Cersei - feminist character, or not?

[Winter's Knight]

One other thing: the D&E stories reveal that men can free themselves of their wives by sending them to the Silent Sisters.

The Great Bastards too. King Aegon promised to raise him to the Kingsguard, so Fireball made his wife join the silent sisters, only by the time a place came open, King Aegon was dead and King Daeron named Ser Willam Wylde instead.

[Lyanna Stark]

One other thing: the D&E stories reveal that men can free themselves of their wives by sending them to the Silent Sisters.

Further, we have Renly working on getting Robert to put Cersei aside in favour of Margaery, so there is clearly a procedure for "getting rid of" unwanted wives.

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

One other thing: the D&E stories reveal that men can free themselves of their wives by sending them to the Silent Sisters.

Wow.

[Kolantero]

Well, lets examine men's career choices then, for a comparison. If we assume that men then makes a choice to avoid an arranged marriage and find an alternate career, which was the original point discussed.

Men can become:

Sellswords

Join other lords as part of their retinue of knights/men at arms

Septons (including High Septon)

Maesters

singers (we have seen no female singers in Westeros)

join the Nights Watch

Women can become:

Septas (but not High Septon)

Silent Sisters

Prostitutes

Women can also become sellswords if they have the skill (although they will face prejudice and their family may not encourage training)

Men at at arms and knights are essentially the same thing as sellsword, just more permament. Brienne was one for Renly

High Septons being male-only might say much about how women are viewed in the religion but it doesn't say much in the question of available choices since it is just one position to be occupied by a single person

Joining the NW to freeze to death while fighting wildlings (and others) in the company of rapists, murderers etc isn't much of a choice. In fact i could argue that a man can be forced or coerced to join the NW (something that cannot be done with women) if his family wants to get rid of him, if for example there are too many males in a noble house or in other cases like Sam

So essentially its singers (not sure though) and maesters vs prostitutes and silent sisters. The only one of these that isn't bad/require special talent (singing) is maesters. Sure, men do have it better generally when it comes to choices but the gap isn't nearly as much as presented

As we see with Stannis and Selyse though Stannis is unhappy in his marriage, but he uses his power as a man and a lord to just avoid his wife and to also avoid having to share a bed with her. (Instead he shares a bed with Melisandre.)

A woman in the same situation does not have that possibility, hence why Cersei had to submit to marital rape and why she constantly tried to avoid Robert having sex with her against her will.

Agreed, i don't doubt the power relationship which (usually) exists inside noble houses. My comments were on the choice in marriage. But to be fair there are many cases where a woman is "the head of the house" (Lady Olenna) despite social conventions. In Genna Lannister's case for example, even if her husband wasn't an idiot he would still not be able to "control" her because of her character and since Genna's family is much more powerful.

[Arkantos]

They also send troublesome men to the Night's Watch, it's just a case of people having the power to do what they want.

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

Well, lets examine men's career choices then, for a comparison. If we assume that men then makes a choice to avoid an arranged marriage and find an alternate career, which was the original point discussed.

Men can become:

Sellswords

Join other lords as part of their retinue of knights/men at arms

Septons (including High Septon)

Maesters

singers (we have seen no female singers in Westeros)

join the Nights Watch

Women can become:

Septas (but not High Septon)

Silent Sisters

Prostitutes

Wetnurses as well

Also I think singers are only male because they tend to travel alone, and women are vulnerable on the road. I wouldn't be surprised if they appear at organized gatherings such as tournaments with troupes, or mummers such as the pupeteer from The Hedge Knight.

[Lyanna Stark]

Women can also become sellswords if they have the skill (although they will face prejudice and their family may not encourage training)

I actually think that Brienne and Pretty Meris illustrate how extremely difficult it is for women in general to become sellswords. Plus as you state, how to get the proper training to join? Not to mention that women of smaller stature will most likely at least not be able to fight Westerosi style. Brienne can because she is uncommonly tall and strong, but for your average woman? I doubt that is a realistic possibility.

Wetnurses as well

Also I think singers are only male because they tend to travel alone, and women are vulnerable on the road. I wouldn't be surprised if they appear at organized gatherings such as tournaments with troupes, or mummers such as the pupeteer from The Hedge Knight.

Again probably not a profession a woman born into the nobility would consider.

Agreed, i don't doubt the power relationship which (usually) exists inside noble houses. My comments were on the choice in marriage. But to be fair there are many cases where a woman is "the head of the house" (Lady Olenna) despite social conventions. In Genna Lannister's case for example, even if her husband wasn't an idiot he would still not be able to "control" her because of her character and since Genna's family is much more powerful.

I'm not sure there are *many* examples. The ones we see are Genna and Olenna, and Genna manages since she is of significantly higher social status than her Frey husband (and he's pretty dumb, too) so Genna's social standing protects her in ways most women probably cannot hope for.

Genna was only married to a Frey since Tytos Lannister was too weak to negotiate a good marriage for her. Had she got a husband of more "equal" standing, she could not have used her social status in such a way.

[Arkantos]

They didn't bat an eyelid at Mance and his 'family' of singers. Must not be too odd to have female musicians.

I actually think that Brienne and Pretty Meris illustrate how extremely difficult it is for women in general to become sellswords. Plus as you state, how to get the proper training to join? Not to mention that women of smaller stature will most likely at least not be able to fight Westerosi style. Brienne can because she is uncommonly tall and strong, but for your average woman? I doubt that is a realistic possibility.

That's not the fault of the Westerosi, that's just the same problem all Crannogmen face when it comes to combat.

