-Ro]

It also demonstrates some other things, but i'd rather not say...

Ha, yes its probably best not to.

[The Great Walrus]

Ha, yes its probably best not to.

Cause i'd rather not get warned today...

[The Red Pope]

Are you insinuating that the soldiers "choose" to fight for Renly because he is so cute, awesome and would be like, a totally perfect king? They fought for him because their overlords commanded. The size of his army is a testament of how close his relationship with Loras is, not a measure of his diplomatic skills.

Another form of diplomacy, my friend.

Anyway it's not enough to have Loras' favor, you also have to win Mace over, which is not that hard with a bit of sweet talk.

But let's imagine poor Stan as lord of SE instead. If he had just brought his incest tale to Highgarden and demanded their support, they would just have told him to go bugger himself bore someone else.

[Pyrrhus of Epirus]

Another form of diplomacy, my friend.

Anyway it's not enough to have Loras' favor, you also have to win Mace over, which is not that hard with a bit of sweet talk.

But let's imagine poor Stan as lord of SE instead. If he had just brought his incest tale to Highgarden and demanded their support, they would just have told him to go bugger himself bore someone else.

Stannis is already married to his wife, and has a heir, as sickly and female as she may be. Do you think Mace supported Renly because he's charming and has a nice smile? No, he married his daughter to Renly, so if Renly wins, she would be queen. I assure you, Loras may love Renly for Renly, Mace loves Renly for the prospect of having his family on the throne.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

You guys have such a fantastic notion about what a claim to the throne is that there is no helping it. Sorry, guys, I will return some other time. Have fun.

So you condescendingly dismiss the thoughts and opinions of others? We can all agree to disagree but there is no reason to be rude about it. It seems to me that everyone has a pretty simple view of what constitutes a claim.

Stannis would be a good king imo but wouldn’t be a successful one. It’s all about politics

Good point.

He is the man who, in fearing for his own life, fled King's Landing and abandoned his brother.

Stannis knew that Robert wouldn't believe him--considering the children being bastards makes Stannis the rightful heir--so he told someone Robert would believe and researched the situation with that person; Stannis did his duty to his brother. It wasn't until after Jon Arryn's murder that Stannis fled to Dragonstone. Why would he stay in King's Landing when he believes that the one man he confided in has just been murdered, and his brother will more than likely not believe his self-serving story? It made a lot more sense to go to Dragonstone and formulate a plan rather than to stay in King's Landing and wait to die under suspicious circumstances. Stannis had no way of knowing that Robert would be killed, especially not so quickly.

Whether you want to admit it or not, or even to acknowledge it as a significant fact, Renly raised perhaps the major army in Westeros at that time. That, quite simply, means something. If nothing else, it surely means that those soldiers acknowledge that they may be called to fight for his cause and chose not to rebel against the notion.

It does mean something. It means that Renly was able to gather a considerable army--through sex and marriage--that could have probably taken down the Lannisters; but through his extreme arrogance he chose to play at war, and it cost him his life.

You have got it backwards.

The soldiers don't follow them because they are powerful lords; instead, they are powerful lords because the soldiers lend them their support and their swords.

Which, by its turn, is why they get to make the laws.

I feel that your hatred of Stannis is clouding your reasoning.

[LeoSuperstar]

Double Post

[LeoSuperstar]

Stannis is already married to his wife, and has a heir, as sickly and female as she may be. Do you think Mace supported Renly because he's charming and has a nice smile? No, he married his daughter to Renly, so if Renly wins, she would be queen. I assure you, Loras may love Renly for Renly, Mace loves Renly for the prospect of having his family on the throne.

:agree:

[Lord Ben]

And that was 300 years ago. The High Septon does not decides who will be King.

No, but it provides a wonderful excuse for lords to bow out honorably. If you're fighting a losing cause but don't want to be the rat who jumps ship having the Septon declare Stannis King is a very very good excuse to put down the sword and go back home with some degree of honor.

