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The Princess and the Queen [SPOILERS]


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Wait, who do you mean? Aenys I had no sisters.

Aenys had more than 1 sister, Maegor married one but they had no kids and Aenys married someone in westeros for political reasons so it leaves at least 1 unmarried targ princess so its possible she married an Arryn.

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Daena,



as of yet, no details on her. My best guess is that she is going to marry Rhaenyra's eldest son. The one who is going as her envoy to the Vale and eventually to Winterfell. I hope she is going to survive the war but that does not seem likely. According to the MUSH's appendices there were quite a lot of casualties in the Vale during the Dance.



On Velaryon features:



Yeah, if Rhaenyra's Velaryon husband really did not look Valyrian things would be much more interesting. I had not thought about that. Unfortunately we don't know yet anything about the Strongs. But if GRRM did not change the events all that much when he deleted Lord Lyonel, we can expect at least some Strongs fighting for Rhaenyra.



The new revelation about a powerful Velaryon fleet, rivaling the strength of the Greyjoy fleet, starts to shed some light on the standing of House Velaryon during the Targaryen era. They apparently were very powerful. Almost look like a great house! And they should be firmly under Rhaenyra's control.



In my minds the Velaryons have been the first-choice Westerosi noble house for the Targaryens to choose brides/grooms from if an incestuous marriage was not possible (and there was no pressure for a political marriage). And they power apparently did no wane during the Dance. Alyn 'Oakenfist' Velaryon was the architect and executioner of Daeron's victory over Dorne. And he apparently was Aegon III nephew (son of the brother of Aegon's second queen).



Aenys's sisters:



Visenya and Aegon had only one child, Maegor.



Aegon and Rhaenys had Aenys - first born son - and either two or three sisters. Apparently no second son. The eldest sister was married to Maegor. Whether a daughter of Rhaenys, Aenys, or Jaehaerys was married to an Arryn is not yet clear. But there was definitely such a marriage at one point. Aenys's eldest daughter may have been Maegor's second Targaryen wife. But we don't yet know if Aenys had only three children in the end - the eldest as of yet unnamed daughter, Jaehaerys, Alysanne, or if there was another child.



On dragon eggs:



We don't yet know for sure if Dany's eggs were truly fossilized. I'd not be surprised if dragon eggs always looked as if they were made of stone. The dragon egg in TMK could be one of Dany's and it is way too young to be fossilized...



The interesting thing is that apparently the Targaryen children were supposed to hatch their eggs all by themselves - which is something Dany did, as well. Since there were still adult living dragons present, the obvious thing would have been for the dragons to mate, produce eggs, and then sit on them until they hatched. Afterwards the Targaryens could have taken the young dragons and bind with them. Apparently that's not what happened. The dragons mated and produced eggs, and then the Targaryens put them in the cradles of their children. Magic is obviously involved there!


All of Rhaenyra's sons apparently had bonded with recently hatched, young dragons.

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The interesting thing is that apparently the Targaryen children were supposed to hatch their eggs all by themselves - which is something Dany did, as well. Since there were still adult living dragons present, the obvious thing would have been for the dragons to mate, produce eggs, and then sit on them until they hatched. Afterwards the Targaryens could have taken the young dragons and bind with them. Apparently that's not what happened. The dragons mated and produced eggs, and then the Targaryens put them in the cradles of their children. Magic is obviously involved there!

All of Rhaenyra's sons apparently had bonded with recently hatched, young dragons.

Nice that ties into my theory I had in another thread on Dany bonding Drogon whiles he wasn't hatched yet which explains her dreams of him before.

Dany touched Drogon's egg after the dream and it was warm.

I am guessing the ideal process was for the egg to hatch after Dany had that dream.

As it didn't my guess is that it was because dragons didn't exist so it wasnt able to hatch and this may have been the case for all targs post TDoD.

We noticed in Qarth Quaithe said the dragons amplified fire magic so it is possible existence of dragon were needed for the Targaryens to hatch their eggs, so one could interpret it as dragons existing would amplify fire magic and the process of Targs hatching eggs from their cribs is a form of fire magic that needed amplification.

