[Sample] Arianne I, round 2

[History of Westeros]

It's only the beginning. Things have to be set up before they're properly executed. Also, the Tyrion chapter isn't just a game of Cyvasse.

Not only that, but he deliberately only reads/early releases the "low-action" stuff. Anyone who sat waiting for Feast and Dance for years on end will agree.

[History of Westeros]

Is it just me, or is it relatively obvious that Doran most likely sent Daemon knowing of his affections toward Arianne with the objective to be the real brains and to keep Arianne safe, with the promise of Arianne's hand ultimately?

I don't know, I feel like this is the only rational reason Doran would send him knowing their history together,

No way will Doran allow Arianne to marry Daemon. He rejected the notion outright about 9 years prior, no reason to change his mind.

[Jon Icefyre]

I doubt she had came to that conclusion. I think "Jon Icefyre" meant that to us the reader there's definitely no chance he isn't gay.

Arianne probably just thinks that he's a proud, prude.

Ya when I said confirmation I meant to us readers(not the characters in the book at this point) that have been sepculating JC's sexual orentation based on the info we already had on him before this sample chapter, and now when you add this I think most fans would consider it confirmed.

[Jon Icefyre]

The more I think about Arianne's current situation the more i'm inclined to think that Doran has the intention of marrying Aegon(if he believes he's legit) to Elia. Why else would Arianne be thinking about seducing JC "The hand of the true king", and if Daemon Sand is indeed in on the plan to try to seduce JC it still brings up the question why? Right now JC needs Dorne a lot more than Dorne needs him, and he's the one that wrote to Dorne asking for their support not the other way around so why is there a need to seduce him? The only thing I can think of is convincing him to let Aegon wed a lady of Dorne, and since it's clear Arianne still wants sunspear and is thinking about seducing JC instead of Aegon i'd say that only leaves Elia.

[Budj]

snip

I don't think he sent her for marriage purposes either...at the very most (if at all) it could be viewed as a 'breed' test. Rhaegar liked the tom boy type.

[Silverin]

The more I think about Arianne's current situation the more i'm inclined to think that Doran has the intention of marrying Aegon(if he believes he's legit) to Elia. Why else would Arianne be thinking about seducing JC "The hand of the true king", and if Daemon Sand is indeed in on the plan to try to seduce JC it still brings up the question why? Right now JC needs Dorne a lot more than Dorne needs him, and he's the one that wrote to Dorne asking for their support not the other way around so why is there a need to seduce him? The only thing I can think of is convincing him to let Aegon wed a lady of Dorne, and since it's clear Arianne still wants sunspear and is thinking about seducing JC instead of Aegon i'd say that only leaves Elia.

1. I highly doubt that Elia is there to marry Aegon, knowing that she is a bastard. Aegon is believed to be the son of Rhaegar, heir to the Throne, not to mention he still plans to marry Dany. Even if he learns dany is not an option, I still think if he marries anyone, it will be a noble girl. Doran would be even stupider than his average if he thinks he can get him to marry her like that.

The only way Aegon marries her, if he himself falls for her really hard, and that is not something that can be calculated that easily.

2. Seducing JC can have a reason, in uncovering the truth wether he is the real Connington and wether Aegon is real. The thing is JC is real, and he himself believes that Aegon is real. So this won't actually uncover any truth (but Doran doesn't know that). If anyone maybe some of the higher ranked GC members know it.

3. While JC is the one who is asking for Doran's support, but Doran has buisnis with them as well.

He could have just said, we don't believe you, Aegon died, and sit it out, wait for Dany.

The thing is Doran wants "fire and blood", he isn't getting any news from Quentyn, fom Dany, and the news about Dany can indicate that she is her father's daughter as well. Which means he is beginning to think he might won't get it from Dany, so he is inspecting wether Aegon is someone who can deliever him that.

[Jon Icefyre]

1. I highly doubt that Elia is there to marry Aegon, knowing that she is a bastard. Aegon is believed to be the son of Rhaegar, heir to the Throne, not to mention he still plans to marry Dany. Even if he learns dany is not an option, I still think if he marries anyone, it will be a noble girl. Doran would be even stupider than his average if he thinks he can get him to marry her like that.

