Thoughts on Lady Stoneheart

[Errant Bard]

And fortunately for you (OP) it seems like Stoneheart's sole purpose in life(?) is to rid Westeros of Freys.

Not really, though, we see in ASOS that only the ones having participated in the Red Wedding have to fear, and also, she has an orphanage, is looking for Arya and Sansa (seen in the russian edition) and is still protecting smallfolks, as the number of people watching Brienne's trial shows.

[Lion of Judah]

She's doing more than just killing Freys, she took Robb's crown for a reason, I doubt she plans on wearing the thing. I am of the belief that she will eventually make her way back to Winterfell and may play a part in Jon's story.

[Weirguild]

I wanted so badly for her to have enough humanity left inside so that the amazing faithfulness of Brienne would not fail to spark some thanks and warmth.

Instead she proved what I think GRRM wants to make a clear theme of the whole saga: that while natural death is a part of every life, return from death is dangerous at best, and tends toward corruption.

From the moment I saw Lady Stoneheart among the outlaws, I was dying to know how much of human Cat was left in her. Obviously memory and mind are there, but I knew that her reaction to Brienne's unfailing attempt to fulfill her oaths to Cat would be the true test, because if stubborn, blind faith and duty, even to a dead woman, did not move her, then she was no human and only a monster. Such was proved to be the case.

Note also how Lord Beric became a little less human after being brought back - how he couldn't really remember as much before he was killed and revived at the Mummer's Ford.

GRRM is trying to show us, slowly and gradually, the worth of revival from the dead. Everyone loves the idea of bringing back a beloved departed friend, but there is a slippery slope from healing, to revival with the kiss of fire, to Qyburn and his experiments, to wights and the Others.

[Nerolunar]

I wanted so badly for her to have enough humanity left inside so that the amazing faithfulness of Brienne would not fail to spark some thanks and warmth.

Instead she proved what I think GRRM wants to make a clear theme of the whole saga: that while natural death is a part of every life, return from death is dangerous at best, and tends toward corruption.

From the moment I saw Lady Stoneheart among the outlaws, I was dying to know how much of human Cat was left in her. Obviously memory and mind are there, but I knew that her reaction to Brienne's unfailing attempt to fulfill her oaths to Cat would be the true test, because if stubborn, blind faith and duty, even to a dead woman, did not move her, then she was no human and only a monster. Such was proved to be the case.

Note also how Lord Beric became a little less human after being brought back - how he couldn't really remember as much before he was killed and revived at the Mummer's Ford.

GRRM is trying to show us, slowly and gradually, the worth of revival from the dead. Everyone loves the idea of bringing back a beloved departed friend, but there is a slippery slope from healing, to revival with the kiss of fire, to Qyburn and his experiments, to wights and the Others.

:agree:

[Errant Bard]

I wanted so badly for her to have enough humanity left inside so that the amazing faithfulness of Brienne would not fail to spark some thanks and warmth.

Amazing faithfulness? Brienne is working for the guy who tried to kill Bran, and for all she knows commandeered Robb's murder.

Not that Catelyn didn't show mercy: the whole BwB wanted to kill Brienne, including Long Jeyne and Gendry, but she gave Brienne the benefit of the doubt, along with a chance to prove her loyalty, and Brienne proved she was not actually loyal. It would have been Robb, Brienne would have been hanged, Jon, he'd have asked Edd for a block and beheaded her, Arya, she would have been found floating in a canal somewhere after her defense of Jaime. Tyrion would have strangled her, Tywin would have left her bones rotting in a cage.

What GRRM is showing us is that love is the bane of duty, and honour is not a good thing, on top of the usual PoV bias demonstration. Catelyn's reaction to the refusal to obey a direct order in order to protect not only the murderer of your kids but also the enemy general is normal, and even mild.

[Weirguild]

Amazing faithfulness? Brienne is working for the guy who tried to kill Bran, and for all she knows commandeered Robb's murder.

I see her still doing what she agreed to do in the first place, which was to find and help the Stark girls, if possible. She's doing all she can. Jamie only gave her Tommen's warrant to help her out, but he didn't really lay any new commands on her.

What do you call it when a person keeps trying to honor an oath, even when it seems impossible and when the person to whom she made the oath has died? I call that amazing faithfulness, in a world where a lot of people believe that words are wind. Honor is what you do even when you don't believe anyone will see you to give credit or catch you breaking faith.

[Errant Bard]

What do you call it when a person keeps trying to honor an oath, even when it seems impossible and when the person to whom she made the oath has died?