I maybe wrong so we will just have to wait and see.

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I agree with the notion that Dany's eggs may never have been fossilized. However, when they hatch the cracking is extremely loud, and the way the shells broke always made it seem like they were extremely hard. That could just be how dragon eggs normally are, though.



There is literally no chance the egg in TMK is Dany's, unless dragon eggs can change color. One is black with scarlet streaks, the other is red with black streaks. They are the inverse of each other.


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I did not mean that the Butterwell egg is one of Dany's. I only meant that it was described in a way that resembled Dany's eggs. That is, if Illyrio did not lie and Dany's eggs are indeed fossilized dragon eggs from the Shadowlands beyond Asshai, then there is obviously no real difference between fossilized and relatively new, non-fossilized dragon eggs. And that would be very, very strange...



Dragon eggs and dreams:



If we really think this through it may actually be the case that Dany's dragon dreams, especially the dreams about a dragon who could have been a vision of Drogon, were not that special. It's quite likely that all the Targaryens who hatched their own dragons bonded with their dragons and/or caused their eggs to hatch through prophetic/magical dragon dreams.



The proximity/prominence of fire during magical dragon-egg-hatching would be a given on Dragonstone. The Dragonmount is a volcano. And I'd not be surprised one bit if all the Targaryens bonded with their dragons on Dragonstone. Aenys and Maegor most likely bonded with Quicksilver and Balerion on Dragonstone (Aegon relocated the whole family to Dragonstone after the Conquest).



Dany may be exceptional because she is the Unburnt and brought the (Targaryen) dragons back 150 years after they have gone extinct. But I think we can argue that the dragon egg hatching in itself was not a singular event per se.



[by the way, it would be really great if some people prophesied that Rhaenyra's stillborn girl was supposed to be the prince that was promised.]


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I did not mean that the Butterwell egg is one of Dany's. I only meant that it was described in a way that resembled Dany's eggs. That is, if Illyrio did not lie and Dany's eggs are indeed fossilized dragon eggs from the Shadowlands beyond Asshai, then there is obviously no real difference between fossilized and relatively new, non-fossilized dragon eggs. And that would be very, very strange...

Your actual words were "The dragon egg in TMK could be one of Dany's and it is way too young to be fossilized..." :)

Forgive my need to nitpick, you're still one of my favorite posters.

Dragon eggs and dreams:

If we really think this through it may actually be the case that Dany's dragon dreams, especially the dreams about a dragon who could have been a vision of Drogon, were not that special. It's quite likely that all the Targaryens who hatched their own dragons bonded with their dragons and/or caused their eggs to hatch through prophetic/magical dragon dreams.

The proximity/prominence of fire during magical dragon-egg-hatching would be a given on Dragonstone. The Dragonmount is a volcano. And I'd not be surprised one bit if all the Targaryens bonded with their dragons on Dragonstone. Aenys and Maegor most likely bonded with Quicksilver and Balerion on Dragonstone (Aegon relocated the whole family to Dragonstone after the Conquest).

Dany may be exceptional because she is the Unburnt and brought the (Targaryen) dragons back 150 years after they have gone extinct. But I think we can argue that the dragon egg hatching in itself was not a singular event per se.

[by the way, it would be really great if some people prophesied that Rhaenyra's stillborn girl was supposed to be the prince that was promised.]

I think you're probably right about where the bonding took place. Dragonstone and the volcanoes seem to be vital.

Great call on the PtwP thing, that could really spice things up.

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In a Davos chapter we learn that exactly 3 Velaryons were chosen as brides for Targaryen princes. This may not include pre-Iron Throne marriages. It is specific that they were brides, so Rhaenyra's husband is clearly not included.



3 seems a bit low, perhaps that's the number for marriages to princes who became king only. But what it says is "princes".


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I did not mean that the Butterwell egg is one of Dany's. I only meant that it was described in a way that resembled Dany's eggs. That is, if Illyrio did not lie and Dany's eggs are indeed fossilized dragon eggs from the Shadowlands beyond Asshai, then there is obviously no real difference between fossilized and relatively new, non-fossilized dragon eggs. And that would be very, very strange...