The only way Aegon marries her, if he himself falls for her really hard, and that is not something that can be calculated that easily.

2. Seducing JC can have a reason, in uncovering the truth wether he is the real Connington and wether Aegon is real. The thing is JC is real, and he himself believes that Aegon is real. So this won't actually uncover any truth (but Doran doesn't know that). If anyone maybe some of the higher ranked GC members know it.

3. While JC is the one who is asking for Doran's support, but Doran has buisnis with them as well.

He could have just said, we don't believe you, Aegon died, and sit it out, wait for Dany.

The thing is Doran wants "fire and blood", he isn't getting any news from Quentyn, fom Dany, and the news about Dany can indicate that she is her father's daughter as well. Which means he is beginning to think he might won't get it from Dany, so he is inspecting wether Aegon is someone who can deliever him that.

Yes but this also brings up the point of if Doran finds out Quentyns dead, but also comes to the conclusion that Aegon is a fake what will he do? Maybe he simply tells JC that he believes Aegon is a pretender, so if he wants Dorne's support he will marry Aegon to Elia.

[Jon Icefyre]

No. Aegon, whether a fake or the real deal, would never wed a bastard. If anything, Doran would propose Arianne as proposing Elia would be a grave insult. Besides, the advance of Dornish spears relies entirely on Arianne's judgment, so Doran has abdicated himself in the matter.

Arianne wants sunspear and she's made that clear to Doran and as you said the ball is in her hands now, why is Arianne considering if she can seduce JC or not? I don't think that Doran or Arianne honestly believes that if Aegon is a fake they will get JC to admit it by simply sleeping with Arianne. It doesn't make sense to have Arianne sleep with JC if the end game is to have her marry Aegon, I mean shouldn't Aegon be the target instead of JC? JC wrote to Dorne asking for Dorne's help so why would she need to seduce him as if she needs to convince him of something? What is there to possibly convince?

[Silverin]

Arianne wants sunspear and she's made that clear to Doran and as you said the ball is in her hands now, why is Arianne considering if she can seduce JC or not? I don't think that Doran or Arianne honestly believes that if Aegon is a fake they will get JC to admit it by simply sleeping with Arianne. JC wrote to Dorne asking for Dorne's help so why would she need to seduce him as if she needs to convince him of something? What is there to possibly convince?

But if she can't get the truth by sleeping with him how the would that be enough to convince him to marry the prince to a bastard? I love Elia, but considering her status it is nothing but a great insult.

Beside Arianne wanted Sunspear before she even know about anything about possibly becomming a Queen. Now that becomming Queen is an option she might change her mind.

Btw: since Aegon wants to marry Dany, he might even say no to Arianne.

She might thinks she needs to convice JC if she wants to be Queen as well. Aegon is still a teenager, so she assumes JC is the leader, since he is the one who sent the letter. But we know Aegon listens less and less to JC.

EDIT: Since JC plans to marry Aegon to Dany, he obviously didn't write a letter in a way, that would mean they make Arinne the Queen if they support them.

No when he wrote it, they tought they would help, since Aegon is Elia's son, and to avange what happened to the family.

There is nothing about any marriage alliances from neither parties so far. It is mainly just our guesses.

But Arianne's mission is not to seduce Aegon or JC, but to try to reveal wether they are real. If they are real, he is a dragon, she sends "dragon" to Doran, and Dorne will attack.

Doran didn't require any other condition from Arianne, he didn't say there must be marriage for him to support Aegon.

All that has to be there for Arianne to think Aegon is real, and they have Dorne. Or Arianne to decide wether he is real or not she wants to support them.

[Jon Icefyre]

But if she can't get the truth by sleeping with him the truth how the would that be enough to convince him to marry the prince to a bastard? I love Elia, but considering her status it is nothing but a great insult.

Beside Arianne wanted Sunspear before she even know about anything about possibly becomming a Queen. Now that becomming Queen is an option she might change her mind.

Btw: since Aegon wants to marry Dany, he might even say no to Arianne.

She might thinks she needs to convice JC if she wants to be Queen as well. Aegon is still a teenager, so she assumes JC is the leader, since he is the one who sent the letter. But we know Aegon listens less and less to JC.