[Kolantero]

One other thing: the D&E stories reveal that men can free themselves of their wives by sending them to the Silent Sisters.

There is no definite proof that men generally can do that. If this was generally allowed or if it was common practice we would probably hear more about in the books. It seems like a special case since he wanted to join the KG. Perhaps he got special permission from the king. Or "made his wife..." might be talking about other means like threatening her. Or perhaps he had too much influence over her.

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

Again probably not a profession a woman born into the nobility would consider.

Hmmm, well you listed prositute, so I assumed you meant all possibilities. I can't see many women choosing prositute over wetnurse. If it's a noblewoman, being a handmaiden is also an option.

[Daario's*before*Snows]

Women can become Faceless Men. and hold high positions within most religions.

[Lyanna Stark]

That's not the fault of the Westerosi, that's just the same problem all Crannogmen face when it comes to combat.

Whether it is their choice or not is hardly relevant as it prevents them fairly efficiently from becoming sellswords.

Hmmm, well you listed prositute, so I assumed you meant all possibilities. I can't see many women choosing prositute over wetnurse. If it's a noblewoman, being a handmaiden is also an option.

Yep, I amended the list to include male prostitutes too, although I also made the comment that neither would most likely be a palatable option for someone nobly born, regardless of gender. Handmaiden seems to be servants though, so in that case you are reducing a nobly born woman to the role of a commoner. Which is certainly a possibility, but hardly a first choice. Nor do I know how popular it would be to take on a disgraced noblewoman as a servant. Probably not very.

Women can become Faceless Men. and hold high positions within most religions.

Women can become Faceless Men, but the Kindly Man also mentions that it is unusual.

I am not sure which religions you are thinking of? The Seven? Rh'llor? The drowned God? The Black Goat of Qohor?

[Daario's*before*Snows]

Most any noble will bring a rare skillset to the workforce. Knowing how to read and write, exposure to government and politics.

[PatrickStormborn]

I don't think Olenna is the "head of the House" or even particularly empowered. Mace is still the one calling all the shots for the Tyrells - Olenna is just forced to clean up his mess.

[Arkantos]

Whether it is their choice or not is hardly relevant as it prevents them fairly efficiently from becoming sellswords.

But that's an inequality that you can't change and therefore you can't really complain about it can you?

Some people are smaller than others, some people are more intelligent, why is this being brought up in a thread about unequal treatment of women specifically?

[juanml82]

Further, we have Renly working on getting Robert to put Cersei aside in favour of Margaery, so there is clearly a procedure for "getting rid of" unwanted wives.

I've always thought that meant 'poison'

About Stannis and his wife, we don't actually know if they don't have sex because Stannis doesn't want. It might be the other way around, both of them might be homosexual, they might have made a common agreement - maybe neither of them fancies the other. Or maybe Stannis forbids her from having a paramour while he's secretly whoring his way around. House Florent would have something to say about that, though.

About professions, rich women have options, as long as they forgo their place among the nobility. And that's actually fine: there is a social contract in feudal societies. If one of the members (say, a highborn lady) doesn't want to fulfill her part of the bargain, I don't see why she should reap the benefits. Want freedom to marry a stableboy? Ok, marry him. But sell your jewels to buy a stable and live as a stable woman. Want to marry a lesser lord instead of the future Hand of the King? Go ahead, but enjoy the Fingers.

[Castel]

Further, we have Renly working on getting Robert to put Cersei aside in favour of Margaery, so there is clearly a procedure for "getting rid of" unwanted wives.

It's probably in the book that Lord Randyll got his "get rid of problem children" guide from.

[Daario's*before*Snows]

Women can become Faceless Men, but the Kindly Man also mentions that it is unusual.

I am not sure which religions you are thinking of? The Seven? Rh'llor? The drowned God? The Black Goat of Qohor?

Yes Mel has a position of authority within her religion she has a voice. A Septa is a respected position.

We really cant say for sure about the FM, i havent seen anything to prove they have a bias against women.

[Gar Weg Wun Sygerrik]

Nor do I know how popular it would be to take on a disgraced noblewoman as a servant. Probably not very.

A disgraced women is unlikely to be taken on as a handmaiden just as a nobleman who is abandoning the wishes of his father is unlikely to be taken by ANY house for any task for fear of reprisal or loss of favor, so there goes squire, man at arms, knight, retainer.

[Kolantero]

I actually think that Brienne and Pretty Meris illustrate how extremely difficult it is for women in general to become sellswords. Plus as you state, how to get the proper training to join? Not to mention that women of smaller stature will most likely at least not be able to fight Westerosi style. Brienne can because she is uncommonly tall and strong, but for your average woman? I doubt that is a realistic possibility.

I still think it is a realistic possibility. Afterall, plenty of sellswords were born poor and didn't receive much training either. As for the difference in stature, it doesn't really have anything to do with society. Also there are examples of speed vs strength (Bronn, Oberyn) and speed wins both times (Oberyn had Gregor pinned down, he just got arrogant at the end)

I'm not sure there are *many* examples. The ones we see are Genna and Olenna, and Genna manages since she is of significantly higher social status than her Frey husband (and he's pretty dumb, too) so Genna's social standing protects her in ways most women probably cannot hope for.

Genna was only married to a Frey since Tytos Lannister was too weak to negotiate a good marriage for her. Had she got a husband of more "equal" standing, she could not have used her social status in such a way.

True if everything else is equal (intelligence, character, family status etc) a man would probably be able to dominate the relationship if he wanted to based on social conventions.