Dragon eggs and dreams:

If we really think this through it may actually be the case that Dany's dragon dreams, especially the dreams about a dragon who could have been a vision of Drogon, were not that special. It's quite likely that all the Targaryens who hatched their own dragons bonded with their dragons and/or caused their eggs to hatch through prophetic/magical dragon dreams.

The proximity/prominence of fire during magical dragon-egg-hatching would be a given on Dragonstone. The Dragonmount is a volcano. And I'd not be surprised one bit if all the Targaryens bonded with their dragons on Dragonstone. Aenys and Maegor most likely bonded with Quicksilver and Balerion on Dragonstone (Aegon relocated the whole family to Dragonstone after the Conquest).

Dany may be exceptional because she is the Unburnt and brought the (Targaryen) dragons back 150 years after they have gone extinct. But I think we can argue that the dragon egg hatching in itself was not a singular event per se.

[by the way, it would be really great if some people prophesied that Rhaenyra's stillborn girl was supposed to be the prince that was promised.]

Thats possible but I think there is alsi connection to the death of the dragons and hatching.

The moment all dragons die, Targs cant hatch anymore, that is after the DoD.

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Will you make a podcast with the info we learned from the reading about Aegon and his sons. I enjoy listening to them. :)

Thanks! We had one planned that was worked on for a while, and Lord Varys was a part of it, but scheduling was a pain and now we're going to wait until after The Princess and the Queen is out, so we can get the full picture. A few more details about the early Iron Throne period should come out of it.

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Thanks! We had one planned that was worked on for a while, and Lord Varys was a part of it, but scheduling was a pain and now we're going to wait until after The Princess and the Queen is out, so we can get the full picture. A few more details about the early Iron Throne period should come out of it.

So Aenys had daughters not Aegon?

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I believe even GRRM calls Dany's birthing of the dragons as "miraculous". Sadly I doubt tPatQ will give us insight there (for the fossilized eggs, we should learn a few things about normal ones), but we can hope.

I actually wondered: what if the "fossilized" eggs is their normal look? I mean, if the Targ kids were given an egg in their craddle and were supposed to hatch them themselves, it would take years before the Targling was able to do it on his/her own. The egg had to be extremely resilient and the dragon inside dormant to survive that long.

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That's the whole point with the dragon eggs. Somehow 'fossilized eggs' look exactly like much younger eggs (e.g. both look and feel like stone, have scales, have intertwined colors which foreshadow the coloring of their dragons etc.).



This seems to indicate that Dany's eggs were not actually fossilized eggs but were Targaryen dragon eggs delivered to Illyrio by Varys during or shortly after the War of the Usurper.



We could deduce as much from TMK as well as from the description of Princess Elaena's dragon egg.



But now we also know that the young Targaryen children were not only given dragon eggs after the dragons died out, but also during the time when they still had dragons. Viserys II is the one son of Rhaenyra who has not yet hatched his dragon egg. And it's strongly implied that the elder four sons all got eggs and hatched them. We know for sure that their four dragons are apparently all young hatchlings who never had other riders.


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I believe Lord Varys is correct that all the eggs seem as if they've turned to stone. Here are what should be all of the relevant quotes, (one from TMK, many from aGoT) note the descriptions of weight:



Lord Butterwell had placed it on a black velvet cushion atop a marble plinth. It was much bigger than a hen's egg, though not so big as he'd imagined. Fine red scales covered its surface, shining bright as jewels by the light of lamps and candles. Dunk dropped the dwarf and picked up the egg, just to feel it for a moment. It was heavier than he'd expected. You could smash a man's head with this, and never crack the shell. The scales were smooth beneath his fingers, and the deep, rich red seemed to shimmer as he turned the egg in his hands. Blood and flame, he thought, but there were gold flecks in it as well, and whorls of midnight black.



a stone reference from TMK:



The sight of it made him think back on the words the Fiddler had spoken, up on the roof. I dreamed that you were all in white from head to heel, with a long pale cloak flowing from those broad shoulders. Dunk snorted. Aye, and you dreamed of dragons hatching from stone eggs. One is likely as t’other.