[Spotted Cat]

why?

i guess i cannot trust a guy who can chop off body parts of a man who just saved you from starvation. the man has no compassion whatsoever and he is easily deceived. He has no heir, so the realm will fall to darkness after him (or it will be in the hands of who ever marries shireen)

For all his claims of unrelenting upholding of law, he was tempted to kill an innocent boy (almost did it IMO).

this said, i agree with you that he would clean westeros right up. lots of heads will roll and he'd make about a million enemies. when he is dead, (or assassinated) they will tear westeros to pieces.

[Fragon]

i guess i cannot trust a guy who can chop off body parts of a man who just saved you from starvation. the man has no compassion whatsoever and he is easily deceived. He has no heir, so the realm will fall to darkness after him (or it will be in the hands of who ever marries shireen)

For all his claims of unrelenting upholding of law, he was tempted to kill an innocent boy (almost did it IMO).

this said, i agree with you that he would clean westeros right up. lots of heads will roll and he'd make about a million enemies. when he is dead, (or assassinated) they will tear westeros to pieces.

I think with all those Robert's bastards, Stannis would probably name an heir if something happends to Shireen, he might even legitimize Edric Storm before and put him in the line of succession after his children. But again, I hope Selyse dies so he can marry someone with a few grams of brain, or even someone badass to become a badass couple.

And I wanted to reply for the Davos part, I'm not exactly sure but I kinda remember a Davos POV where he though that Stannis had given him the choice to leave with no punishment or to stay and become a landed knight in exchange for paying for his crimes. Davos chose to stay. (If my memory does not fail me it was kinda like this). In both case I think Stannis and Davos were both very satisfied of that deal, Davos' family prospered, his sons would have all had a very bright future if not for Blackwater.

I should check again for this part.

Edit: I checked at the wiki, I think I mixed it up with the fact that Davos asked Stannis to carry out the sentence himself.

[Spotted Cat]

I should check again for this part.

Edit: I checked at the wiki, I think I mixed it up with the fact that Davos asked Stannis to carry out the sentence himself.

i never got that you know

what difference does it make. you lose the fingers anyway.

may be davos wanted to brag about it....

if selyse died, he might marry mel. is that even possible?

[Lady Meera Reed]

i guess i cannot trust a guy who can chop off body parts of a man who just saved you from starvation. the man has no compassion whatsoever and he is easily deceived.

Thieves & smugglers are punished by cutting off their hands. Davos only lost the tips of four fingers for years of smuggling, but he gained knighthood, lands, a keep, & his sons will be knights as well.

[W.Kane]

i guess i cannot trust a guy who can chop off body parts of a man who just saved you from starvation. the man has no compassion whatsoever and he is easily deceived. He has no heir, so the realm will fall to darkness after him (or it will be in the hands of who ever marries shireen)

For all his claims of unrelenting upholding of law, he was tempted to kill an innocent boy (almost did it IMO).

-he chop off Davos fingers but gave him much more , as Stannis said he was a smuggler and a hero , Stannis just shortened four of his fingers and knighted him , gave him a lot of lands and a bright future for his family . Hell, even Davos seems to think that was just.

-Stannis has heir , Shireen. and he is still young , it is possible for him to have more children.

- "I never asked for this crown. Gold is cold & heavy on the head but so long as I am the king, I have a duty … If I must sacrifice one child to the flames to save a million from the dark … Sacrifice … is never easy, Davos. Or it is no true sacrifice".

he was not ok with that, actually he was about to do that to save Westeros . and well , he didn't do it anyway. we actually don't know for sure what would he do at the moment of truth.

[Kate Poem]

i guess i cannot trust a guy who can chop off body parts of a man who just saved you from starvation. the man has no compassion

Do You think Davos from Flea Bottom would prefer - for example - big sack of gold and, next, other side of the door than justice, knighthing, name, lands, feature for his children and little mutilation?

For all his claims of unrelenting upholding of law, he was tempted to kill an innocent boy (almost did it IMO).

Yes, he was tempted to kill his innocent nephew. Selyse and Melisandre sang endlessly "Your Grace, royal blood, wake the stone dragon" or "my lord husband, purify our marriage bed, I'll give you sons", Davos was'nt there and... Edric Storm played with Shireen, had lessons with maester Pylos, sword training with someone else...

You're right. He was tempted to kill an innocent boy. He is a monster!

Are You kidding, right?