Since I cannot read minds, I call it working for the enemy since this is what it looks like and anyone can form a basic lie about doing it for some dead person. I'm not in the habit of being moved by the loyalty of someone visibly betraying me.

Incidentally, the oath she's trying to fulfill she never swore herself: it's Jaime's oath, he says as much when he gives her the sword: she is his proxy. The only thing she swore was to deliver Jaime to KL and exchange him for the girls, which she failed miserably.

The questions that are asked of her are good: what was she going to do when she found the girls? Why is Jaime Lannister free and yet Arya and Sansa are not with her? Why does she have a sword even Tywin Lannister didn't manage to get for decades? Why does she moan Jaime's first name in her dreams, when she spat the "kingslayer" and was ready to kill him when she left Riverrun? Why does she have Lannister companions? A knight working for the guy hanging the BwB member at the very moment, and Tyrion Lannister's own squire, to boot. What exactly is anyone supposed to think those two are here for, or would react if the girls were found?

But what seals the deal is the refusal to obey a direct order, if she was loyal, she would obey... To obey Catelyn: that's her oath. Anyone can fulfil an oath when it's easy to do, when it's hard is when the true loyalty test comes. Brienne fails.

[Mark Antony]

Amazing faithfulness? Brienne is working for the guy who tried to kill Bran, and for all she knows commandeered Robb's murder.

Not that Catelyn didn't show mercy: the whole BwB wanted to kill Brienne, including Long Jeyne and Gendry, but she gave Brienne the benefit of the doubt, along with a chance to prove her loyalty, and Brienne proved she was not actually loyal. It would have been Robb, Brienne would have been hanged, Jon, he'd have asked Edd for a block and beheaded her, Arya, she would have been found floating in a canal somewhere after her defense of Jaime. Tyrion would have strangled her, Tywin would have left her bones rotting in a cage.

What GRRM is showing us is that love is the bane of duty, and honour is not a good thing, on top of the usual PoV bias demonstration. Catelyn's reaction to the refusal to obey a direct order in order to protect not only the murderer of your kids but also the enemy general is normal, and even mild.

:agree:

[Weirguild]

That's cool, guys. I'm just pretty sure all zombies are evil, basically, and I see a lot of evidence for that.

[tom_saxon]

That's cool, guys. I'm just pretty sure all zombies are evil, basically, and I see a lot of evidence for that.

At first was the lol then I thought about it. Zombies aren't really evil they are just empty human bodies literally posessed by nothing other than an inquenchable appetite.

GRRM so far hasn't given us any purely good or evil characters and I don't see why he would deviate from that especially as concerns such an important and long-term character as Cat/Stoneheart.

[lavalam-003]

But what seals the deal is the refusal to obey a direct order, if she was loyal, she would obey... To obey Catelyn: that's her oath. Anyone can fulfil an oath when it's easy to do, when it's hard is when the true loyalty test comes. Brienne fails.

Couldn't disagree more with you last statement. She is obeying Catelyn. It was Brienne's duty to bring Sansa and Ayra back to Catelynn, she was only exchanging Jamie for them. Sure it falls on Jamie to and he passes it along to Brienne, but Brienne is on a mission to find and save the little girls! Obedience at it's finest

[lavalam-003]

@tom_saxon- I would say Twyin and Cersei were pretty close to pure evil in the end especially. Twyin did all he did for the better of his name and reputation, it is known. Cersei is well Cersei and does thing out of spite for others or to position herself higher in life.

[Tini]

nothing to see

[Andrewman]

That's cool, guys. I'm just pretty sure all zombies are evil, basically, and I see a lot of evidence for that.

Well, Beric was raised from the dead many times and actually was one of the more stand up knights, befriending and protecting the small folk and even giving proper trials before hanging prisoners. I mean, The Hound got to go free after winning his trial by combat.

For Lady Stoneheart, or Cat/UnCat, or whatever else you want to call her, I don't think it was the coming back to life that made her the way she is. I think it was the loss of her husband to a murderous plot, the seeming loss of her two youngest sons, and then witnessing her last son murdered. I think Robb's death was just the icing on the cake that finally made her mind snap with grief and Lady Stoneheart is what came out. The ressurection just gave her a chance.