Dany sees the eggs for the first time:



They were the most beautiful things she had ever seen, each different than the others, patterned in such rich colors that at first she thought they were crusted with jewels, and so large it took both of her hands to hold one. She lifted it delicately, expecting that it would be made of some fine porcelain or delicate enamel, or even blown glass, but it was much heavier than that, as if it were all of solid stone. The surface of the shell was covered with tiny scales, and as she turned the egg between her fingers, they shimmered like polished metal in the light of the setting sun. One egg was a deep green, with burnished bronze flecks that came and went depending on how Dany turned it. Another was pale cream streaked with gold. The last was black, as black as a midnight sea, yet alive with scarlet ripples and swirls. “What are they?” she asked, her voice hushed and full of wonder.


“Dragon’s eggs, from the Shadow Lands beyond Asshai,” said Magister Illyrio. “The eons have turned them to stone, yet still they burn bright with beauty.”


So it is Illyrio who plants the suggestion that they are extremely old. "Shimmering like polished metal" etc. The descriptions don't actually sound very stone-like, except for the weight. Yet later multiple times she describes them as stony in some form or another.


As for the bonding, Dany clearly seems to be bonding with Drogon very very early on in the process. This is only her 3rd chapter:



Yet when she slept that night, she dreamt the dragon dream again. Viserys was not in it this time. There was only her and the dragon. Its scales were black as night, wet and slick with blood. Her blood, Dany sensed. Its eyes were pools of molten magma, and when it opened its mouth, the flame came roaring out in a hot jet. She could hear it singing to her, She opened her arms to the fire, embraced it, let it swallow her whole, let it cleanse her and temper her and scour her clean. She could feel her flesh sear and blacken and slough away, could feel her blood boil and turn to steam, and yet there was no pain. She felt strong and new and fierce.

And the next day, strangely, she did not seem to hurt quite so much. It was as if the gods had heard her and taken pity. Even her handmaids noticed the change. “Khaleesi, “ Jhiqui said, “what is wrong? Are you sick?”

“I was,” she answered, standing over the dragon’s eggs that Illyrio had given her when she wed. She touched one, the largest of the three, running her hand lightly over the shelf. Black-and-scarlet, she thought, like the dragon in my dream. The stone felt strangely warm beneath her fingers... or was she still dreaming? She pulled her hand back nervously.



Yet as the quote indicates, that is her second dragon dream. The first comes *before she has the eggs* yet she is clearly dreaming of hatching dragons:



There are no more dragons, Dany thought, staring at her brother, though she did not dare say it aloud.

Yet that night she dreamt of one. Viserys was hitting her, hurting her. She was naked, clumsy with fear. She ran from him, but her body seemed thick and ungainly. He struck her again. She

stumbled and fell. “You woke the dragon,” he screamed as he kicked her. “You woke the dragon, you woke the dragon.” Her thighs were slick with blood. She closed her eyes and whimpered. As if in answer, there was a hideous ripping sound and the crackling of some great fire. When she looked again, Viserys was gone, great columns of flame rose all around, and in the midst of them was the dragon. It turned its great head slowly. When its molten eyes found hers, she woke, shaking and covered with a fine sheen of sweat. She had never been so afraid...

... until the day of her wedding came at last.



more, Dany tries to convince herself that the heat from the eggs is natural:



As she let the door flap close behind her, Dany saw a finger of dusty red light reach out to touch her dragon’s eggs across the tent. For an instant a thousand droplets of scarlet flame swam before her eyes. She blinked, and they were gone.

Stone, she told herself. They are only stone, even Illyrio said so, the dragons are all dead. She put her palm against the black egg, fingers spread gently across the curve of the shell. The stone was warm. Almost hot. “The sun,” Dany whispered. “The sun warmed them as they rode.”