Seducing JC to convince him to let Aegon marry Elia is much different than doing it to get JC to admit Aegon is a fake. From JC's pov admitting that Aegon is a fake would make them too vulnarable in the grand scheme of things and make them even more dependent on Dorne's support than they already are. If he did know that Aegon was a fake he would hold that secrete to the grave and I think Doran would assume that. Once again if Arianne really wants to be a Queen why would she be thinking about seducing JC the hand of the King and not Aegon the actual king? What, so she's gonna bang the hand and then marry the actual king? I think that's a little too promiscuous even for Arianne. This is why I think they brought Elia, Arianne will work on JC and Elia will work on Aegon because at the end of the day it doesn't matter what JC thinks if Aegon(the king) commands him otherwise. I think if Arianne wanted to marry Aegon she would be trying to seduce Aegon as the king's opinion is what matters the most but instead she thinking about JC. This leaves Elia.. at the end of the day if Aegon wants to marry Elia he will marry Elia whether JC likes it or not, Aegon has already proved in ADWD that he now has a will of his own.

[Jon Icefyre]

I'm sorry, but this just doesn't make any sense. It's all well and good if Elia seduces Aegon, but seduction and marriage are two entirely different things. What you're ignoring is that Aegon has been reared to be a king...and part of that is learning that making a good marriage is key to winning support for his throne.

And what you're missing is that unlocking the mystery of Connington is the key to determining if Aegon is the (mostly) real deal or not. It doesn't really matter to anyone if Aegon really is Aegon, but it matters a great deal if JC really is JC. If Arianne can find hard evidence that JC is who he says he is, then that lends major credence to the story behind Aegon. That's why she's wondering if she'll be able to seduce him, because finding out JC's true identity is the determining factor of whether she sends word of "dragon" or of "war".

Part of learning that? The same way his supposed father learned not to sleep/run away with betrothed 15 year old women when you yourself are the crowned prince that is married with 2 kids? If Aegon is legit(even if he's a blackfyre which doran doesn't seem to suspect) he would have the blood of the Targs they're kind of known for making impulsive decsions based on what Rhaegar did to Doran's sister i'd say Doran understands this better than most.

[Silverin]

Part of learning that? The same way his supposed father learned not to sleep/run away with betrothed 15 year old women when you yourself are the crowned prince that is married with 2 kids? If Aegon is legit(even if he's a blackfyre which doran doesn't seem to suspect) he would have the blood of the Targs they're kind of known for making impulsive decsions based on what Rhaegar did to Doran's sister i'd say Doran understands this better than most.

But Doran absolutly didn't give any condition like that to Arianne.

He gave the decision into her hand. And there is no need for any marriage alliance between the two at all. If Arianne sais dragon (which means Aegon is real), Dorne will attack and support Aegon.

Right now Arianne's mission is to find out wether JC and AEgon is the real deal. That is all.

About her wanting to be a Queen, etc are all just guesses.

And this is absolutly not rational to see that if Elia can seduce Aegon the he is Rhaegars kid. There is no way that would prove that. I am pretty sure among the Targs there was many with many different tastes. And I am pretty sure there would be noTarg guys who would be charmed by Elie as well. (For example Rhaegar's mom gave up her love and chose to be a dutiful queen, she was a Targ as well, so not all Targs are impulsive)

On the other hand if she proves JC is real, from her POV Aegon s much more likely to be real either.

[Jon Icefyre]

So...you're going to ignore every argument I put forth and rehash your completely inane argument which is based entirely on a woeful inability to comprehend just what bastardy means in a place like Westeros and how offering a bastard in marriage is a grave insult? Sorry, but I just can't argue with that.

Kings can legitmize bastards just ask Robb Stark or Stannis and i'd say legitimizing a wife to make her a Queen would be less of a big deal than legitimizing someone to make them a heir or High Lord. The King rules not the queen.

[Jon Icefyre]

But Doran absolutly didn't give any condition like that to Arianne.

He gave the decision into her hand. And there is no need for any marriage alliance between the two at all. If Arianne sais dragon (which means Aegon is real), Dorne will attack and support Aegon.

Right now Arianne's mission is to find out wether JC and AEgon is the real deal. That is all.

