Do you think that Robb Stark not supporting Stannis is presented as a mistake?

[Guest]

He should have supported Stannis. The whole reason his father was beheaded was for telling the truth about Cersei's children and backing Stannis. With Rob on Stannis side he would have been seen as loyal to the true heir and it would have given Stannis more credibility.

If he had joined with Stannis I really think they would have mopped the floor with the Lannisters, especially since I think once Rob joined with Stannis Renly would have backed down.

The sad part is though, that there is the chance Rob's own men would not have supported him. They made it clear they were done with "Southron Lords".

[Barty]

Robb's mistake was trying to hold the Riverlands. There was just no way the North could ever hold the Riverlands from the Iron Throne. There was just no way he could ever have any agreement with Renly or Stannis whilst claming the Riverlands. He might have got away with the North, but even then Renly or Stannis would have invaded to force homage.

Robb should have held off proclaiming himself King of the North and the Trident. Spoke to possible allies in the South, but he had no real reason for choosing Stannis over Renly. Both were usurpers so might as well go for the more powerful one or neither.

However, he should have bent the knee after the Tyrell/Lannister alliance and the Iron Islands invasion.

I think Robb very well understood that he could not hold the riverlands alone which is why he tried getting alliances from all factions. He sent his own mother to Renly, sent multiple letters to Lysa and freed Theon at nearly the same time in hopes of getting at least 1 ally in his fight against the Lannisters. The Lords of the Trident put Robb in a very bad situation - they all bent the knee to Robb and appointed him as their King. He now had no choice really - his honor would not allow him to abandon his family(Tullys) and followers to the Lannisters even though it was a doomed cause.

As for bending the knee - that is out of the question. The Lannisters killed his father - he could never forgive that. If he bent the knee his own lords would turn on him - a similar situation arises when Robb beheads Rickard Karstark. The BlackFish thinks Harrion might agree to follow Robb but Robb reminds him that Harrion is a Northman and the North remembers - In Robb's opinion Harrion's own men would turn on him if he openly bent the knee to Robb again.

[Barty]

I suppose this is a dual question. The heading and also whether he would have actually won or not with Stannis. I personally got the feeling that the whole northern independence arc wasn't seriously pursued, it sort of springs out of thin air, there are no true grievences that can't be solved by putting another monarch on the Iron Throne; theres not a lot of effort to make the case for northern independence. I never felt Martin was trying to make me sympathise with that cause in of itself, with the Starks themselves, of course; but not exactly that element of it. When Robb has this pushed on him by the Greatjon, he seems about to support Stannis and do the honourable thing. However, I think the fact that he takes the crown is a sign of the boy in him and his inability to resist the romanticism of being sworn in as King of the North. Its one of, IMO, the few instances where doing the honourable thing might have actually turned out a lot better for the Starks; they still swore oathes of fealty to House Baratheon.

Had they supported Stannis, they could have taken advantage of Stannis's meteoric rise and Robb Starks victories in the Westerlands. More importantly, Robb could have possibly made an effort to stop Tywin Lannister relieving Kings Landing. Not to mention the effect this might have had on the actions of other players like House Tyrell.

Does that seem about right? Or is not supporting Stannis not made out as a mistake by Martin?

I think the opposite is true. Martin is trying to show that Stannis made the mistake by not supporting Robb when he needed help(IMO). As soon as Robert died and Ned was arrested, everyone could see a war was brewing between the Starks and Lannisters. Robb would have to march south to free his father and sisters. At this point Stannis made the mistake of sitting on his ass and hoping people would come begging to him for help. As soon as Stannis heard Robert is dead and Ned is captured and declared traitor he should have sent a raven to WF telling Robb the truth about why his father was captured and offering help in getting him back. And instead of taking his ships and sailing for SE he should have sailed for WH and then joined Robb at MC.

If Stannis fights alongside the Northmen at the GeenFork/WW then the Northmen and Riverlords would declare for him no questions asked. Stannis realizes this too late

I was trying to win the throne to save the kingdom, when I should have been trying to save the kingdom to win the throne.

He should have been trying to save the North and Riverlords from the Lannisters to get their loyalty instead of trying to win the IT first and then defeat the Lannisters.

Now because of his mistake he is likely to be kicked out of the North after the Northmen are done using his forces against the Boltons and Freys(GNC).