As an aside, this tidbit is interesting though not particularly related:


She had heard that the first dragons had come from the east, from the Shadow Lands beyond Asshai and the islands of the Jade Sea. Perhaps some were still living there, in realms strange and wild.



With Rhaegal's egg, no heat, but a sense that Rhaego is bonding with it?



Irri fetched the egg with the deep green shell, bronze flecks shining amid its scales as she turned it in her small hands. Dany curled up on her side, pulling the sandsilk cloak across her and cradling the egg in the hollow between her swollen belly and small, tender breasts. She liked to hold them. They were so beautiful, and sometimes just being close to them made her feel stronger, braver, as if somehow she were drawing strength from the stone dragons locked inside.

She was lying there, holding the egg, when she felt the child move within her... as if he were reaching out, brother to brother, blood to blood.


More descriptions of stoniness:


“No. He cannot have my son.” She would not weep, she decided. She would not shiver with fear. The Usurper has woken the dragon now, she told herself... and her eyes went to the dragon’s eggs resting in their nest of dark velvet. The shifting lamplight linmed their stony scales, and shimmering motes of jade and scarlet and gold swam in the air around them, like courtiers around a king.



and:



When the coals were afire, Dany sent Ser Jorah from her. She had to be alone to do what she must do. This is madness, she told herself as she lifted the black-and-scarlet egg from the velvet. It will only crack and Burn, and it’s so beautiful, Ser Jorah will call me a fool if I ruin it, and yet, and yet...

Cradling the egg with both hands, she carried it to the fire and pushed it down amongst the burning coals. The black scales seemed to glow as they drank the heat. Flames licked against the stone with small red tongues. Dany placed the other two eggs beside the black one in the fire. As she stepped back from the brazier, the breath trembled in her throat.

She watched until the coals had turned to ashes. Drifting sparks floated up and out of the smokehole. Heat shimmered in waves around the dragon’s eggs. And that was all.

Your brother Rhaegar was the last dragon, Ser Jorah had said. Dany gazed at her eggs sadly. What had she expected? A thousand thousand years ago they had been alive, but now they were only pretty rocks.

They could not make a dragon. A dragon was air and fire. Living flesh, not dead stone.


Fever dreaming of the birth of dragons, the death of her son (which has happened already, though she is not aware) and foreshadowing/predicting herself riding Drogon over the Dothraki sea at the end of aDwD:



Viserys stood before her, screaming. “The dragon does not beg, slut. You do not command the dragon. I am the dragon, and I will be crowned.” The molten gold trickled down his face like wax, burning deep channels in his flesh. “I am the dragon and I will be crowned!” he shrieked, and his fingers snapped like snakes, biting at her nipples, pinching, twisting, even as his eyes burst and ran like jelly down seared and blackened cheeks.

“... don’t want to wake the dragon

The red door was so far ahead of her, and she could feel the icy breath behind, sweeping up on her. If it caught her she would die a death that was more than death, howling forever alone in the darkness. She began to run.

“... don’t want to wake the dragon

She could feel the heat inside her, a terrible burning in her womb. Her son was tall and proud, with Drogo’s copper skin and her own silver-gold hair, violet eyes shaped like almonds. And he smiled for her and began to lift his hand toward hers, but when he opened his mouth the fire poured out. She saw his heart burning through his chest, and in an instant he was gone, consumed like a moth by a candle, turned to ash. She wept for her child, the promise of a sweet mouth on her breast, but her tears turned to steam as they touched her skin.

“... want to wake the dragon... “

Ghosts lined the hallway, dressed in the faded raiment of kings. In their hands were swords of pale fire. They had hair of silver and hair of gold and hair of platinum white, and their eyes were opal and amethyst, tourmaline and jade. “Faster,” they cried, “faster, faster.” She raced, her feet melting the stone wherever they touched. “Faster!” the ghosts cried as one, and she screamed and threw herself forward. A great knife of pain ripped down her back, and she felt her skin tear open and smelled the stench of burning blood and saw the shadow of wings. And Daenerys Targaryen flew.