[dkohalloran]

I don't agree with those saying that Stoneheart isn't Catelyn. Catelyn has always been known to put her emotions first and act upon them. Her quest for revenge is the ultimate one. She now believes that every single child she has birthed is dead, with the exception of Sansa who she believes is lost to the clutches of King's Landing and Cersei (When in fact she's working a really awesome plotline with Mr. Baelish). Sure, she is driven by revenge, but you have to think about her situation. Beric Dondarrion transferred his soul to hers in order to awaken her because he knew that she would be powerful and ruthless from her experiences. She has known nothing in her life but loss. Her father, husband, childhood, sister, sons, and daughters are now gone and she has nothing left but the Freys. The damn Freys... Catelyn is indeed very much alive, with the help of R'Hollor.

[dkohalloran]

@tom_saxon- I would say Twyin and Cersei were pretty close to pure evil in the end especially. Twyin did all he did for the better of his name and reputation, it is known. Cersei is well Cersei and does thing out of spite for others or to position herself higher in life.

Totally agree. In the show, Tywin is IMO portrayed as a pretty alright guy, singlehandedly from his interactions with Arya. I believe GRRM wanted us to see more of that side of Tywin from Charles Dance's beautiful acting. In the book he's definitely nothing but pure evil, does nothing redeeming and is always thinking about himself, gold, and the Lannister name.

[dkohalloran]

I wanted so badly for her to have enough humanity left inside so that the amazing faithfulness of Brienne would not fail to spark some thanks and warmth.

Instead she proved what I think GRRM wants to make a clear theme of the whole saga: that while natural death is a part of every life, return from death is dangerous at best, and tends toward corruption.

From the moment I saw Lady Stoneheart among the outlaws, I was dying to know how much of human Cat was left in her. Obviously memory and mind are there, but I knew that her reaction to Brienne's unfailing attempt to fulfill her oaths to Cat would be the true test, because if stubborn, blind faith and duty, even to a dead woman, did not move her, then she was no human and only a monster. Such was proved to be the case.

Note also how Lord Beric became a little less human after being brought back - how he couldn't really remember as much before he was killed and revived at the Mummer's Ford.

GRRM is trying to show us, slowly and gradually, the worth of revival from the dead. Everyone loves the idea of bringing back a beloved departed friend, but there is a slippery slope from healing, to revival with the kiss of fire, to Qyburn and his experiments, to wights and the Others.

True. But, you also have to remember that she saw Brienne as a loyal servant who would deliver Jamie and bring back her girl(s). She did not show up, because neither of them were in kings landing. This, Catelyn assumed the Lannisters have their hands on Brienne. She definitely assumes way too much though. I have no doubt that she will see reason with Brienne on whatever next book they're in, I don't know which one that is because I just finished AFFC.

[Errant Bard]

Catelyn has always been known to put her emotions first and act upon them.

I know I should let it pass, but... Nope, Catelyn has not been "known" to put her emotions first, at least not any more than any other character, less actually. Her "emotional" decision are always pretty rational, it's just that her goal differs from that of the teenage male hero at the time.

Should we talk of Tyrion and Shae, Tyrion and Tywin, Tywin and the Castamere or the Riverlands, Ned and Robert, Ned and Cersei, Ned and Sansa, Ned and Lyanna, Jon and Ygritte, Jon and Sam, Arya and everything, Brienne and Renly, Brienne and Jaime, Brienne and Pod, Jaime and Tyrion, Jaime and Cersei, Jaime and Brienne?

[vjott]

I know I should let it pass, but... Nope, Catelyn has not been "known" to put her emotions first, at least not any more than any other character, less actually. Her "emotional" decision are always pretty rational, it's just that her goal differs from that of the teenage male hero at the time.

Should we talk of Tyrion and Shae, Tyrion and Tywin, Tywin and the Castamere or the Riverlands, Ned and Robert, Ned and Cersei, Ned and Sansa, Ned and Lyanna, Jon and Ygritte, Jon and Sam, Arya and everything, Brienne and Renly, Brienne and Jaime, Brienne and Pod, Jaime and Tyrion, Jaime and Cersei, Jaime and Brienne?

Pretty rational? Arresting Tyrion without solid evidence and taking him into custody? Letting Jaime go for the shadow of a possibility?

[Dragon Blood]

Not a massive fan of this 'rising from the dead' stuff...

I know it's fantasy and that, but so far I've felt that GRRM has kept a great sense of realism to the series so far so was disappointed when he introduced the zombie Catelyn towards the end of the book - the Dondarrion drama about him not being able to be killed was a little different, as it was mainly heresay and rumour.

If people can just return from the dead, it makes you think that 'oh well, if someone dies they can always just come back...'

Hasn't really spoiled the book, it's still awesome but just hope this kind of stuff is kept to a minimal!