[aceluby]

I think Stannis not supporting Robb as King in the North was the mistake. Stannis absolutely could not let that happen because he's too proud and required that Robb bend the knee after the entire north + riverlands declared for Robb. Robb, IMO, didn't really have a choice to back Stannis once Stannis refused to treat him as an equal. Had Stannis won at Blackwater and destroyed the Lannisters he would have turned his sites on the North & Riverlands to either bend the knee or be punished for their insolence. Robb was stuck choosing between his bannermen who no longer wanted to be ruled by the IT, and Stannis who represented the IT and would be forced to swear fealty against the wishes of his sworn bannermen. He was pretty much screwed regardless.

Rock - Robb - Hard place

[missclaire17]

But still, an invasion of King's Landing by Stannis AND Robb, where Joffrey gets taken down? That I would have loved to see.

It's exactly because of this that I think Stannis is the one making the mistake here. Robb's main goal is to get revenge on the Lannisters and see the Lannisters out of the Iron Throne. Stannis, Renly, Robb doesn't really care which Baratheon is on the Iron Throne even if he knows that Stannis is the rightful king. Stannis could have made things a lot easier on himself if he allied himself with Robb. Not to mention, I think Stannis made a huge mistake by killing Renly. A temporary alliance to get rid of the Lannisters could have happened, and whatever happens afterwards of who gets the Iron Throne between the Baratheon brothers could have been left to deal with after the Lannisters are gone, and Robb gets his revenge and goes back to the North.

[HodorForTheIronThrone]

I never understood what Robb's plan was, he's King in the North so revenge was the only thing bringing him to King's Landing. If he'd managed to win the throne, what then? Would he have become King of all of Westeros? He should have bowed to Stannis who was next in line after Joffrey, and once Robb found out Joffrey was illegitimate he would have realised Stannis was the true heir. He wanted justice for his Father not complete power. Ned and Robert worked together so why couldn't Robb and Stannis. The Starks (and Baratheons) are fools.

[Frey Pie]

No it was not a mistake by Robb nor was it portrayed as one by George. The fault lies with stannis on this one. If he meant to defy the crown and make his own claim, make it and stop brooding like a fool ok his glorified stone

The proper move for Stannis here would have been to declare himself early. Transport his men to the Riverlands and link up with Robb. Robb would have declared him king and Stannis would have proved himself more of a king then any other by protecting his people ie the Tullys who had been wrongfully attacked by the Lannisters

[Buried Treasure]

I never understood what Robb's plan was, he's King in the North so revenge was the only thing bringing him to King's Landing. If he'd managed to win the throne, what then? Would he have become King of all of Westeros? He should have bowed to Stannis who was next in line after Joffrey, and once Robb found out Joffrey was illegitimate he would have realised Stannis was the true heir. He wanted justice for his Father not complete power. Ned and Robert worked together so why couldn't Robb and Stannis. The Starks (and Baratheons) are fools.

Robb's objective never was explicitly to take Kings Landing. Rather, it was to weaken the Lannister forces enough that they would agree to terms he wanted. He basically achieved that, after relieving Riverrun, as the Small Council found a compromise solution that would have allowed Robb to negotiate a peace with the Iron Throne, but Joff screwed that up by beheading Ned. After that Robb wanted to kill Joffrey, but but his plans did not make it a specific war aim. He continued to fight to weaken the Lannister forces so that they would eventually have to agree to his new goals of having his sisters returned and having his kingdom recognised. He was also willing to ally with Renly, and if they had allied it would have been Renly to take Kings Landing and the Iron Throne.

I do think that if Stannis had declared for king despite being 4th in succession behind Joff and siblings ( i.e. if he had declared without revealing the incest), then Robb would likely have supported him. It was the solution Robb wanted, as it would have been the best compromise of honour and law. There was even a throwaway line after the letter from Renly arrived when one of Robb's council said 'we were expecting it would be Stannis' - and obviously they were not expecting Stannis to make a lawful claim but be a pretender to his nephew's throne. Robb was in no doubt Joff was lawful king, but he could not in honour kneel to his father's killer. Robb seems to think the next lawful heirs would have been acceptable liege lords for him, but they would not have been able to accept his fealty because they would only be king or queen if had killed their older brother. Robb did not outright reject the notion of Stannis as king, he was the first lawful heir that Robb could in honour kneel to, but Robb could not declare for a man who had not declared himself. Robb did not know if Stannis would sit out the war, or fight for his brother or his nephew, so given what Robb knew it would have not been smart to bow to him.