“wake the dragon

The door loomed before her, the red door, so close, so close, the hall was a blur around her, the cold receding behind. And now the stone was gone and she flew across the Dothraki sea, high and higher, the green rippling beneath, and all that lived and breathed fled in terror from the shadow of her wings. She could smell home, she could see it, there, just beyond that door, green fields and great stone houses and arms to keep her warm, there. She threw open the door.

“... the dragon... “

And saw her brother Rhaegar, mounted on a stallion as black as his armor. Fire glimmered red through the narrow eye slit of his helm. “The last dragon,” Ser Jorah’s voice whispered faintly. “The last, the last.” Dany lifted his polished black visor. The face within was her own.



Later she tries to crawl towards the eggs, knowing she must do something important, despite her utter weakness, fever and pain.


She does feel the heat off Viserion's egg, though she has only dreamed of Drogon still:



“Bring me...” she murmured, her voice slurred and drowsy. “Bring... I want to hold...”

“Yes?” the maegi asked. “What is it you wish, Khaleesi?”

“Bring me... egg... dragon’s egg... please...” Her lashes turned to lead, and she was too weary to hold them up.

When she woke the third time, a shaft of golden sunlight was pouring through the smoke hole of the tent, and her arms were wrapped around a dragon’s egg. It was the pale one, its scales the color of butter cream, veined with whorls of gold and bronze, and Dany could feel the heat of it. Beneath her bedsilks, a fine sheen of perspiration covered her bare skin. Dragondew, she thought. Her fingers trailed lightly across the surface of the shell, tracing the wisps of gold, and deep in the stone she felt something twist and stretch in response. It did not frighten her. All her fear was gone, burned away.



But no one else seems to feel the heat:



Ser Jorah and Mirri Maz Duur entered a few moments later, and found Dany standing over the other dragon’s eggs, the two still in their chest. It seemed to her that they felt as hot as the one she had slept with, which was passing strange. “Ser Jorah, come here,” she said. She took his hand and placed it on the black egg with the scarlet swirls. “What do you feel?”

“Shell, hard as rock.” The knight was wary. “Scales.”

“Heat?”

“No. Cold stone.


I wonder if there is foreshadowing in the placement of the eggs on the pyre. The spoiler chapters hint at Viserion possibly having a connection to Tyrion, though not in any certain terms. Tyrion would be an amusing connection given the placement of Viserion's egg... at Drogo's crotch:


She climbed the pyre herself to place the eggs around her sun-andstars. The black beside his heart, under his arm. The green beside his head, his braid coiled around it. The cream-and-gold down between his legs. When she kissed him for the last time, Dany could taste the sweetness of the oil on his lips.



More similarities to stone during the birth of the dragons:



She heard a crack, the sound of shattering stone. The platform of wood and brush and grass began to shift and collapse in upon itself. Bits of burning wood slid down at her, and Dany was showered with ash and cinders. And something else came crashing down, bouncing and rolling, to land at her feet; a chunk of curved rock, pale and veined with gold, broken and smoking. The roaring filled the world, yet dimly through the firefall Dany heard women shriek and children cry out in wonder.

Only death can pay for life.

And there came a second crack, loud and sharp as thunder, and the smoke stirred and whirled around her and the pyre shifted, the logs exploding as the fire touched their secret hearts. She heard the screams of frightened horses, and the voices of the Dothraki raised in shouts of fear and terror, and Ser Jorah calling her name and cursing. No, she wanted to shout to him, no, my good knight, do not fear.for me. The fire is mine. I am Daenerys Stormborn, daughter of dragons, bride of dragons, mother of dragons, don’t you see? Don’t you SEE? With a belch of flame and smoke that reached thirty feet into the sky, the pyre collapsed and came down around her. Unafraid, Dany stepped forward into the firestorm, calling to her children.

The third crack was as loud and sharp as the breaking of the world.


That should be all the relevant quotes, though perhaps I'm missing Dany remembering detail about the eggs much later, or a reference in another book I'm not thinking of.



P.S. while searching for "egg" in aGoT I sure did learn a lot about leggings and begging. Then there's searching for "egg" in the Dunk and Egg novellas...


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