About her wanting to be a Queen, etc are all just guesses.

And this is absolutly not rational to see that if Elia can seduce Aegon the he is Rhaegars kid. There is no way that would prove that. I am pretty sure among the Targs there was many with many different tastes. And I am pretty sure there would be noTarg guys who would be charmed by Elie as well. (For example Rhaegar's mom gave up her love and chose to be a dutiful queen, she was a Targ as well, so not all Targs are impulsive)

On the other hand if she proves JC is real, from her POV Aegon s much more likely to be real either.

Doran himself said this was a very dangerous mission he was sending Arianne on so why bring 14 year old girl with them? Surely Doran could have sent a more sutiable female companion with Arianne thats closer to her age, why risk putting your 14 year old niece in danger when there's really no need to bring Elia with, and I can't see Ellaria wanting this either. This is a pretty important mission concerning Dorne's fate why bring a 14 year old girl? Unless there is an end game to bringing Elia. I just don't see the point of bringing Elia unless they're gonna use her.

[Silverin]

Kings can legitmize bastards just ask Robb Stark or Stannis and i'd say legitimizing a wife to make her a Queen would be less of a big deal than legitimizing someone to make them a heir or High Lord. The King rules not the queen.

Cersei, Dany, Marg would disagree.

Beside who the Queen is very important because by smartly marrying he can get more troops.

At the moment no one can be a better candidate than Dany, since she can give hime dragons. Don't forget Aegon is waiting for Dany to arrive. A bastard girl cannot top that. Beside Dorne again is willing to support Aegon even withouth any marriage alliances, if they think he is the real deal.

So marrying Elia absolutly doesn't give anything to Aegon, on the other hand he looses possible supporters as well. Who the hell would support a king whose possibly an impostor who marries a bastard girl who brings nothing instead of a girl from an important noble family to support his case?

Robb Stark anyone?

Doran himself said this was a very dangerous mission he was sending Arianne on so why bring 14 year old girl with them? Surely Doran could have sent a more sutiable female companion with Arianne thats closer to her age, why risk putting your 14 year old niece in danger when there's really no need to bring Elia with, and I can't see Ellaria wanting this either. This is a pretty important mission concerning Dorne's fate why bring a 14 year old girl? Unless there is an end game to bringing Elia. I just don't see the point of bringing Elia unless they're gonna use her.

But again I don'T know how many times I wrote it down to you: ARIANNE DECIDES WETHER DORNE ATTACKS OR NOT

Not Doran, ok? Arianne. If she sais dragon, Dorne will attack. All she was said, uncover wether he is real or not. If he is real Dorne supports him. WHich means if ARIANNE sais dragon Dorne is supporting Aegon. Doran has no other condition than that.

Now Elia might did recieve other instructions, maybe she is there to try to seduce Aegon to learn wether he is real or fake.

But again Doran has no marriage condition about supporting Aegon. He compeletly gave this decision into Arianne's hands. She sais Aegon is real they support him. That is all.

[Jon Icefyre]

Cersei, Dany, Marg would disagree.

Beside who the Queen is very important because by smartly marrying he can get more troops.

At the moment no one can be a better candidate than Dany, since she can give hime dragons. Don't forget Aegon is waiting for Dany to arrive. A bastard girl cannot top that. Beside Dorne again is willing to support Aegon even withouth any marriage alliances, if they think he is the real deal.

So marrying Elia absolutly doesn't give anything to Aegon, on the other hand he looses possible supporters as well. Who the hell would support a king ose possibly an impostor who marries a bastard girl who brings nothing instead of a girl from an important noble family to support his case?

Elia gives them Dorne JC has already said getting Dorne's support is the most improtant thing for them in fact I'm pretty sure he said they need Dorne's support above all else. Doran is a politically sound catious man. JC doesn't know what Doran's thinking he doesn't know what is intentions are and Doran might use that to his advantage and pressure JC into a favorable situation for Dorne concerning marriage. JC doesn't know that if Aegon is legit Doran will for sure give them his support(even though he will) and Doran knows that and might use this against JC.

[kingofashes]

I guess thats the Aurenne Waters thats set himself up as Lord of the Water? the guy that was Cerseis master of ships?

Atleast the talk of massive 3 tiered ships makes me think so.

a new pirate king has set up on Torturers Deep. The Lord of the Waters, he styles himself. This one has real warships, three deckers, monstrous large

Ah damm it I didn't see the other thread. I'm guessing its been commented on already and I'm late for the ball.

[Silverin]

Elia gives them Dorne JC has already said getting Dorne's support is the most improtant thing for them in fact I'm pretty sure he said they need Dornes support above all else. Doran is a politically sound catious man. JC doesn't know what Doran's thinking he doesn't know what is intention are and Doran might use that to his advantage and pressure JC in to a favorable situation. JC doesn't know that if Aegon is legit Doran will for sure give them his support(even though he will) and Doran knows that and might use this against JC.

Exept it is not Doran who they have any kind of negotiation but with Arianne. They negotiate with Arianne, because she is the one who went to them.

Not Doran but Arianne.

Not Doran but Arianne.

Not Doran but Arianne.

He gave the decision into her hands. Again Arianne is the one who has to decide.

And again Elia is a bastard girl.

Aegon can get Dorne's support even withouth marriage. Doran did not say any marriage condition to Arianne and she is the one who makes the call wether Dorne supports Aegon or not.

Not Doran but Arianne.

Not Doran but Arianne.

Not Doran but Arianne.

Beside Doran very possibly will die soon, he seemed to have a really bad condition.

And again Elia is a bastard girl.

It is a worst mistake than Robb marrying Jeyne Westerling. At least she is legitimate, and Robb had no problem with legitimacy.

Aegon on the other hand has problem, with prooving his heritage. To him marrying because of that is even more important. His marriage has to strengthen his legitimacy. A bastard girl cannot do that. Dany is the one who he wants to marry, since if she accepts him then there is no more questions asked. If he hears rumors (about Dany's marriag and her assumed death), and he has to marry someone else, there are still other girls who would help that more. And again he does not need to marry anyone to get Dorne. That was never part of the condition, just wether he is fake or not.

SO my guesses for Elia Sand:

1. try to seduce him to learn wether he is real or not (she will conclude he is real, since he himself believes he is real)

2. She has some kinda prophet inside her? she is Oberyn's daghter part of the Martell family, so he has Targ blood, maybe Doran is hoping to use that in uncovering wether he is real or not.

But again the call is Arianne's, and the only condition of support is for her to say Aegon is real.

[Jon Icefyre]

Okay, so we've gotten beyond not understanding the stigma of bastardry (kind of), and now we're stuck on an inability to understand the political importance of marriage in a fuedal society. Sorry, still can't work with you.

I know what the political importance of marriage is that's why Doran would want Elia to marry Aegon to put the Martell bloodline back in the royal family. Yes Aegon would be half Martell but if he married a no Martell blood and had a child, that child would not consider the Martells it's family by Westeros standards. But if Aegon married someone with Martell blood that would further cement the Martell bloodline in the royal family.

[Jon Icefyre]

Exept it is not Doran who they have any kind of negotiation but with Arianne. They negotiate with Arianne, because she is the one who went to them.

Not Doran but Arianne.

Not Doran but Arianne.

Not Doran but Arianne.

He gave the decision into her hands. Again Arianne is the one who has to decide.

And again Elia is a bastard girl.

Aegon can get Dorne's support even withouth marriage. Doran did not say any marriage condition to Arianne and she is the one who makes the call wether Dorne supports Aegon or not.

Not Doran but Arianne.

Not Doran but Arianne.

Not Doran but Arianne.

We've only read one sample chapter of Arianne so we don't know everything Doran has told her just yet. Plus the fact that Doran wants Arianne to report to him obviously shows he will give her more orders/instructions that will be based on whether she tells him Aegon is legit or not. Who's to say if he's legit Doran won't offer marriage? Yes Elia's a bastard but Aegon can fix that just as fast a past kings have done before him and with her comes Dorne. If half the realm supported a legitmized bastard aka Daemon Blackfyre what makes you think they will care that Rhaegar's true heir and king of Westeros(Aegon) wants to marry Elia? Especially if Aegon and JC have indeed taken Storms End and align themselves with Dorne?